Dual meth nozzle placement
07-16-2013, 04:51 PM
#61
TECH Resident
My AFR's hit around 10.5 when the meth initially kicks in. Then the computer leans it out to 11.5. With any concentration of meth whether its 100% or 50%, its going to be fat as soon as the meth kicks in. Your tuner should be able to have it setup to lean out appropriately for you.
HRHohio, I know people have used the WW fluid before, and I don't have physical proof that it does anythingng harmfull, but I can't get over the fact its f-ing blue WW fluid and was not formulated with the purpose of being injected into your motor.
As for the price, I bought 5 gallons of meth a couple years ago. It cost me $20. I mixed it with distilled water that was less than .50¢ a gallon. So essentially I have 10 gallons of the mix for about $22.50. That 10 gallons at the rate I use it (and I beat on my car a LOT) will last me about 4 years. So yearly I spend a little over $5. To me, that is well worth knowing I am running something I know to be 100% safe and meant to be injected into my motor.
HRHohio, I know people have used the WW fluid before, and I don't have physical proof that it does anythingng harmfull, but I can't get over the fact its f-ing blue WW fluid and was not formulated with the purpose of being injected into your motor.
As for the price, I bought 5 gallons of meth a couple years ago. It cost me $20. I mixed it with distilled water that was less than .50¢ a gallon. So essentially I have 10 gallons of the mix for about $22.50. That 10 gallons at the rate I use it (and I beat on my car a LOT) will last me about 4 years. So yearly I spend a little over $5. To me, that is well worth knowing I am running something I know to be 100% safe and meant to be injected into my motor.
Haha, yeah, I know. It was hard for me to wrap my brain around at first, but given so many people use it and there's never been anyone that I can think of that has said, "That windshield washer fluid F&$ked up my motor", I feel pretty safe using it. Whether or not it was formulated with the intent of being injected into an engine, the fact of the matter remains the same... it's simply methanol, water, and some food coloring. I'm certain that more damage is caused in the engine by small particles of dust that pass through the air cleaner and get burned up than anything you could trace in WW fluid.
As for the price of Methanol right now, locally I can get it for $35 for a 5 gallon can (just confirmed the price while typing this), so mixed 50/50, with $1/gallon distilled water comes out to $4.50 plus tax. So not that much more expensive, I'll give you that. But why bother when you can grab five 1-gallon jugs right off the shelf at the gas station, pre-mixed with sealed caps.
Not saying that it's not an option, but for me, the hobbyist, Blue is Coo enough for me!
And you're right... you can FEEL it kick in, probably because of the cooling effect/density.Some side info for those who haven't seen it...
In the DSPORT Magazine Article on SnowPerformance.com's website
http://www.snowperformance.net/produ...cle-pdf-42.pdf
they run 50/50 "boost juice" and got almost the same results as 117 Octane Race fuel.
On Devil's Own Alcohol Injection website:
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/
They say " The main function of water methanol injection is preventing detonation. Detonation is caused by high temperatures and pressure developed in the combustion chamber. Water has a high latent heat content, which makes it extremely effective at preventing the onset of detonation. Water injection also reduces the production of NOx (oxides of nitrogen). Methanol, with its 116 octane and high flash point, further reduces the chances of detonation. While water is not combustible, it has a greater capacity to cool the intake air temps more than methanol alone. This is why we recommend a 50/50 mixture being misted into your boosted engine. "
Also, from http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html
They say
"Windshield washer fluid has quickly become one of the most popular fluids used in water methanol injection systems and for good reason. For starters, it's extremely affordable costing anywhere between $1.00-$1.70 per gallon and can be located in most auto parts stores across the states.
windshield washer fluid water methanol injectionUnfortunately, not just any type of windshield washer fluid can be used. When shopping for a windshield washer fluid it's important to find of washer fluid rated for at least -20 degree's below zero as it will contain a large percentage of methanol mixed with water. Additionally, be sure to check the bottle and that it contains methanol as there are some eco-friendly windshield washer fluids rated below zero which do not contain any methanol which you do not want to use.
