Holley Dominator EFI, OR, PRO EFI
11-17-2013, 07:16 AM
#61
I sort of have to disagree with that with regards ProEFI.
What is a normal user ? If it is someone with no knowledge of such things...then normal would be to buy from dealer and have them install and tune. So they dont need to know.
And once that initial setup is done, it should never need looked at again.
And it may pay to have this done by someone competent, to ensure everything is in order, especially if the ecu is capable of doing lots of things.
As for people tuning themselves. That can be dodgy ground too, especially with a versatile system.
And I say that over complicated, because often a more versatile system will appear more complicated, but that's simply because it does so much.
Ive never used ProEFI, although I did glance at the site. Cant say I like their overly graphical tuning interface....baffles me why so many companies do this. Maybe it's to try and appeal to a wider audience, rather than a tuner specific one. I'd rather have a simple and clear easy to navigate interface, than one with stupid big dials and gauges taking up half the screen !
What is a normal user ? If it is someone with no knowledge of such things...then normal would be to buy from dealer and have them install and tune. So they dont need to know.
And once that initial setup is done, it should never need looked at again.
And it may pay to have this done by someone competent, to ensure everything is in order, especially if the ecu is capable of doing lots of things.
As for people tuning themselves. That can be dodgy ground too, especially with a versatile system.
And I say that over complicated, because often a more versatile system will appear more complicated, but that's simply because it does so much.
Ive never used ProEFI, although I did glance at the site. Cant say I like their overly graphical tuning interface....baffles me why so many companies do this. Maybe it's to try and appeal to a wider audience, rather than a tuner specific one. I'd rather have a simple and clear easy to navigate interface, than one with stupid big dials and gauges taking up half the screen !
normal user.....welll..maybe not normal....
but how many people own HP Tuners or EFI Live so they can tune it them selves.....
the average user who just piddles with their own tune in the stock ECU.. will have issues with the PRO EFI...but will probably be able to tune what they need to in the Holley with no problems...
now I'm not saying they will know what to adjust to fix their individual tuning issues...but it seemed a lot easier to get around in the Holley software
and its a lot easier to set up a starting tune yourself in the Holley software...especially for an LS Engine...theres already a file you can start with that has most of everything setup...just have to change a few values to match your setup(Cubic inches of motor, injector size, and a hand full of other things that you would have to tell a tuner about your setup anyways)
11-17-2013, 07:33 AM
#62
TECH Apprentice
finally, some good info.
What you should be asking yourself is:
1. Is either system missing something that I truly need?
2. Am I going to be tackling the tuning myself?
If Yes. Do I understand tuning principals, Can I navigate the interface? Can I learn how to use the system if Im unfamiliar with it? Or am I better off having someone tune it for me
If No. Does my tuner have a preference of system that they are more comfortable with? Am I ok having to rely on someone if my car has issues/gets an upgrade? Can I afford to pay someone everytime I need tune work? Will this tuner be comfortable with me potentially calling them often/weekends if Im racing? Are they prompt in returning a call/email?
I use the holley system in my own ride and am very happy with it, Im not partial to one system or another because I have very little experience with proefi. Im sure each system has its (+ & -), but in most cases if you ask yourself questions like the ones listed above, a clear winner will rise.
Also, Ive never seen an ecu "save" an engine, really there is no such thing. What I have seen is the tuner save it, by taking their time and programming failsafes. Yes the holley can cut ignition, reduce boost, reduce timing, ect based on afr, knock, fuel/oil pressure, coolant temp, overboost protection, ect. It can have as many safety features as you want/can think of. Each system has these features but they may do them in different ways.
A friend that races with me has a proefi on a TT foxbody. He has someone doing his tuning for him, constantly sending datalogs and files back, always on the phone with the tuner. Anyway he went out and made a pass and just blew the engine apart. It overboosted (38psi) so I dont want to hear how either system can/will save the engine. The person behind the keyboard either was or wasnt smart enough to allow features of the system to be put to work.
Here's a snapshot of a log from a race recently. For whatever reason my fuel pressure headed south in the run, but I programmed the computer to compensate, which it did perfectly, luckly I had enough injector duty cycle for it to maintain proper afr, but had it gone outside of the boundaries that I setup the ecu would have cut the ignition preventing engine damage.
