Set me straight on pump gas
05-22-2013, 07:46 AM
#121
He doesn't even do his own tuning...
I see this as a high compression vs low compression debate...93 will make more power with less effort just like high compression until you get to the point where you can't control knock due to the octane rating. That's where low compression/ e85 is able to make more power because you are able to make a higher HP number because you can add more timing and boost pressure before you get to the same uncontrollable detonation...
I see this as a high compression vs low compression debate...93 will make more power with less effort just like high compression until you get to the point where you can't control knock due to the octane rating. That's where low compression/ e85 is able to make more power because you are able to make a higher HP number because you can add more timing and boost pressure before you get to the same uncontrollable detonation...
05-22-2013, 08:48 AM
#122
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Apparently none of you are still grasping what I'm saying. This is hopeless. Keep dumping more fuel through your engine and saying it is a miracle fuel because it makes more power, then say I am wrong for saying more fuel will make more power. Retards. I had this same argument with my tuner today and at first he said the same things you guys were. until he stopped for a minute and got his head out of "e85 is god" mode and looked at it from a basic flow vs hp standpoint that I have been. As he said himself, lb for lb it will not and cannot make the same power. It takes 30% higher flow. I don't see how you guys are not getting this. I guess everyone is stuck in that "add 30% automatically" mindset over whatever the gas number is.Diesel has 129,500BTU/Gallon
Pump gas is 114,500BTU/Gallon
I can make the same power using 13% LESS Diesel
Waste vegetable oil is a whole different bag of worms.
They could make the same power using less than half the quantity of pump gas?
The point everyone else and I are trying to make is this. If you can force an unlimited amount of air into your motor via turbo/supercharger and if you can add enough fuel via huge fuel pumps and injectors, the limiting factor in making horsepower will be detonation. The fuel that prevents detonation best will make the most HP.
I am looking forward to seeing your Dyno numbers with e85.
This is a good read. http://www.smokemup.com/tech/fuels.php
05-22-2013, 09:54 AM
#123
Read and repeat after me....O-C-T-A-N-E is what determines how much cylinder pressure can be utilized for a given amount of volumetric efficiency.
E85 has more O-C-T-A-N-E than pump gas there for more cylinder pressure can be utilized with it to make....MORE POWER.
It does not matter how much more volume it takes to do so.
No one cares about your dyno test either and your tuner agreed with you so he didn't lose a customer from your idiotic argument. Plain and simple.
Now, if your tuner really thinks he can make or his customers can make more power on pump gas than E85, you need to find a new tuner. While you're at it you may want to find a new brain for yourself as well because yours doesn't seem to operate with any type of common sense.
E85 has more O-C-T-A-N-E than pump gas there for more cylinder pressure can be utilized with it to make....MORE POWER.
It does not matter how much more volume it takes to do so.
No one cares about your dyno test either and your tuner agreed with you so he didn't lose a customer from your idiotic argument. Plain and simple.
Now, if your tuner really thinks he can make or his customers can make more power on pump gas than E85, you need to find a new tuner. While you're at it you may want to find a new brain for yourself as well because yours doesn't seem to operate with any type of common sense.
05-22-2013, 10:43 AM
#125
Bit of a respost...but maybe this is his tuner who agrees with him ? Got some great gear 
http://www.kalecoauto.com/
http://www.kalecoauto.com/
05-22-2013, 11:32 AM
#126
By your energy density argument I'm going to start running #2 diesel in my TT CTS-V,
Diesel has 129,500BTU/Gallon
Pump gas is 114,500BTU/Gallon
I can make the same power using 13% LESS Diesel
You've mentioned corn oil several times, I assume you're just being sarcastic... Ethanol is distilled from fermented sugars, it's alcohol, you can make it from almost anything with sugars/starches not just corn.
Waste vegetable oil is a whole different bag of worms.
I'd like to see the statistics for drag week too. But one thing we all know is top fuel dragsters use nitromethane, with only 47,000 BTU/gal.
They could make the same power using less than half the quantity of pump gas?
The point everyone else and I are trying to make is this. If you can force an unlimited amount of air into your motor via turbo/supercharger and if you can add enough fuel via huge fuel pumps and injectors, the limiting factor in making horsepower will be detonation. The fuel that prevents detonation best will make the most HP.
I am looking forward to seeing your Dyno numbers with e85.