Most washer fluids rated between -20 and -35 degree's below zero contain between 30-40% methanol. When working with a particular windshield wiper fluid it's always a good idea to check it's MSDS sheet as this will tell you exactly what it contains and how much."
Anyway... hope this info helps add to the discussion and helps people get some answers to some questions that haven't yet been asked.
Cheers!
07-16-2013, 05:15 PM
#62
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Haha, yeah, I know. It was hard for me to wrap my brain around at first, but given so many people use it and there's never been anyone that I can think of that has said, "That windshield washer fluid F&$ked up my motor", I feel pretty safe using it. Whether or not it was formulated with the intent of being injected into an engine, the fact of the matter remains the same... it's simply methanol, water, and some food coloring. I'm certain that more damage is caused in the engine by small particles of dust that pass through the air cleaner and get burned up than anything you could trace in WW fluid.
As for the price of Methanol right now, locally I can get it for $35 for a 5 gallon can (just confirmed the price while typing this), so mixed 50/50, with $1/gallon distilled water comes out to $4.50 plus tax. So not that much more expensive, I'll give you that. But why bother when you can grab five 1-gallon jugs right off the shelf at the gas station, pre-mixed with sealed caps.
Not saying that it's not an option, but for me, the hobbyist, Blue is Coo enough for me! And you're right... you can FEEL it kick in, probably because of the cooling effect/density.
Some side info for those who haven't seen it...
In the DSPORT Magazine Article on SnowPerformance.com's website
http://www.snowperformance.net/produ...cle-pdf-42.pdf
they run 50/50 "boost juice" and got almost the same results as 117 Octane Race fuel.
On Devil's Own Alcohol Injection website:
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/
They say " The main function of water methanol injection is preventing detonation. Detonation is caused by high temperatures and pressure developed in the combustion chamber. Water has a high latent heat content, which makes it extremely effective at preventing the onset of detonation. Water injection also reduces the production of NOx (oxides of nitrogen). Methanol, with its 116 octane and high flash point, further reduces the chances of detonation. While water is not combustible, it has a greater capacity to cool the intake air temps more than methanol alone. This is why we recommend a 50/50 mixture being misted into your boosted engine. "
Also, from http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html
They say
"Windshield washer fluid has quickly become one of the most popular fluids used in water methanol injection systems and for good reason. For starters, it's extremely affordable costing anywhere between $1.00-$1.70 per gallon and can be located in most auto parts stores across the states.
windshield washer fluid water methanol injectionUnfortunately, not just any type of windshield washer fluid can be used. When shopping for a windshield washer fluid it's important to find of washer fluid rated for at least -20 degree's below zero as it will contain a large percentage of methanol mixed with water. Additionally, be sure to check the bottle and that it contains methanol as there are some eco-friendly windshield washer fluids rated below zero which do not contain any methanol which you do not want to use.
Most washer fluids rated between -20 and -35 degree's below zero contain between 30-40% methanol. When working with a particular windshield wiper fluid it's always a good idea to check it's MSDS sheet as this will tell you exactly what it contains and how much."
Anyway... hope this info helps add to the discussion and helps people get some answers to some questions that haven't yet been asked.
Cheers!
As for the price of Methanol right now, locally I can get it for $35 for a 5 gallon can (just confirmed the price while typing this), so mixed 50/50, with $1/gallon distilled water comes out to $4.50 plus tax. So not that much more expensive, I'll give you that. But why bother when you can grab five 1-gallon jugs right off the shelf at the gas station, pre-mixed with sealed caps.
Not saying that it's not an option, but for me, the hobbyist, Blue is Coo enough for me!
And you're right... you can FEEL it kick in, probably because of the cooling effect/density.Some side info for those who haven't seen it...
In the DSPORT Magazine Article on SnowPerformance.com's website
http://www.snowperformance.net/produ...cle-pdf-42.pdf
they run 50/50 "boost juice" and got almost the same results as 117 Octane Race fuel.