What you should be asking yourself is:
1. Is either system missing something that I truly need?
2. Am I going to be tackling the tuning myself?
If Yes. Do I understand tuning principals, Can I navigate the interface? Can I learn how to use the system if Im unfamiliar with it? Or am I better off having someone tune it for me
If No. Does my tuner have a preference of system that they are more comfortable with? Am I ok having to rely on someone if my car has issues/gets an upgrade? Can I afford to pay someone everytime I need tune work? Will this tuner be comfortable with me potentially calling them often/weekends if Im racing? Are they prompt in returning a call/email?
I use the holley system in my own ride and am very happy with it, Im not partial to one system or another because I have very little experience with proefi. Im sure each system has its (+ & -), but in most cases if you ask yourself questions like the ones listed above, a clear winner will rise.
Also, Ive never seen an ecu "save" an engine, really there is no such thing. What I have seen is the tuner save it, by taking their time and programming failsafes. Yes the holley can cut ignition, reduce boost, reduce timing, ect based on afr, knock, fuel/oil pressure, coolant temp, overboost protection, ect. It can have as many safety features as you want/can think of. Each system has these features but they may do them in different ways.
A friend that races with me has a proefi on a TT foxbody. He has someone doing his tuning for him, constantly sending datalogs and files back, always on the phone with the tuner. Anyway he went out and made a pass and just blew the engine apart. It overboosted (38psi) so I dont want to hear how either system can/will save the engine. The person behind the keyboard either was or wasnt smart enough to allow features of the system to be put to work.
Here's a snapshot of a log from a race recently. For whatever reason my fuel pressure headed south in the run, but I programmed the computer to compensate, which it did perfectly, luckly I had enough injector duty cycle for it to maintain proper afr, but had it gone outside of the boundaries that I setup the ecu would have cut the ignition preventing engine damage.
11-17-2013, 08:59 AM
#63
the Holley may have saved my butt, once during a pass I lost my belt so all of a sudden with no alternator the voltage starts dropping & so the fuel pressure starts dropping as well. The AFR remained right were it was commanded to be throughout the whole run though.
11-17-2013, 09:20 AM
#64
9 Second Club
In the cases above, the ecu DID save your engine. The tuner cannot program failsafes if the ecu doesnt allow you that option.
If there is a problem or failure because the tuner didnt or wasnt able, or the customer didnt want to pay to make them operable, that's a different matter entirely.
But certainly the most basic thing of overboost protection, only a complete idiot would run without that. I havent seen an afermarket ecu in existence that doesnt offer this.
And the graphs above show exactly what I'm saying. The log viewer is crap !
Having access to only a single display is poor. Because you end up having to overlay so many things, it just becomes cluttered. And whilst it does display info at the side, this doesnt appear to be user selectable. So again, very restrictive.
It seems daft having huge amounts of logging, with a very slow and restricted way of viewing those logs. Although I'm sure that will improve over time.
Holley would do well to look at the log viewer from the likes of Syvecs/life Racing. It is superb, and you can display so much data, very easy to view and switch through batches of data in seconds.
That would be impossible on Holley from what ive seen
Whilst closed loop fuelling can save under the two scenarios mentioned. It's a tricky one to decide what to do. Maybe ok on a few second drag race, but on the street or longer racing...a more immediate shutdown, or certainly restricted rpm etc if relative fuel pressure drops outside expected probably makes more sense. That way there is less risk of damage, and that drop in fuel pressure could be indicative of a fuel leak, as much as a failing pump etc.
So perhaps it is best to cause a limp mode where the driver is forced to slow down and/or stop.
Either way the more options the ecu offers you for such things, the better
If there is a problem or failure because the tuner didnt or wasnt able, or the customer didnt want to pay to make them operable, that's a different matter entirely.
But certainly the most basic thing of overboost protection, only a complete idiot would run without that. I havent seen an afermarket ecu in existence that doesnt offer this.
And the graphs above show exactly what I'm saying. The log viewer is crap !
Having access to only a single display is poor. Because you end up having to overlay so many things, it just becomes cluttered. And whilst it does display info at the side, this doesnt appear to be user selectable. So again, very restrictive.
It seems daft having huge amounts of logging, with a very slow and restricted way of viewing those logs. Although I'm sure that will improve over time.
Holley would do well to look at the log viewer from the likes of Syvecs/life Racing. It is superb, and you can display so much data, very easy to view and switch through batches of data in seconds.