This is a good read. http://www.smokemup.com/tech/fuels.php
Diesel has 129,500BTU/Gallon
Pump gas is 114,500BTU/Gallon
I can make the same power using 13% LESS Diesel
You've mentioned corn oil several times, I assume you're just being sarcastic... Ethanol is distilled from fermented sugars, it's alcohol, you can make it from almost anything with sugars/starches not just corn.
Waste vegetable oil is a whole different bag of worms.
I'd like to see the statistics for drag week too. But one thing we all know is top fuel dragsters use nitromethane, with only 47,000 BTU/gal.
They could make the same power using less than half the quantity of pump gas?
The point everyone else and I are trying to make is this. If you can force an unlimited amount of air into your motor via turbo/supercharger and if you can add enough fuel via huge fuel pumps and injectors, the limiting factor in making horsepower will be detonation. The fuel that prevents detonation best will make the most HP.
I am looking forward to seeing your Dyno numbers with e85.
This is a good read. http://www.smokemup.com/tech/fuels.php
In your sarcastic manner you have actually understood my point on the fuel density. Diesel engines run purely off of compression, completely eliminating worries of knock.
And as for the "corn" statement, yes. Although when it is someone making big power numbers, it seems to be perfectly acceptable for it to be reffered to as "corn". But either way, I could care less what it is made from.
And again, this is what Martin and all the others ARE NOT GETTING. I know it has a higher octane. I KNOW THAT MARTIN, YOU READ THIS? I KNOW.
Let me put it this way, maybe to get some of the e85 kryptonite mentality out of your heads and into a more understandable form;
You have a setup tuned and maximized on pump gas. You switch to race gas for the octane properties, but reduce the flow of it by 30%. you mean to tell me you will still make more power simply due to octane and increased timing? I think not. again, you may break even at best. We all know what it will do in an equal flow setup, and have seen it proven time and time again that it will make more power. But reducing the flow by 1/3rd is going to have drastic effects. I don't see why this is such a hard concept to grasp. I guess all the hype about this stuff has really clouded some minds about basic engine properties. According to the e85 mentality, 4 cylinders should make the same power as v8s because it isn't about flow volume, it's about timing right? Isn't that what you guys have been saying? Now, take a step back and really think about it instead of coming in here blasting someone because it seems like the cool thing to do because Martin is doing it.
BTW guys, be sure to ask him about how you can make more power out of your LS with a carb. It is such the way to go that 0 out of the 5 fastest all motor LSX cars in the country run one!
05-22-2013, 01:26 PM
#128
badhombre, you seem to be hung up on the amount of fuel and the amount of energy / unit volume. Let’s look at this from a tuning / afr viewpoint.
The stoich afr for gasoline is approx 14.63:1 (lambda = 1)
The stoich afr of e85 is approx 9.76:1 (lambda = 1)
When tuning idle/cruise you aim for lambda =1 (regardless of fuel type.)
When tuning WOT you aim for lambda = 0.75-0.8 (regardless of fuel type.)
Will E85 require more fuel to achieve the same lambda values? Sure, but who cares!
In one of your posts you said by flowing an equivalent amount of gasoline to equal the amount of E85 that you could make the same power (or more). In order to keep the lambda values the same you would have to add more air (via boost). That’s great in theory but you eventually reach a point when the engine becomes knock limited and you cannot add any more boost.
Looking at it another way:
You tune your engine to the max power level with gasoline (lambda =0.75-0.8 and a certain combination of boost and timing). You cannot make anymore than this level because you have reached the knock limit of the engine. Now you switch to E85 and (although the combination will require more fuel) you will be able to increase the power by adding boost, timing, or a combination of both.
In summary, if you properly tune you engine to the correct lambda values (ignoring the amount of fuel required) then E85 will allow more power to be produced due to the extra knock resistance and cooling properties.
The stoich afr for gasoline is approx 14.63:1 (lambda = 1)
The stoich afr of e85 is approx 9.76:1 (lambda = 1)
When tuning idle/cruise you aim for lambda =1 (regardless of fuel type.)
When tuning WOT you aim for lambda = 0.75-0.8 (regardless of fuel type.)
Will E85 require more fuel to achieve the same lambda values? Sure, but who cares!
In one of your posts you said by flowing an equivalent amount of gasoline to equal the amount of E85 that you could make the same power (or more). In order to keep the lambda values the same you would have to add more air (via boost). That’s great in theory but you eventually reach a point when the engine becomes knock limited and you cannot add any more boost.
