mike13

iTrader: (27)

No the hate is for people thinking there is such a thing as "self tuning" If adjusting fuel tables is the definition of self tuning than the stock pcm is "self tuning" it does the same thing by adjusting fuel trims.

mike13

iTrader: (27)

I totally agree with this, at least learn to use the tools to monitor basic functions. I can't tell you how many times just a quick look at a data log has got me looking in the right direction for a problem.

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

At this stage in the game, I data log every time I drive the car. Why? Because at this stage of where I'm at, if something doesn't seem right, I want to have the data to try and troubleshoot and figure it out.... and I'm not even that wild of a setup. Just a simple D1 blower at a few psi making a few hp.

enginjoe

iTrader: (11)

If you want to make every last bit of power and be sure of everything, go to a pro.

The thing that sucks for people like me, who don't live in the big city, we have to travel to the tuner (150 miles for me) or get email tunes. I recently rebuilt the car and changed everything, so I needed a tune. I had my tuner email one to me. I have HP tuners for my SS which I got brand new from HPT back in 2004, but they orphaned my hardware and it won't burn a new tune. They also won't even give me any discount toward a new tuning suite. Too bad for me says HP tuners, buy a new tuner! I will, but it won't be theirs.

Personally, I'm tired of having to go to someone else for a tune and I don't want to learn how to do it. I've been to way to much school already (master's degree in electrical engineering). These new systems are what I would want if I was doing an LS motor swap somewhere. I am looking into these just to eliminate the hassle and the middleman.

COSPEED2

iTrader: (7)

This is also a reason why we started offering remote tuning VIA HPT. You have everything at your fingertips (should you so choose) or you can trust it to a professional. Not just a black box that can use GIGO at any given time.

Invariably if something goes wrong, those people will blame the computer. With the other tuning options like HPT or EFILive you can look at it yourself and also spread it out on the boards to get better feedback, and all of the Diagnostic trouble codes are standardized etc. We have diagnosed many problems (and been either spot on or very close) just by looking at HPT scan logs of a car half way across the country.

This is one option yes, but not the gold standard. Nor should it be treated with such disregard for error either. No system is without error. Not one.

stevieturbo

At any stage, datalog ALL the time.

You never know when a problem might occur, you never know when you'll need to review data.

People wayyyy underestimate the value of datalogging, I simply wouldnt buy or use an ecu that didnt offer it full time on anything capable of making some power

Lrn2Go

iTrader: (1)

This thread is a little old, but I just wanted to drop in my opinion. I've owned the MSD EFI LS unit since July of last year, and had it running on a bolt-on only Ls2 (FAST/NW 102, Headers) since September. I've street-driven it for a couple months, ran 4 track events with my first drift event (with this motor) coming up on Saturday.

My impressions so far... it's done a really nice job. Was it too expensive? Yes. Is it more limited than some of the cheaper options? For sure. I try to convince myself that the hardware (which is very high quality and unique) helps cover the cost difference a little... but mostly that sometimes it just costs more to be an "early adopter" of a name-brand, quality piece of kit.

<My Build Thread>

Due to some issues I had getting my car running in the beginning (which was totally on me and not noticing that my bellhousing was wrong until later) and another with a ranging-idle (which turned out to be my throttle-body)... I have been in touch with them on several occasions, and I'll give them one thing, their customer service is really good and usually pretty quick. All my questions were answered every time I had anything to ask (on their forum, over email, and on the phone)... from the noob-stuff that I sometimes manage to come up with, to in depth programming and wiring questions, and "what's coming". What I can tell you is... this system started out being a big bite of buyers remorse to me, but now I'm actually really glad I went this way. Some of the new stuff that's coming this year is gonna be awesome (to me) and has me pretty excited. One of those things/questions I had was this...

To which I got this reply...

Sooo... I'm no tuner, and I'm not saying one system is "better" than another, and I'm not going to tell anybody that they couldn't have done everything this system does for way cheaper, and I'm not saying... well... anything really, other than the fact that I've really enjoyed the system and it's worked well for me, even on the track. I haven't put it on a dyno, but I will eventually. Hopefully, as a laymen to efi, the answer I got hints at something that might even appease the mighty engine tuners. Even if just a little bit. haha.

Brian Hoss

Lrn2go - they debuted it at SEMA 2013. Brainwave. Pretty trick set up to control all the electronics in a car. Perfect for us swap folks. Looking forward to seeing it out in the wild. Cost didn't sound too bad either, but they haven't nailed that down yet. Thanks for the feedback. Looking forward to my build. Getting closer to starting on the drivetrain!

Stovebolter

Old thread, but has gained my interest. JFYI, someone mentioned the Holley HP is cheaper but the base Holley system does not include the handheld tuner.Still investigating the options.

Did the OP post his results anywhere after his install? Wish the MSD allowed changes via laptop for the more advanced tuner.