That would be impossible on Holley from what ive seen
Whilst closed loop fuelling can save under the two scenarios mentioned. It's a tricky one to decide what to do. Maybe ok on a few second drag race, but on the street or longer racing...a more immediate shutdown, or certainly restricted rpm etc if relative fuel pressure drops outside expected probably makes more sense. That way there is less risk of damage, and that drop in fuel pressure could be indicative of a fuel leak, as much as a failing pump etc.
So perhaps it is best to cause a limp mode where the driver is forced to slow down and/or stop.
Either way the more options the ecu offers you for such things, the better
11-17-2013, 09:50 AM
#65
And the graphs above show exactly what I'm saying. The log viewer is crap !
Having access to only a single display is poor. Because you end up having to overlay so many things, it just becomes cluttered. And whilst it does display info at the side, this doesnt appear to be user selectable. So again, very restrictive.
It seems daft having huge amounts of logging, with a very slow and restricted way of viewing those logs. Although I'm sure that will improve over time.
Holley would do well to look at the log viewer from the likes of Syvecs/life Racing. It is superb, and you can display so much data, very easy to view and switch through batches of data in seconds.
That would be impossible on Holley from what ive seen
Having access to only a single display is poor. Because you end up having to overlay so many things, it just becomes cluttered. And whilst it does display info at the side, this doesnt appear to be user selectable. So again, very restrictive.
It seems daft having huge amounts of logging, with a very slow and restricted way of viewing those logs. Although I'm sure that will improve over time.
Holley would do well to look at the log viewer from the likes of Syvecs/life Racing. It is superb, and you can display so much data, very easy to view and switch through batches of data in seconds.
That would be impossible on Holley from what ive seen
11-17-2013, 09:53 AM
#66
And the graphs above show exactly what I'm saying. The log viewer is crap !
Having access to only a single display is poor. Because you end up having to overlay so many things, it just becomes cluttered. And whilst it does display info at the side, this doesnt appear to be user selectable. So again, very restrictive.
It seems daft having huge amounts of logging, with a very slow and restricted way of viewing those logs. Although I'm sure that will improve over time.
Holley would do well to look at the log viewer from the likes of Syvecs/life Racing. It is superb, and you can display so much data, very easy to view and switch through batches of data in seconds.
That would be impossible on Holley from what ive seen
Whilst closed loop fuelling can save under the two scenarios mentioned. It's a tricky one to decide what to do. Maybe ok on a few second drag race, but on the street or longer racing...a more immediate shutdown, or certainly restricted rpm etc if relative fuel pressure drops outside expected probably makes more sense. That way there is less risk of damage, and that drop in fuel pressure could be indicative of a fuel leak, as much as a failing pump etc.
So perhaps it is best to cause a limp mode where the driver is forced to slow down and/or stop.
Either way the more options the ecu offers you for such things, the better
Having access to only a single display is poor. Because you end up having to overlay so many things, it just becomes cluttered. And whilst it does display info at the side, this doesnt appear to be user selectable. So again, very restrictive.
It seems daft having huge amounts of logging, with a very slow and restricted way of viewing those logs. Although I'm sure that will improve over time.
Holley would do well to look at the log viewer from the likes of Syvecs/life Racing. It is superb, and you can display so much data, very easy to view and switch through batches of data in seconds.
That would be impossible on Holley from what ive seen
Whilst closed loop fuelling can save under the two scenarios mentioned. It's a tricky one to decide what to do. Maybe ok on a few second drag race, but on the street or longer racing...a more immediate shutdown, or certainly restricted rpm etc if relative fuel pressure drops outside expected probably makes more sense. That way there is less risk of damage, and that drop in fuel pressure could be indicative of a fuel leak, as much as a failing pump etc.
So perhaps it is best to cause a limp mode where the driver is forced to slow down and/or stop.
Either way the more options the ecu offers you for such things, the better
the Holley datlogging is far more powerful than I think you have seen in the few posts above
its very similar to the life Racing ECU flexibility
actually... you can view multiple panes at once in the holley, and you can see it follow in the tune file as well.....
all at once....
you can also set it up to do anything you want...its has some stuff pre set up....but you dont have to use any of it if you dont want to... you can make all your own to suit your needs.
and you dont necessarily have to show a reference value on the left hand side either... you can choose not to show it per item
also, there are "Math Channels" so when you need to create something, you can....trans slip is a good example...
