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Building a rearmount turbo. Is it really that simple? how about adding LT?

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Old 09-02-2014, 04:23 AM
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Default Building a rearmount turbo. Is it really that simple? how about adding LT?

Been going a bit crazy with building a budget set up. no matter how I run my numbers and parts etc. Supercharger just cannot make it = price wise.

goal is 450-500whp on full stock 98 ls1. from oil pan to intake.(although ls6 intake may be in the future)

I have tons of experience with turbo set up and built plenty. but never had the need for a rear mount design.
Id like to keep a/c and cost down and rear mount seems to be the best option.

what what I gathered from sts(their kit makes use of factory exhuast system? and weld on the flange to turbo?) seems simply enough. however my stock exhaust has that flat pipe(that i would like to get rid off) and stock cats.

Im thinking since I have 1 7/8 long tubes sitting in my garage and a bunch of 3" piping as im planing a true dual(for s/c set up)

can I use the LT still or will it be too big?

my plans is to use the LT(which has 3" collector) keep it 3" until it meets at the Y and make a custom Y with dual 3" in and single 3" out.
route that over the axle and add a t4 flange for a masterpower t70 w/ .96 ar

or am I better off using stock manifold? the LT is speed engineering so its pretty cheap if its a nice upgrade for flow.


parts list of course are:
mpt70
38mm wastegate(or dual needed?)
intake filter
2.5" intercooler piping
31x12x3.5 FMIC 2.5" in 3" out. then connect to maf and ait then to TB.
50mm bov or maybe my ricey hks( i have one left from my supra days)
downpipe

racetronic and 42# injectors

and tune.

is my list complete?

is there gain to be had using the longtubes vs stock manifold?

how is the turbo held on the sts kit? i dont see any bracket to hold the turbos weight.

also correct me if im wrong but the feed is run all the way from the front? and a scavenge pump is at the back but also push the oil all the way to the front by the oil pan?
Old 09-02-2014, 04:57 AM
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Rear mounts are very tricky. After much reading I decided against it. Like you, I figured the long tubes would be great with a rear mount, but that's not true. There purpose is to reduce back pressure by being very free flowing. But you don't want to lose pressure before the turbo. You need to keep the pressure up to spool the turbine. I would say, use the stock manifolds, single 2.5 pipe back to the turbo with a 3-4in dump after the turbo. The goal is to keep the exhaust feeding the turbo pressurized, while not chocking it in the higher RPMs. I've never actually done a rear mount so I could be wrong.
Old 09-02-2014, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Mongoose350
Rear mounts are very tricky. After much reading I decided against it. Like you, I figured the long tubes would be great with a rear mount, but that's not true. There purpose is to reduce back pressure by being very free flowing. But you don't want to lose pressure before the turbo. You need to keep the pressure up to spool the turbine. I would say, use the stock manifolds, single 2.5 pipe back to the turbo with a 3-4in dump after the turbo. The goal is to keep the exhaust feeding the turbo pressurized, while not chocking it in the higher RPMs. I've never actually done a rear mount so I could be wrong.

when I was doing a search on front mount crossover it seems that 2.5" was on the bigger side for a goal of 500.

but when I look at the rear mount set up stock exhaust is bigger than that.


Id imagine I would loose spool time with bigger pipes pre turbo but if its wrapped up and im able to retain most heat then I should be good?
not to mention it will be a catless system.

if stock is better then will have no problem running 2.5 or even 2" coming back?

the dump after the turbo isnt a concern.

thanks.

hopefully I can get some info from rear mount builders here
Old 09-02-2014, 05:10 AM
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No problem. There's a long thread on here from a guy that did a rear mount and all the trail and error he went through. Long tubes was one if the things he found to be no good. I'll see if I can find it again and link it.
Old 09-02-2014, 05:11 AM
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why not put the turbo in the front where it belongs? should be pretty simple to put a single turbo upfront and retain all accessories.
Old 09-02-2014, 05:15 AM
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Eer ya go!
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-induction/822122-zombie-rear-mount-turbo-saga.html?styleid=27

I'm on my phone, might have to copy and paste to your browser.
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Old 09-02-2014, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by AKAFRED
why not put the turbo in the front where it belongs? should be pretty simple to put a single turbo upfront and retain all accessories.
"should be" but not really(unless i missed it during my search)

from what I found it gets really tight up front if keeping a/c.

in my search truck manifold can be used and best option on budget BUT it goes straight through the a/c compressor. so thats no go.

