Only a complete idiot would suggest that dumping more fuel in forever makes more power.

If you cant understand that, then it's hardly worth the effort trying to make you understand.

Sometimes fools get ideas into their heads, and no matter how much truth or fact you try and tell them, they'll still listen to bullshit and believe it because it's what they want to hear and agrees with their delusional thinking.

 

i believe he is making a point that e85 produces less btu's than gasoline, therefore needing 1/3 more fuel system to make the same power.

 

Man, I can't believe I'm actually bringing myself to an elementary level to explain this, but since I've been "called out" I'll bite.

Do you understand the simple fundamentals of octane ratings? Is 93 octane pump gas not 93 octane? Of course it takes added fuel to make more power with added volumetric efficiency. BUT there comes a point that with the cylinder pressures needed to create these higher VE's that the octane of the fuel you're using can't quench detonation. You seem to just not understand this or totally ignorant to the fact that there is only so much detonation resistance for a given octane. Of course adding more boost and adding more fuel to go with it will make more power, but when you have a fuel like E85 where you can increase compression, increase boost and increase timing to levels that pump gas would never tolerate, you tell me which one will make more power? The one with more octane will!

You seem stuck on the fact that you have to add more of it. You're right it has a lower BTU rating BUT it still has a higher OCTANE RATING! Just like methanol. If pump gas was so great, why the hell do we even run race gas or methanol in the first place?!?!

If you can't understand this, you should sit back and read a few books or do something other than spew this kind of nonsense.
I was there on cam day. I can lay claim to having my cams in some of the fastest LS powered vehicles in the country as well as some of the most powerful. What can you lay claim to? I'm 25 years old and can grind a cam as well as some of the guys that have been in this game for 20 years. I am very proud of that so thank you for the compliment.

I question how much reading comprehension you have not to be able to see that everyone in that thread on YB is agreeing with me! Because of the higher concentrations of oxygen and it's higher octane rating....E85 allows the use of more timing advance, more compression, higher boost levels and it allows for cooler in cylinder combustion temps! All things that pump gas CANNOT do! E85 will make more power EVERY SINGLE TIME over pump gas and even most race fuels!!! Tell me again how pump gas can make more power over E85 or race fuel by just adding more fuel? I'm honestly not sure whether I should still be shocked by your posts because they are so out in left field it's frightening honestly.

It all comes down to this. If you can't wrap your head around higher octane ratings have more detonation resistance which allows for more compression, timing advance and boost to be utilized, then you'll never understand any of this. This is quite elementary and the fact that you're arguing such is sad.

 

This statement is quite clear. It says he has no clue how power is made, or what the fuel does.

 

I understand the whole octane and increased timing aspect. I get that, and I understand volumetric efficiency and octane. That is great an all, BUT you are still not seeing what I am saying, which you still have not proven to be "incorrect". As stated EVERYWHERE you must increase fuel system capacity and use much more fuel to make the same power you made at a set boost level on pump gas. So you're telling me that you will make more power by just adding timing to an e85 setup than being able to flow 20% more pump gas (and matching air) through the engine? when you break it down into simplest form, the engine is an air pump. Plain and simple. The more air/fuel you flow through it, the more power it will make. PERIOD. you can tune the efficiency of the setup through timing. The only real advantage I have seen to it is being able to run non-intercooled. and even then, people are able to run about the timing levels an intercooled gas setup

By your theory, I should be able to put e85 in my setup with stock injectors and make more power than if I ran pump gas on 36# injectors. And as discussed int he other thread, without upgrading the fuel system, it would be hard to make the same power numbers because you will not be able to flow as much fuel. You are then compensating with timing to be able to make the same power.
Now do you see how your argument looks? I'm sorry but you lost all credibility with me with the carb debate, and this one isn't helping. Maybe I should run a carb with e85 and defy all physics and have the fastest thing ever! I'm done here.
Bottom line, I am staying far away from the stuff. I have seen too many negatives out of it for the few positives I have seen. You boys have fun with that vegetable oil. I like driving mine

 

No point going any further. If someone doesnt understand and cannot understand, there is little point trying to explain it as they live in their own little world.


In terms of making power...only that same idiot would refuse the option of using E85 like you have done. That in itself speaks volumes.

 

On the money!!!

 

Anyone who is confused by this thread, please disregard all posts made by this member.

Also the added fuel volume required by e85 isn't to "make the same power", it's simply to achieve an identical air fuel ratio as an identical set up on gas would. Due to its oxygenation, higher octane and cooling properties E85 will make MORE power on the same boost level. Then, you're able to add more timing on top of that and you're able to make even more power than you would on gas.

If you dont or can't understand this, please stop confusing others who may not know for themselves either.

 

so after all is said and done i think if he wants to run pump gas he needs to do a meth kit no??? haha

 

Ya I'm still trying to get an idea on how much power I can make from the pump .

 

depends on your compression, cam, dynamic compression, iat's, timing etc...theres no magic number

tune and run it to find out

 

That might be the dumbest statement I've ever read on ls1tech ......

 

Well ****. Looks like im going back to pump gas.

 

I shall keep this and quote it, it's perfect and can be used many times LOL.

 

Thats exactly what i was thinking/gathering. Im glad i was right. Hypothetically speaking, if a car was properly tuned to a specific air fuel ratio on 93 pump, how much would it differ by running the same tune with e85 or vice versa?

 

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING!!! E85 AFR requires more fuel to acheive a stoich AFR, even on the same setup. So say your are running a fuel system close to maxed out already on pump. You switch to e85 to "make more power". you're already taxed fuel system will only be able to flow as much fuel as it did with the gas, therefore you will not be able to put as much air to the setup. so basically turning the boost down. So again I say, even with the added cooling effects and higher octane, you ares till going to try to tell me that less boost on a e85 system will produce higher numbers than higher boost on a properly tuned gas system? You may break even. MAY. Otherwise you are spending alot of money to upgrade your fuel system to handle the higher fuel demand. You are trying to use fine tuning and technicalities to get around a very fundamental principal of how an engine works. Yes you can refine the efficiency of the engine, but you aren't going to tune more power out of it than what the fuel system can handle. Plain and simple.

 

hmmm...heres an idea, if your wanting to build a high hp motor be prepared to spend some money on the fuel system

 

Hopefully the people that plan on running e85 don't just plan on pumping e85 into their tank and assume it's going to work. They likely know going into it that they have to have the fuel system for it. Simply put, all things equal, if you have a fuel system capable of e85 that is also capable of pump gas... the power potential of that setup is going to be higher if using e85 because of the ability to run higher compression, and additional timing. Who gives a **** if it has to use more of it? If you're running e85, the reason is likely because of the advantages that Martin has already pointed out countless times. Again, if you're a jack *** and plan on just throwing e85 at your system without taking into account the additional system needs, well then that's what makes you a jack ***. Most of the people I know running e85 plan for it.

I feel for the OP. This thread has spiraled out of control, lol.

 

so... you mean using more fuel will make more power? man seems like someone has been saying that all along in this thread, but was called a jackass for saying it....

if I find out my Aeromotive pump is e85 compatible I will, just to make a point, dyno my setup on pump gas with injectors at maximun safe duty cylce. then put e85 in with the same size fuel system, and retune accordingly to same injector duty cycle and redyno it. Just to have physical numbers that cannot be debated. Then we can see just what the truth to this matter is

 

if you max out your system on gas, WE know that it wont keep up on e85 on the same power level, youll need around 30 percent more...YOU are the one who seems confused on this

and if you re dyno it on the same boost and duty cycle I cant wait to see pics of your motor upon tear down