Code:
100*((VSSi-VSSo)/VSSi))
grabbed an old log and an old file to set it up....
I like to use my home pc for log viewing because I have multiple screens and can follow it along easier
also... ALL Data logs contain ALL inputs and outputs....
so you dont have to pick what you want to log....you only select what you want to view, so theres no worry about if you remembered to log a specific thing or not...because its always there all the time when you datalog.
you can also log up to 100 FPS or as little as 1FPS
all the Best Dataloggers in the industry will show you a Line View.....it is pretty much standard in everybodys datalogger...
this is the best way to compare multiple things at the same time....though not always the prettiest
and being able to see it in a timeline means you can also reference a time frame...which is very important when trying to figure out what is happening in a data log....especially when looking at things in a few milleseconds time reference
what is important is being able to reference that data to the tune in a visual way if necessary....and only the great ones can do this..
Last edited by soundengineer; 11-17-2013 at 10:41 AM.
11-17-2013, 11:29 AM
#70
TECH Apprentice
In the cases above, the ecu DID save your engine. The tuner cannot program failsafes if the ecu doesnt allow you that option.
If there is a problem or failure because the tuner didnt or wasnt able, or the customer didnt want to pay to make them operable, that's a different matter entirely.
But certainly the most basic thing of overboost protection, only a complete idiot would run without that. I havent seen an afermarket ecu in existence that doesnt offer this.
And the graphs above show exactly what I'm saying. The log viewer is crap !
Having access to only a single display is poor. Because you end up having to overlay so many things, it just becomes cluttered. And whilst it does display info at the side, this doesnt appear to be user selectable. So again, very restrictive.
It seems daft having huge amounts of logging, with a very slow and restricted way of viewing those logs. Although I'm sure that will improve over time.
Holley would do well to look at the log viewer from the likes of Syvecs/life Racing. It is superb, and you can display so much data, very easy to view and switch through batches of data in seconds.
That would be impossible on Holley from what ive seen
Whilst closed loop fuelling can save under the two scenarios mentioned. It's a tricky one to decide what to do. Maybe ok on a few second drag race, but on the street or longer racing...a more immediate shutdown, or certainly restricted rpm etc if relative fuel pressure drops outside expected probably makes more sense. That way there is less risk of damage, and that drop in fuel pressure could be indicative of a fuel leak, as much as a failing pump etc.
So perhaps it is best to cause a limp mode where the driver is forced to slow down and/or stop.
Either way the more options the ecu offers you for such things, the better
If there is a problem or failure because the tuner didnt or wasnt able, or the customer didnt want to pay to make them operable, that's a different matter entirely.
But certainly the most basic thing of overboost protection, only a complete idiot would run without that. I havent seen an afermarket ecu in existence that doesnt offer this.
And the graphs above show exactly what I'm saying. The log viewer is crap !
Having access to only a single display is poor. Because you end up having to overlay so many things, it just becomes cluttered. And whilst it does display info at the side, this doesnt appear to be user selectable. So again, very restrictive.
It seems daft having huge amounts of logging, with a very slow and restricted way of viewing those logs. Although I'm sure that will improve over time.
Holley would do well to look at the log viewer from the likes of Syvecs/life Racing. It is superb, and you can display so much data, very easy to view and switch through batches of data in seconds.
That would be impossible on Holley from what ive seen
Whilst closed loop fuelling can save under the two scenarios mentioned. It's a tricky one to decide what to do. Maybe ok on a few second drag race, but on the street or longer racing...a more immediate shutdown, or certainly restricted rpm etc if relative fuel pressure drops outside expected probably makes more sense. That way there is less risk of damage, and that drop in fuel pressure could be indicative of a fuel leak, as much as a failing pump etc.
So perhaps it is best to cause a limp mode where the driver is forced to slow down and/or stop.