Ive seen people fabbing up their own headers... Im not skilled enough.

but if you know of another budget option please lmk.
pics prefered.
Old 09-02-2014, 07:36 AM
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i've been down this road in terms of research many times. It ultimately comes down to why you want the 450-500hp? street cruiser or racer? If it's a street cruiser that's fine. When you say supercharger is too expensive, that is the least intrusive way to get that power level and used setups are in the 2500-3000 range to get you that power level.

You'll certainly spend about 2k putting together a piecemeal kit...
let's play...at bare minimum on the cheap:
-reliable oil pump (turbowerx) -350
-turbo - on3 350
-wastegate ebay- 100
-used 42lb injectors (minimum size) - 100
-fuel pump upgrade kit - 200
-ebay intercooler -150
-cold side parts (connectors, tclamps, pipe) -400
-hot side wrap - 100
-air filter - 50
-welding, install labor - 400-500?

That's over 2k right there and I'm sure another 400-500 in small stuff is missing. Even if you do it all yourself, I bet you'll still be right around 2k at the cheapest.
Old 09-02-2014, 01:22 PM
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Your HP goal is nothing. Use all factory exhaust/manifolds... even the "flat pipe". Get rid of (or hollow out) the cats.

No IC needed for your HP goals either IMO. Use a meth/water inj kit instead. Keep the charge piping small too. 2"-2.25" is fine. Don't use huge piping. It has no benefit at your power levels and will add to the "lag".

No matter how much you wrap, you lose alot of heat energy putting the turbo in the back. Size the turbo appropriately for your goals and use. Look at the ptrim (64-65mm) exh wheels w/ 1.0 or smaller AR exh. and a 68-71mm charger.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/On-3-Performance-70mm-Turbocharger-t4-Camaro-Firebird-/131285867480?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item1e913f5bd8&vxp=mtr
Old 09-02-2014, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by merim123
i've been down this road in terms of research many times. It ultimately comes down to why you want the 450-500hp? street cruiser or racer? If it's a street cruiser that's fine. When you say supercharger is too expensive, that is the least intrusive way to get that power level and used setups are in the 2500-3000 range to get you that power level.
unless you plan stock exhaust with s/c then youll need more money for s/c set up.

street cruiser

not sure I follow that parts list.

and I can weld/fab(I have done so before and familiar with making merge and such.)
main reason why this is on the cheaper end for me.

powerdyne s/c excluded since the hit or miss reliability.


next option is vortech. lets say 2500(which is cheap end of used.)
then LT = 300
dual 3" piping = 270
bullet muffler x2 = 100
vband clamps/hangers etc let say=50

total cost = 3220 +-

not to mention I dont like the a/w intercooler so i would upgrade that to a/a + 250

let say 3400

I dont think these came with pump and injectors.

I already have 42# in my garage so I wont factor that in.
Racetronic pump will also be installed turbo or s/c so this wont be factored in.



turbo price list goes as follow
intercooler 150
piping kit X2 @88 a kit = 200
bov = 100
38mm wastegate = 60
wrap = 100
air filter = 50
turbo = 700
turbo werx = 350
10an aluminum line (return)=30
4an steel line or breided = 30
fittings etc = 50

1800

doubtfull ill need more than 400 of extra parts though. more like 300 at maximun.

so 2.1k.


I havent done my search on those on3 turbo but if they are reliable then thats minus 300 for total of 1800.
Old 09-02-2014, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Forcefed86
Your HP goal is nothing. Use all factory exhaust/manifolds... even the "flat pipe". Get rid of (or hollow out) the cats.

No IC needed for your HP goals either IMO. Use a meth/water inj kit instead. Keep the charge piping small too. 2"-2.25" is fine. Don't use huge piping. It has no benefit at your power levels and will add to the "lag".

No matter how much you wrap, you lose alot of heat energy putting the turbo in the back. Size the turbo appropriately for your goals and use. Look at the ptrim (64-65mm) exh wheels w/ 1.0 or smaller AR exh. and a 68-71mm charger.

On 3 Performance 70mm turbocharger T4 Camaro Firebird | eBay
interesting stock will definitely keep the cost to a minimum. cats diffinitely will be cutout.