On Devil's Own Alcohol Injection website:
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/
They say " The main function of water methanol injection is preventing detonation. Detonation is caused by high temperatures and pressure developed in the combustion chamber. Water has a high latent heat content, which makes it extremely effective at preventing the onset of detonation. Water injection also reduces the production of NOx (oxides of nitrogen). Methanol, with its 116 octane and high flash point, further reduces the chances of detonation. While water is not combustible, it has a greater capacity to cool the intake air temps more than methanol alone. This is why we recommend a 50/50 mixture being misted into your boosted engine. "
Also, from http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html
They say
"Windshield washer fluid has quickly become one of the most popular fluids used in water methanol injection systems and for good reason. For starters, it's extremely affordable costing anywhere between $1.00-$1.70 per gallon and can be located in most auto parts stores across the states.
windshield washer fluid water methanol injectionUnfortunately, not just any type of windshield washer fluid can be used. When shopping for a windshield washer fluid it's important to find of washer fluid rated for at least -20 degree's below zero as it will contain a large percentage of methanol mixed with water. Additionally, be sure to check the bottle and that it contains methanol as there are some eco-friendly windshield washer fluids rated below zero which do not contain any methanol which you do not want to use.
Most washer fluids rated between -20 and -35 degree's below zero contain between 30-40% methanol. When working with a particular windshield wiper fluid it's always a good idea to check it's MSDS sheet as this will tell you exactly what it contains and how much."
Anyway... hope this info helps add to the discussion and helps people get some answers to some questions that haven't yet been asked.
Cheers!
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1461156
07-16-2013, 07:16 PM
#64
TECH Resident
Yeah, at concentrations higher than 50%, there are special considerations that have to be met because you shipping a Class III Flammable liquid. Not to mention the packaging requirements, DOT HazMat Shippers training, Bill of Lading, etc, etc, etc. Doable, but costly. Here's an example of what you can get through Amazon:
5 Gallons of 100% for $85, +Free Shipping.
5 Gallons of 100% for $85, +Free Shipping.
07-17-2013, 10:19 AM
#66
Launching!
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This is where I get my methanol from. I do mix mine with some water for the added cooling benefits and a 5 gallon container lasts me an entire season.
http://shop.hyperfuels.com/
http://shop.hyperfuels.com/
07-17-2013, 10:49 AM
#67
This is where I get my methanol from. I do mix mine with some water for the added cooling benefits and a 5 gallon container lasts me an entire season.
http://shop.hyperfuels.com/
http://shop.hyperfuels.com/
07-17-2013, 02:02 PM
#68
Launching!
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Running great and loving the cam you spec'd out for me! Car is going on the rollers in about a month for some official numbers but I'm thinking it should be somewhere in the 650-700whp range if not a little more, it's a monster on the street
07-20-2013, 09:06 AM
#72
On The Tree
we have been running 25lbs no IC on E85 in our drag radial car with just -20 washer fluid...after much research going to 50/50 mix as the washer fluid is 70/30..ended up getting the premix from summit for about $30 for 4 gals....have not run yet...hopefully next week...was almost 100 here for the last race night...not me...
07-20-2013, 10:16 AM
#73
we have been running 25lbs no IC on E85 in our drag radial car with just -20 washer fluid...after much research going to 50/50 mix as the washer fluid is 70/30..ended up getting the premix from summit for about $30 for 4 gals....have not run yet...hopefully next week...was almost 100 here for the last race night...not me...
07-20-2013, 11:13 AM
#74
Ton of mis-information on this thread! Been using meth injection since 2005 on my cars. The turbo Buick world pioneered this alky injection stuff. That's where I got all my information, from guys that have been doing it 25+ years. I've installed about 8 kits in my personal cars and a few on friends. I tuned them all....