Either way the more options the ecu offers you for such things, the better
Seems you just like to argue. I dont know if you are aware but were are talking about 2 ecu's with the capability of clc, and several programmed failsafesthe ecu doesn't make decisions only responds to how its programmed. It does what its told. In the end the tuner is responsible for the engines survival, and the tuner gets the credit, where good or bad. If I had closed loop compensation, and knock retard turned off and the ecu detected a problem, decided to inter-vein and compensate even though I told it to not too. Then I would say the ecu saved the engine. Please go and re-read what I typed in my prior post in bold
"only an idiot would run without overboost protection" I totally agree. But yet this tuner whom I have been told by many is the best in the biz with pro efi didn't program one. Some folks questioned his tuning that are holley users and he has said verbatim " no amount of holley magic would have saved this engine". He would be correct if he was behind the keyboard. Remember guys just because a "pro" is tuning doesn't mean your good to go. Also features are only a benifit when they are being used, so maximize the options available.
You are not familiar enough with the holley system to pass on any kind of useful opinion to someone who may be looking to buy one.
multiple pages of easily viewed graphs, all of which are user programable, and can be switched out at any time. math channels, overlays. Lots of features and viewing styles.
I can program all different hosts of failsafes, while it is true that simple failsafes are built in, like knock, overboost, and ignition cutoff. Its possible to setup more complicated safeties but you have to do this on your own and think out side the box. For example. As stevieturbo stated an overly high closed loop correction may mean a failing fuel pump or fuel leak. You can build a failsafe where if the clc is above a certain value for a certain period of time it can command an output, this output can control a light, depower a relay, tell the ecu to activate a revlimit, ect, ect. This is just one example, you could literally do most anything you could think of.
11-17-2013, 11:32 AM
#71
TECH Apprentice
Yeah i wish it would remember the style of viewing too. I always thicken the datalines to see them easier.
11-17-2013, 11:36 AM
#72
Again...with my extreme lack of knowledge I used the word "saved" because for someone with no knowledge of tuning that's what I saw the Efi128 do. My buddy was driving his stroked 3.4L supra home from CT with me when all of a sudden the system used some type of fail safe to keep him from doing anything that would hurt the engine. The car bogged down and wouldn't allow him to get into boos past a point. From what the tuner did and what he said, had he exceeded these failsafe levels (not sure if preset or something internally configured) the motor would have likely had serious damage. I have no further details just observations. I know the EFI 128 has a lot of failsafe and feedback loops to help keep a setup as safe as possible...if that's better phrasing.
11-17-2013, 12:04 PM
#73
TECH Apprentice
Sounds like the tuner did his job well. I have nothing agaisnt proefi I would like to get into the sytem more. Im sure its a more than capable system. People get caught up in the latest craze or do something because someone else does. What they need to do is step back and take an organized look at their needs and what a system can offer.
11-17-2013, 03:33 PM
#74
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The Holley has some interesting things, but still needs some refinement. The logging is not very good to read and clunky to find. The live reading lower left corner screen needs to be used in data log viewing so you can see numbers that correspond with the graph.
Kurt
Kurt
11-17-2013, 06:35 PM
#75
that is one of the reasons why I use 2 screens to view logs...
one screen is DataLogger
one screen is the File with the Overlay Active
then I get all the data I need while looking at the tune.
I dont know why you say its klunky or hard to find/read....
its the same as looking at a Racepak log or a BS3 log...
I have no problems with it...
I set up a switch on my dash so that when I want to data log, I just flip it on...
then I flip it back off when I'm done...
no need to log more than necessary... I can flip it on just before burnout, and flip it back off while turning onto the return road.
11-17-2013, 08:25 PM
#76
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It is not the same. In a Racepak or BS3 log the graphs are on the same screen as the numerical data, makes understanding the data simple. With the Holley the only numerical data is at the top of the screen after clicking the mouse on the data line you want to look at. If you want to know rpm, AF and timing at one rpm you need to hit that point on each line with the mouse. That is troublesome and clunky. I use it on a dyno so my recording starts when I exceed a throttle percentage (same as the others), but when I am done on the others the log pops up and you start reading it. On the Holley you switch to offline, go to download screen, download, go to viewing screen, find last log, open it and start looking. I find it faster to hold a piece of paper up on the screen for reference when switching back and forth between screens. Not horrible, but slow and clunky.
Kurt
Kurt
that is one of the reasons why I use 2 screens to view logs...
one screen is DataLogger
one screen is the File with the Overlay Active
then I get all the data I need while looking at the tune.
I dont know why you say its klunky or hard to find/read....
its the same as looking at a Racepak log or a BS3 log...
I have no problems with it...