I have considered 2" or 2.25" its good to know that it will suppose my goal without restriction.

as far as meth go. its cheaper to go intercooler vs meth kit
Old 09-02-2014, 07:49 PM
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http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...unt-c5z06.html
Old 09-02-2014, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by LS325ci
interesting stock will definitely keep the cost to a minimum. cats diffinitely will be cutout.

I have considered 2" or 2.25" its good to know that it will suppose my goal without restriction.

as far as meth go. its cheaper to go intercooler vs meth kit
A good IC isn't cheaper and will add more volume/lag to the system. Cheap IC's will also have poor pressure drop across the core, again contributing to lag. The exact opposite of what i'd be looking to accomplish with a remote kit. IMO you'd want as little volume as possible in the system and smallest turbo and hotside necessary to still reach your power goal.

The remote mounts tend to have lower IAT's as well as some of the heat is dissipated running the charge pipe the length of the car.

Last edited by Forcefed86; 09-02-2014 at 09:11 PM.
Old 09-02-2014, 11:05 PM
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Forcefed86 is giving some solid advice for how best to make some lemonade if you are dead set on starting with lemons. It may not sound right from an NA point of view but he's right on the money here.
Old 09-02-2014, 11:43 PM
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thanks for the link. good read so far.

Originally Posted by Forcefed86
A good IC isn't cheaper and will add more volume/lag to the system. Cheap IC's will also have poor pressure drop across the core, again contributing to lag. The exact opposite of what i'd be looking to accomplish with a remote kit. IMO you'd want as little volume as possible in the system and smallest turbo and hotside necessary to still reach your power goal.

The remote mounts tend to have lower IAT's as well as some of the heat is dissipated running the charge pipe the length of the car.
for a street i really doubt its as bad as it sounds. any intercooler will have pressure drop. doubfull youll notice the difference on the street with a v8. although ive never ran a IC vs just meth. I know with meth though you can tune a bit more aggressive.

lag is always up in a turbo discussion which makes we wonder if anyone ever preload their turbo when they are "racing"

if I can preload a 4 banger to be on boost on roll or dead stop, lag with v8 will be very minimal if at that.

good meth kit cost around what 300+.
but for a dd I would want the bells and wistle that lets me know if the pump isnt working and such = more $$


I have considered meth though b/c of the following reason.
1. less weight up front vs intercooler. car could use more weight in the back so adding turbo and meth back there only helps weight distribution.
2. Ill be able to spray right away since i wont have an IC with meth. I can spray as soon as it exits the turbo compressor.
3. no modification needed to fit a big front mount = MASSIVE plus as I dont have an intention on removing my bumper support.


downside.
1. one more thing to monitor on a dd.
2. one more system that could fail./worry about.
3. ^^ bells and whistle is a must imo=more money

overall its a good option and may decide to go that route. but for now IC


edit im curious how far can you push the meth kit without IC.
Old 09-03-2014, 12:06 AM
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I run a rear mount and I love it. Ive been around front mounts and both have there advantages and disses. Spool times are not a problem with a smaller turbo. Get compliments all the time when I drive it. Fast is fast. Never built my car to be king of the streets...but it will hold its own.
Old 09-03-2014, 12:54 AM
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For such a low hp goal why not cam and spray it?
Old 09-03-2014, 09:19 AM
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A good fart down the intake will make 500hp on an LS1. Can’t really go wrong if that’s your only goal. There’s a big difference in throwing together something that works… and designing a system that works well. When I built my LS turbo setup I just copied what others had been doing instead of researching and understanding. I wish someone with experience would have helped me design something that worked well. I’d do things a lot differently knowing what I know now.

Just trying to help… good luck!

I see a few flaws in your reasoning.

Yes, any IC will have a pressure drop. But cheap (sub $300) china A2A IC’s have a much worse pressure drop than a quality core IC. This makes a huge difference in IAT temps as the turbo has to make 3-5 additional lbs (or more depending on boost level) to get your desired boost at the intake manifold. Some of the China cores are so bad I’ve seen setups make more power removing them completely. As you pointed out weight and space is a factor, don’t forget cooling. Putting an IC in front of a factory radiator drops the cooling systems efficiency a ton . Many times this results in radiator and fan upgrades. (expensive) It will also block air going to you’re A/C condenser. Since you seem to be against water/meth, have you considered a small A2W IC? You could remote mount it and the A2W cores tend to have much less pressure drop across the core. A lot of weight and hassle for your power goal IMO, but there’s no arguing that they work well.