Looking at it another way:
You tune your engine to the max power level with gasoline (lambda =0.75-0.8 and a certain combination of boost and timing). You cannot make anymore than this level because you have reached the knock limit of the engine. Now you switch to E85 and (although the combination will require more fuel) you will be able to increase the power by adding boost, timing, or a combination of both.
In summary, if you properly tune you engine to the correct lambda values (ignoring the amount of fuel required) then E85 will allow more power to be produced due to the extra knock resistance and cooling properties.
05-22-2013, 01:41 PM
#129
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Does any one else think this guy is messing with us? Badhombre, one question. What types of fuel is used in most all kinds of professional racing? Like funny cars, top fuel, or even just record holding drag racers?
05-22-2013, 02:47 PM
#131
He didn't even upgrade his injectors when running regular gas.........
He's the local laughing stock of the area and has a few of his "Buddies" that let him think that he's on top....Every time something funny comes up we refer to him using his Stock injectors, Used turbo, Shitty truck, Back yard engineering. Hopefully this thread opens his eyes that the joke is on him.......
Oh btw
Carb's on LSX engines ******* blow
He's the local laughing stock of the area and has a few of his "Buddies" that let him think that he's on top....Every time something funny comes up we refer to him using his Stock injectors, Used turbo, Shitty truck, Back yard engineering. Hopefully this thread opens his eyes that the joke is on him.......
Oh btw
Carb's on LSX engines ******* blow
05-22-2013, 03:38 PM
#133
He didn't even upgrade his injectors when running regular gas.........
He's the local laughing stock of the area and has a few of his "Buddies" that let him think that he's on top....Every time something funny comes up we refer to him using his Stock injectors, Used turbo, Shitty truck, Back yard engineering. Hopefully this thread opens his eyes that the joke is on him.......
Oh btw
Carb's on LSX engines ******* blow
He's the local laughing stock of the area and has a few of his "Buddies" that let him think that he's on top....Every time something funny comes up we refer to him using his Stock injectors, Used turbo, Shitty truck, Back yard engineering. Hopefully this thread opens his eyes that the joke is on him.......
Oh btw
Carb's on LSX engines ******* blow
dumbass. I can't wait to watch your face as you count cash into my hand. All you know about my setup is what I have told you and what I have chosen to post. Only a select few know what I actually have going on. they were really laughing when my "exhaust and tune" only ws6 walked a well modded ls3 camaro, and a 450 whp cobra. Oh and if any pieces of rust come off and hit your car, I'm sorry. But hey its just an old truck with a bunch of used parts right? You might wanna do a little less running your mouth and a little more working on your car. Talk **** when you have a running car.
badhombre, you seem to be hung up on the amount of fuel and the amount of energy / unit volume. Let’s look at this from a tuning / afr viewpoint.
The stoich afr for gasoline is approx 14.63:1 (lambda = 1)
The stoich afr of e85 is approx 9.76:1 (lambda = 1)
When tuning idle/cruise you aim for lambda =1 (regardless of fuel type.)
When tuning WOT you aim for lambda = 0.75-0.8 (regardless of fuel type.)
Will E85 require more fuel to achieve the same lambda values? Sure, but who cares!
In one of your posts you said by flowing an equivalent amount of gasoline to equal the amount of E85 that you could make the same power (or more). In order to keep the lambda values the same you would have to add more air (via boost). That’s great in theory but you eventually reach a point when the engine becomes knock limited and you cannot add any more boost.
Looking at it another way:
You tune your engine to the max power level with gasoline (lambda =0.75-0.8 and a certain combination of boost and timing). You cannot make anymore than this level because you have reached the knock limit of the engine. Now you switch to E85 and (although the combination will require more fuel) you will be able to increase the power by adding boost, timing, or a combination of both.
In summary, if you properly tune you engine to the correct lambda values (ignoring the amount of fuel required) then E85 will allow more power to be produced due to the extra knock resistance and cooling properties.
The stoich afr for gasoline is approx 14.63:1 (lambda = 1)
The stoich afr of e85 is approx 9.76:1 (lambda = 1)
When tuning idle/cruise you aim for lambda =1 (regardless of fuel type.)
When tuning WOT you aim for lambda = 0.75-0.8 (regardless of fuel type.)
Will E85 require more fuel to achieve the same lambda values? Sure, but who cares!