First off there is not a specific amount of meth that is "Correct". More octane and cooling is available the more you spray. The only thing limiting the amount of meth that can be sprayed is equal distribution to all the cylinders. Spraying in front of the throttle body is not going to distribute the mixture evenly between all the cylinders. Because of this the turbo buick guys generally limit the total amount to 30% of your WOT fuel. I've run direct injected setups replacing over 50% of the WOT fuel with straight methanol. Now if you're fuel system fails at this point and the meth continues to spray the motor is going to go dead lean and probably blow. Same thing if the meth inj system should fail. You have to stay on top of maintenance. Honestly I think a properly done meth system is no less reliable than a fuel system. You can also setup fail safe systems to cut ign etc if either fail.
Though on paper there is no arguing water removes more heat than meth, water doesn't burn. Without super arc welder ignition systems to light off the water saturated mixtures you can't spray the volume of water needed to actively prevent detonation as well as meth. From personal experience 100% meth just plain works better. We were always able to run more boost and more timing with 100% meth. Tried 50/50 75/50 etc....
Another BS factoid alky injection sellers love to point out is the IAT drop. They encourage you to spray pre IAT sensor so you can see a huge temp drop on your IAT sensor. This is a totally BS reading! Spray some alcohol on you're hand and move your hand around. Are you changing the temperature of the air around your hand? Or is the alcohol just evaporating quickly off you're hand (aka the sensor). The air charge in your piping is NOT at the same temp indicated by a saturated IAT sensor. Don't think it is! It does help cool it down a bit but not nearly as much as the alky vendors want you to think. It does most of it's work in the combustion chamber. Smaller nozzles pre-turbo and along cold side do help drop temps a tad and fight heat soaked pipes etc. Thats all fine and good, but spray the majority at the throttle body IMHO.
Also placing the nozzles straight across from one another is a bad idea. It causes more droplets to form and doesn't atomize as well. Not that it wont work, just won't work as well as a staggered setup.
Meth WILL GO BAD. And it does it very quickly in humid climates, or rapid temp changes/ranges. Meth is hygroscopic. Meaning it loves to absorb moisture. Octane drops considerably when it becomes saturated with water.
Sunlight is not going to cause methanol fittings to leak. If you're using push to connect fittings they can only be used once with Meth. The O rings in the fittings swell when exposed to methanol. They seam to hold up for a few years, but eventually start to crack and leak anyway. I'd suggest AN lines with 100% meth.
First off there is not a specific amount of meth that is "Correct". More octane and cooling is available the more you spray. The only thing limiting the amount of meth that can be sprayed is equal distribution to all the cylinders. Spraying in front of the throttle body is not going to distribute the mixture evenly between all the cylinders. Because of this the turbo buick guys generally limit the total amount to 30% of your WOT fuel. I've run direct injected setups replacing over 50% of the WOT fuel with straight methanol. Now if you're fuel system fails at this point and the meth continues to spray the motor is going to go dead lean and probably blow. Same thing if the meth inj system should fail. You have to stay on top of maintenance. Honestly I think a properly done meth system is no less reliable than a fuel system. You can also setup fail safe systems to cut ign etc if either fail.
Though on paper there is no arguing water removes more heat than meth, water doesn't burn. Without super arc welder ignition systems to light off the water saturated mixtures you can't spray the volume of water needed to actively prevent detonation as well as meth. From personal experience 100% meth just plain works better. We were always able to run more boost and more timing with 100% meth. Tried 50/50 75/50 etc....
Another BS factoid alky injection sellers love to point out is the IAT drop. They encourage you to spray pre IAT sensor so you can see a huge temp drop on your IAT sensor. This is a totally BS reading! Spray some alcohol on you're hand and move your hand around. Are you changing the temperature of the air around your hand? Or is the alcohol just evaporating quickly off you're hand (aka the sensor). The air charge in your piping is NOT at the same temp indicated by a saturated IAT sensor. Don't think it is! It does help cool it down a bit but not nearly as much as the alky vendors want you to think. It does most of it's work in the combustion chamber. Smaller nozzles pre-turbo and along cold side do help drop temps a tad and fight heat soaked pipes etc. Thats all fine and good, but spray the majority at the throttle body IMHO.