I set up a switch on my dash so that when I want to data log, I just flip it on...
then I flip it back off when I'm done...
no need to log more than necessary... I can flip it on just before burnout, and flip it back off while turning onto the return road.
one screen is DataLogger
one screen is the File with the Overlay Active
then I get all the data I need while looking at the tune.
I dont know why you say its klunky or hard to find/read....
its the same as looking at a Racepak log or a BS3 log...
I have no problems with it...
I set up a switch on my dash so that when I want to data log, I just flip it on...
then I flip it back off when I'm done...
no need to log more than necessary... I can flip it on just before burnout, and flip it back off while turning onto the return road.
11-17-2013, 08:36 PM
#77
It is not the same. In a Racepak or BS3 log the graphs are on the same screen as the numerical data, makes understanding the data simple. With the Holley the only numerical data is at the top of the screen after clicking the mouse on the data line you want to look at. If you want to know rpm, AF and timing at one rpm you need to hit that point on each line with the mouse. That is troublesome and clunky. I use it on a dyno so my recording starts when I exceed a throttle percentage (same as the others), but when I am done on the others the log pops up and you start reading it. On the Holley you switch to offline, go to download screen, download, go to viewing screen, find last log, open it and start looking. I find it faster to hold a piece of paper up on the screen for reference when switching back and forth between screens. Not horrible, but slow and clunky.
Kurt
Kurt
I'm not sure what you are looking at with the holley that you are missing that info
and you are doing it the hard way on the dyno...
if you have the laptop in the car with you....you should just be logging on the laptop....and starting it by hand...when done...it pulls right up...as soon as you hit the open data log menu it open the directory..
and so what if you have to go offline and pull up a log....
try sorting them by date... first one pops up on top
honestly it sounds like more of a case of just not using your computer to its highest potential because of how you have something set up..
I can see everything just as good, and sometimes better than I can on a BS3/XFI/Racepak.....
if its an issue of not seeing the tables in the tune while looking at the logs....
you might just need to learn how to do split screen on your computer..or buy a 2nd monitor
11-17-2013, 09:01 PM
#78
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I have only been using it for a short time, I had Holley set it up the best they can. I do not have a car near the system when it is running, just the dyno.
Sounds like you are getting better results than I am, do you work for Holley?
Kurt
Sounds like you are getting better results than I am, do you work for Holley?
Kurt
its all on the left......on the same screen as your log....
I'm not sure what you are looking at with the holley that you are missing that info
and you are doing it the hard way on the dyno...
if you have the laptop in the car with you....you should just be logging on the laptop....and starting it by hand...when done...it pulls right up...as soon as you hit the open data log menu it open the directory..
and so what if you have to go offline and pull up a log....
try sorting them by date... first one pops up on top
honestly it sounds like more of a case of just not using your computer to its highest potential because of how you have something set up..
I can see everything just as good, and sometimes better than I can on a BS3/XFI/Racepak.....
if its an issue of not seeing the tables in the tune while looking at the logs....
you might just need to learn how to do split screen on your computer..or buy a 2nd monitor
I'm not sure what you are looking at with the holley that you are missing that info
and you are doing it the hard way on the dyno...
if you have the laptop in the car with you....you should just be logging on the laptop....and starting it by hand...when done...it pulls right up...as soon as you hit the open data log menu it open the directory..
and so what if you have to go offline and pull up a log....
try sorting them by date... first one pops up on top
honestly it sounds like more of a case of just not using your computer to its highest potential because of how you have something set up..
I can see everything just as good, and sometimes better than I can on a BS3/XFI/Racepak.....
if its an issue of not seeing the tables in the tune while looking at the logs....
you might just need to learn how to do split screen on your computer..or buy a 2nd monitor
11-17-2013, 09:04 PM
#79
I'm just a well versed tuner who helped design the layout of the scanner for HP tuners....
I know my way around a scanner..LOL
I can usually show somebody how to get the most out of their data logger better than the manufacturer can..LOL
though... at this point... I'm starting to think that Holley should Hire me....I'd do that for a paycheck..LOL
and it sounds like you should invest in a laptop or two ($300-$400 each) that you can use while on the dyno...it would make all your tuning a lot easier....
I mean... how do you get tunes into the vehicle while its on the dyno if the computer is not near by?
Last edited by soundengineer; 11-17-2013 at 09:10 PM.