As far as meth kit cost reliability goes… The performance per dollar/time invested with a meth kit is the best part. They are dirt cheap when compared to a “good” A2A IC and the amount of work it takes to install one. At low boost levels (like you’ll be running) they work better than an IC IMO. For “Bells and Whistles” I run an AFR safety system. If the AFR doesn’t match my target table with a half point or so the ECU drops IGN. (can also be setup to sound an alarm, trigger a light, etc.) Not sure what your using ECU wise but AEM’s WB02 sensor/gauges have the feature as well. I’d want this safety feature whether running alky inj or not. It would cover your safety worries either way. As far as cost goes you could put together a simple DIY meth/water kit for about $200. How far you can push it depends on the amount of methanol you spray IMO. I always had the best luck using 100% methanol and spraying LOTS of meth. A 5.7 reving to 6k at 10lbs should spray about 20GPH of straight methanol or 10gph of 50/50 water meth mix at the throttle body. To aid a bit in charge cooling I’d placing a few tiny 1-2gph nozzles along the charge pipe length and 1 pre-turbo. That would be more than enough for a 500hp pump gas LS1 setup IMO.

Been drag racing turbo street cars for 15+ years. (new to LS world though) I wish it was as simple/easy as just “preloading the turbo”. It’s all a balancing act. You want to run the tightest converter possible, especially on a street car. The more volume and pressure drop you have in the system the harder it is to “get up on” the converter to get the turbo spooled. This is made worse by the heat loss with a remote kit. Throwing a loose converter in the mix will build boost off the line. It will also cause excessive heat build-up and more slippage across the board resulting in slower trap speeds.

Your 4cyl to 8cyl argument would only be valid if the charger size stayed the same. The size of the turbo is relevant to the size of the motor. A turbo small enough to light off instantly on a remote mounted “v8” will choke the motor severely in the upper RPM. Again… it’s a balancing act.
Old 09-03-2014, 12:59 PM
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No nitrous- I'm a bit paranoid about that one. I've never used one but I would be keeping my tank 24/7 in car. Rain or blazing sun. If I wanted that power on track I wouldn't have a problem. But ok a dd I'd imagine my tank would empty out fast.






Thanks for the reply.
I'll be running stock ecu with just a tune from a local shop.

I didn't know you can build a kit for that cheap. I'll looks into it a bit more. If I can have my warning lights/buzzer for 300-350 I'd definitely go meth.


As far as spraying. Wouldn't spraying right after the compressor be enough? I mean that's a few feet from back of the car to front. Plenty of time and space to do its job.

I'm just a bit worried about spraying pre turbine and it not atomizing and eating up the blades slowly.


Btw any experience with on3?
Their turbo is only 300 for 70mm.

Do you think their. 68 is a better option for the street vs. 96?
Old 09-03-2014, 01:48 PM
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If you don’t have it, you’ll need a WB02 anyway. Gauge is $275. Displays boost/VAC has on board data logging and a warning/alarm output.

Amazon.com: AEM 30-4900 Wideband Failsafe Gauge: Automotive Amazon.com: AEM 30-4900 Wideband Failsafe Gauge: Automotive


If I were only going to run one nozzle, it would be at the throttle body. With alky inj, you want the majority sprayed as close the combustion chamber as possible. You can install small additional nozzles as I mentioned above to aid charge cooling. For the additional cost of a few check-valves/fittings and nozzles it’s well worth it. The push-lock fittings and hoses are very easy to work with. Again… don’t listen to everything you hear. If you research a little you’d see pre-turbo injection is plenty safe these days if done correctly. It is done with tiny nozzles with high pressure/atomization. I’ve done it on many of my builds and never seen a damaged compressor.

No direct experience with On3. Know a few guys at the local strip that run them and haven’t had any issues. I’d look in the .84-.96 ranges. .68 is too small for a 5.7 IMO. I have run the CXracing and EMusa turbos in the past and they never gave me any problems. I also didn’t put a ton of miles on the stuff.

I’d look into something like this if your looking at china turbos.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EMUSA-T72-Turbo-Charger-TurboCharger-84AR-P-Trim-T4-Supra-RX7-RX8-7MGTE-/230892188510?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35c23f335e&vxp=mtr


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