Also placing the nozzles straight across from one another is a bad idea. It causes more droplets to form and doesn't atomize as well. Not that it wont work, just won't work as well as a staggered setup.
Meth WILL GO BAD. And it does it very quickly in humid climates, or rapid temp changes/ranges. Meth is hygroscopic. Meaning it loves to absorb moisture. Octane drops considerably when it becomes saturated with water.
Sunlight is not going to cause methanol fittings to leak. If you're using push to connect fittings they can only be used once with Meth. The O rings in the fittings swell when exposed to methanol. They seam to hold up for a few years, but eventually start to crack and leak anyway. I'd suggest AN lines with 100% meth.
Last edited by Forcefed86; 07-20-2013 at 04:42 PM.
07-20-2013, 10:42 PM
#76
Yea, great post.
About the IAT sensor, I used to have mine in the intake track about 12" down from the nozzles and about 1 foot before the tb. I would often see the temps drop roughly 20 degrees when the meth sprayed. Clearly the true air temp isnt below ambient (unless my intercooler is magic). I moved the sensor to the very back of the intake (holley hi ram) and the temps now stay about the same (at 20psi no less), but I feel it is much more accurate here.
About the IAT sensor, I used to have mine in the intake track about 12" down from the nozzles and about 1 foot before the tb. I would often see the temps drop roughly 20 degrees when the meth sprayed. Clearly the true air temp isnt below ambient (unless my intercooler is magic). I moved the sensor to the very back of the intake (holley hi ram) and the temps now stay about the same (at 20psi no less), but I feel it is much more accurate here.
07-20-2013, 11:36 PM
#77
I have nothing against pre-compressor if done correctly, esp with no IC.
Even with an IC I ran tiny nozzles at high pressure (meth only). 2 .75 gph nozzles with 100% meth at 250psi. I believe it atomized the meth well enough that it was in gas form before it even hit my IC. It was efficient enough that I'd see a 1psi gain in the upper RPM's on the data logs. Ran for over a year over-speeding the bejebus on a tiny 16g mitsu turbo at 35+ psi with no signs of blade erosion.
Even with an IC I ran tiny nozzles at high pressure (meth only). 2 .75 gph nozzles with 100% meth at 250psi. I believe it atomized the meth well enough that it was in gas form before it even hit my IC. It was efficient enough that I'd see a 1psi gain in the upper RPM's on the data logs. Ran for over a year over-speeding the bejebus on a tiny 16g mitsu turbo at 35+ psi with no signs of blade erosion.
10-17-2013, 10:57 AM
#79
Yes. It gives the meth a longer amount of time to “flash” and change states into a gas. The flashing of the meth is what takes the majority of the heat out of the air charge. Pre-turbo inj. also cools the turbo blades and housing itself. The cooler the air charge before being compressed, the more dense the air will be. This lets the turbo work more efficiently… up to a point anyway.
If you’re running an IC with pre-injection, cooling this charge before it gets to the IC it actually helps the IC do its job better. Cooler air in = cooler air out. Just don’t spray a huge amount and over saturate the mixture to the point where liquid methanol pools up in the intercooler.
There’s also an effect called “wet compression” that makes the turbo itself more efficient. Basically the tighter the tolerances from blade to comp. wall, the better the turbo works at doing its job. Spraying enough pre-turbo actually tightens these clearances by coating them with liquid. You would have to spray enough liquid that mixture didn’t all flash into gas form. Then the remaining liquid would “fill in the gaps” between the blades and compressor housing. The turbine engines did a lot of research on this with water injection. Meth may flash to quickly to take full advantage of this. Blade erosion would also be a factor.
10-17-2013, 11:08 AM
#80
Spraying pre turbo has my interest, except I worry about the BOV allowing vaporized meth out when letting off the throttle too. I wouldn't want an invisible fireball running through my engine compartment. I guess I would just need to be careful of its placement....