In one of your posts you said by flowing an equivalent amount of gasoline to equal the amount of E85 that you could make the same power (or more). In order to keep the lambda values the same you would have to add more air (via boost). That’s great in theory but you eventually reach a point when the engine becomes knock limited and you cannot add any more boost.
Looking at it another way:
You tune your engine to the max power level with gasoline (lambda =0.75-0.8 and a certain combination of boost and timing). You cannot make anymore than this level because you have reached the knock limit of the engine. Now you switch to E85 and (although the combination will require more fuel) you will be able to increase the power by adding boost, timing, or a combination of both.
In summary, if you properly tune you engine to the correct lambda values (ignoring the amount of fuel required) then E85 will allow more power to be produced due to the extra knock resistance and cooling properties.
Martin only an IDIOT like you still doesn't understand the point of my experiment. That on an EQUAL fuel system, the e85 will not make more power than the gasoline. It make equalize or come close due to the cooling effects and timing, but without adding that 30% of volume, you will not be gaining anything. I cringed enough at the price of 80lb injectors. I saw the price of 120's and higher and was glad I didn't need those. Also that means adding a second pump, on top of losing gas mileage. So it all comes down to cost effectiveness, which to some of you apparently isn't an issue. But for us normal guys who drive our cars, it is a concern. But if you have an unlimited budget, sure, do like one creative member already suggested, run 8 pumps with garden hoses straight into your intake full of e85 and make 450,000 hp!
05-22-2013, 03:42 PM
#134
Wait isn't your truck not running and best run a 7.9 on a 150 shot?
Your ***** weak your knowledge is well.....Not there. and your truck will NOT keep up with my car I'm going to pick up a transmission right now and it will be in the car this weekend.... Yeah you're right what do I know? You ask LS1tech about everything that goes into your truck......How did blowing a turbo to pieces go? Using stock injectors go? how did your 150 shot go barley running into the high 7's?
I'll take your rent money no worries
Your ***** weak your knowledge is well.....Not there. and your truck will NOT keep up with my car I'm going to pick up a transmission right now and it will be in the car this weekend.... Yeah you're right what do I know? You ask LS1tech about everything that goes into your truck......How did blowing a turbo to pieces go? Using stock injectors go? how did your 150 shot go barley running into the high 7's?
I'll take your rent money no worries
05-22-2013, 04:00 PM
#136
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badhombre, you seem to be hung up on the amount of fuel and the amount of energy / unit volume. Let’s look at this from a tuning / afr viewpoint.
The stoich afr for gasoline is approx 14.63:1 (lambda = 1)
The stoich afr of e85 is approx 9.76:1 (lambda = 1)
When tuning idle/cruise you aim for lambda =1 (regardless of fuel type.)
When tuning WOT you aim for lambda = 0.75-0.8 (regardless of fuel type.)
Will E85 require more fuel to achieve the same lambda values? Sure, but who cares!
In one of your posts you said by flowing an equivalent amount of gasoline to equal the amount of E85 that you could make the same power (or more). In order to keep the lambda values the same you would have to add more air (via boost). That’s great in theory but you eventually reach a point when the engine becomes knock limited and you cannot add any more boost.
Looking at it another way:
You tune your engine to the max power level with gasoline (lambda =0.75-0.8 and a certain combination of boost and timing). You cannot make anymore than this level because you have reached the knock limit of the engine. Now you switch to E85 and (although the combination will require more fuel) you will be able to increase the power by adding boost, timing, or a combination of both.
In summary, if you properly tune you engine to the correct lambda values (ignoring the amount of fuel required) then E85 will allow more power to be produced due to the extra knock resistance and cooling properties.
The stoich afr for gasoline is approx 14.63:1 (lambda = 1)
The stoich afr of e85 is approx 9.76:1 (lambda = 1)
When tuning idle/cruise you aim for lambda =1 (regardless of fuel type.)
When tuning WOT you aim for lambda = 0.75-0.8 (regardless of fuel type.)
Will E85 require more fuel to achieve the same lambda values? Sure, but who cares!
In one of your posts you said by flowing an equivalent amount of gasoline to equal the amount of E85 that you could make the same power (or more). In order to keep the lambda values the same you would have to add more air (via boost). That’s great in theory but you eventually reach a point when the engine becomes knock limited and you cannot add any more boost.
Looking at it another way:
You tune your engine to the max power level with gasoline (lambda =0.75-0.8 and a certain combination of boost and timing). You cannot make anymore than this level because you have reached the knock limit of the engine. Now you switch to E85 and (although the combination will require more fuel) you will be able to increase the power by adding boost, timing, or a combination of both.