Brian Hoss

Atomic LS price was just dropped to $1699 for the LS2/3 kit and $1999 for the LS7. Not a bad deal. I'm building a single turbo Atomic LS motor. Eager to see how it turns out.....

http://www.jegs.com/p/MSD-Ignition/M...=20141215email

gsteele

That is a great example of self tuning/learning.(sarcasm) It has as a default a preprogramed LS3 tune so that the computer knows in advance exactly what to expect. Then you still have to tell it the desired air/fuel ratio at idle, part throttle and wide open throttle and timing. Do you still think it would have not grenaded if the timing had been left at 30 degrees advanced when they put the turbo on and had run it up to 15 psi instead of the 7.2? I still don't think you get what stevieturbo et al are trying to say.

LSmonster

iTrader: (2)

^^^DITTO^^^ No dyno or "tuner" required.

enginjoe

iTrader: (11)

This is really cool. Now how do you use one of these in say a 2002 SS without having a christmas tree for a dashboard and being able to pass emissions.

LLLosingit

iTrader: (4)

I get what they are trying to say but to me I think many people can learn these systems and won't need a tuner.
Many people that are going to buy a system already know much if not all of what is needed for setup and basic inputs. Yes there is a learning curve but that's no different than any new build. It doesn't matter what you build small block/big block/ford/chevy/dodge efi or carb you still have to know what it needs for fuel and timing to get the most out of it. These systems are a tool to get that make it easier for people to do it themselves. I can't speak for the other systems but the Holley system takes much of the guess work out of it. If you know the software and know what you have in your build then many people can do it themselves and with some confidence. When I say "many people" I'm talking about people with above average knowledge of the workings of the internal combustion process. There will always be people who don't really understand what they are doing and when they make changes they really don't understand the effect it will have.
I have friends that look at me funny when I ask them what the plugs look like, To me reading plugs is as basic as it gets yet many people look at you like you're the stupid one. I'm building a 6-71 blown 408 that with 16 injectors staged- 8 above the blower and 8 in the manifold running e85, This is my first truly serious build( only the block is GM)and with so many unknowns I'm not going to risk all the money I put into it so I bought a stock LQ4 that's going to be the sacrificial lamb so to speak. I'm putting the blower/injection system/electronics on it until I get the basics ironed out before I switch everything over the new motor.

gsteele

"I'm building a 6-71 blown 408 that with 16 injectors staged- 8 above the blower and 8 in the manifold running e85, This is my first truly serious build( only the block is GM)and with so many unknowns I'm not going to risk all the money I put into it so I bought a stock LQ4 that's going to be the sacrificial lamb so to speak. I'm putting the blower/injection system/electronics on it until I get the basics ironed out before I switch everything over the new motor."

I could not agree more with your points. I am in the process of doing exactly what you are doing with the difference being that I am using turbos.

LLLosingit

iTrader: (4)

I normally wouldn't do it but I'm going to be running a new to me Holley dominator EFI and this on top of my blower, It's a one off piece that was mechanical injection and I'm converting it to EFI. I just wish it were going into something that would show it off instead of being deep inside an engine bay with a hood on it. I have no idea who built it, It's made from parts from an old Pete Jackson injection setup [throttle bodies] and some custom machining. I was told by the person that I bought it from that it was made for a show car and it's plumbed for a 400 shot of nitrous. I already have a place for the IAC but still have to figure out where and how to mount my TPS.

Vcious04

iTrader: (16)

Atomic EFI must be badass if it can automatically adjust perfect afr on the first high boost hit........ Boom....

I don't see how it can adjust in boost and adjust fueling instantly right away. Motor rpms soooooo fast and by the time MSD recieves Wideband info it's already past those fuel tables. ??? Pretty scarey making boost pulls so it can "learn". Most badass tuners don't make "learning" mistakes lol.

But with that being said, I would rather have $2000 to spend on my fuel system and local tune. IMO..

stevieturbo

Again the point is it is not fully self learning.

In this instance the "tuner" is MSD, as they are supplying a base setup that should be safe based on experience and engine modelling, so the learning process for fueling should always err on the safe side.
However, basic fuel setup on power is the easiest aspect of tuning anyway, it's all the other aspects of making an engine package work that require more effort.
People just get fixated on closed loop fuel control for some reason thinking that's everything

69-chvl

iTrader: (11)

Interesting conversation.

I guess we need to define what "self-tuning" even means. For me it means the ecu adjusts to the AFR that I ask for, and I'm totally cool with that. Then some newbies need to get up and running and there's base tunes for that where the ecu "learns" or "self-tunes" what needs to be adjusted - I'm good with that too. It all sounds good to me!

"Dyno tune" for max power means something totally different imo.

meatheadgn

iTrader: (1)

I was new to the forced induction LS world when I went with the Holley HP EFI system. It was pretty straightforward and with my basic tuning skills I made it work and the car started. With the wastegate set at about 0-1 psi of boost I started to make runs and see what needed adjusting. I gradually started to add more boost into it very slowly all the while I had the timing set very low.
Did it self learn to tell me to slowly add boost and not put much timing in it..no it did not but if you expect a system to do basic things for you perhaps we need a different hobby.
I love the Holley system as it is easy to data log and change the parameters if needed.
With that being said I would never build an engine and expect any system to just "learn" as fast as I put boost and timing in it. That sounds like a recipe for disaster.

The main advantage of the Holley system as I see it is that I can street tune the car and avoid the hassle and expense of having a dyno session or HP Tuners credits, etc.