In summary, if you properly tune you engine to the correct lambda values (ignoring the amount of fuel required) then E85 will allow more power to be produced due to the extra knock resistance and cooling properties.
/thread
05-22-2013, 04:19 PM
#137
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No one is arguing that a maxed out fuel system on gasoline will make more power on E-85. What you don't seem to understand, is that a maxed out fuel system on E-85 will have the ability to run more boost and timing, so much more, that gasoline would not be able to match the power output without detonating. If you try to add the 30% more fuel in a gasoline setup you will not make the same power, because you will detonate, or be so low on timing to compensate that your power will drop.
05-22-2013, 04:57 PM
#138
Martin only an IDIOT like you still doesn't understand the point of my experiment. That on an EQUAL fuel system, the e85 will not make more power than the gasoline. It make equalize or come close due to the cooling effects and timing, but without adding that 30% of volume, you will not be gaining anything. I cringed enough at the price of 80lb injectors. I saw the price of 120's and higher and was glad I didn't need those. Also that means adding a second pump, on top of losing gas mileage. So it all comes down to cost effectiveness, which to some of you apparently isn't an issue. But for us normal guys who drive our cars, it is a concern. But if you have an unlimited budget, sure, do like one creative member already suggested, run 8 pumps with garden hoses straight into your intake full of e85 and make 450,000 hp!
05-22-2013, 05:34 PM
#140
yep you got me...
dumbass. I can't wait to watch your face as you count cash into my hand. All you know about my setup is what I have told you and what I have chosen to post. Only a select few know what I actually have going on. they were really laughing when my "exhaust and tune" only ws6 walked a well modded ls3 camaro, and a 450 whp cobra. Oh and if any pieces of rust come off and hit your car, I'm sorry. But hey its just an old truck with a bunch of used parts right? You might wanna do a little less running your mouth and a little more working on your car. Talk **** when you have a running car.
See, this guy is understands what I am getting at. But again you come back to the solution of "just add more e85 to make more power". This is what I have been saying the whole time and no one here seems to have the mental capacity to understand it. SO, you mean to tell me it takes MORE fuel to make MORE power? Apparently those are fighting words to some "experienced" members in this thread.
Martin only an IDIOT like you still doesn't understand the point of my experiment. That on an EQUAL fuel system, the e85 will not make more power than the gasoline. It make equalize or come close due to the cooling effects and timing, but without adding that 30% of volume, you will not be gaining anything. I cringed enough at the price of 80lb injectors. I saw the price of 120's and higher and was glad I didn't need those. Also that means adding a second pump, on top of losing gas mileage. So it all comes down to cost effectiveness, which to some of you apparently isn't an issue. But for us normal guys who drive our cars, it is a concern. But if you have an unlimited budget, sure, do like one creative member already suggested, run 8 pumps with garden hoses straight into your intake full of e85 and make 450,000 hp!
dumbass. I can't wait to watch your face as you count cash into my hand. All you know about my setup is what I have told you and what I have chosen to post. Only a select few know what I actually have going on. they were really laughing when my "exhaust and tune" only ws6 walked a well modded ls3 camaro, and a 450 whp cobra. Oh and if any pieces of rust come off and hit your car, I'm sorry. But hey its just an old truck with a bunch of used parts right? You might wanna do a little less running your mouth and a little more working on your car. Talk **** when you have a running car.
See, this guy is understands what I am getting at. But again you come back to the solution of "just add more e85 to make more power". This is what I have been saying the whole time and no one here seems to have the mental capacity to understand it. SO, you mean to tell me it takes MORE fuel to make MORE power? Apparently those are fighting words to some "experienced" members in this thread.
Martin only an IDIOT like you still doesn't understand the point of my experiment. That on an EQUAL fuel system, the e85 will not make more power than the gasoline. It make equalize or come close due to the cooling effects and timing, but without adding that 30% of volume, you will not be gaining anything. I cringed enough at the price of 80lb injectors. I saw the price of 120's and higher and was glad I didn't need those. Also that means adding a second pump, on top of losing gas mileage. So it all comes down to cost effectiveness, which to some of you apparently isn't an issue. But for us normal guys who drive our cars, it is a concern. But if you have an unlimited budget, sure, do like one creative member already suggested, run 8 pumps with garden hoses straight into your intake full of e85 and make 450,000 hp!
Zack