MS3-Pro Engine Management System.......anyone use it...?
03-28-2018, 04:32 PM
#70
I tuned a gold box recently for a friends swap, nothing fancy with the outputs though. I haven't even added boost control yet but I want to try it next.
125OS in my swap car from a 02-tahoe has flex fuel, its a 411 pcm red/blue not sure if that helps, VE table is massive and its been pretty easy and reliable,
I used 2-bar custom OS and 4l80e segment swap.
All said, the factory ecu is much more slow to deal with (no real time). I miss the real time of a real stand-alone. I know some factory PCM can do it but my 411 cannot with 2-bar OS I guess. Besides that, however, its pretty much a watered down version of most stand-alones, with a ton of additional/unnecessary other sort of input/output features that you could re-purpose multiple ways. In other words, its almost as good, depending how electronically adept the user is, and how much time you want to spend doing things, and cost what $40 for a computer that does flex and 150lb injectors and controls the 4l80e? Yeah that sounds better than $1400 lol
125OS in my swap car from a 02-tahoe has flex fuel, its a 411 pcm red/blue not sure if that helps, VE table is massive and its been pretty easy and reliable,
I used 2-bar custom OS and 4l80e segment swap.
All said, the factory ecu is much more slow to deal with (no real time). I miss the real time of a real stand-alone. I know some factory PCM can do it but my 411 cannot with 2-bar OS I guess. Besides that, however, its pretty much a watered down version of most stand-alones, with a ton of additional/unnecessary other sort of input/output features that you could re-purpose multiple ways. In other words, its almost as good, depending how electronically adept the user is, and how much time you want to spend doing things, and cost what $40 for a computer that does flex and 150lb injectors and controls the 4l80e? Yeah that sounds better than $1400 lol
03-28-2018, 04:56 PM
#71
I tuned a gold box recently for a friends swap, nothing fancy with the outputs though. I haven't even added boost control yet but I want to try it next.
125OS in my swap car from a 02-tahoe has flex fuel, its a 411 pcm red/blue not sure if that helps, VE table is massive and its been pretty easy and reliable,
I used 2-bar custom OS and 4l80e segment swap.
All said, the factory ecu is much more slow to deal with (no real time). I miss the real time of a real stand-alone. I know some factory PCM can do it but my 411 cannot with 2-bar OS I guess. Besides that, however, its pretty much a watered down version of most stand-alones, with a ton of additional/unnecessary other sort of input/output features that you could re-purpose multiple ways. In other words, its almost as good, depending how electronically adept the user is, and how much time you want to spend doing things, and cost what $40 for a computer that does flex and 150lb injectors and controls the 4l80e? Yeah that sounds better than $1400 lol
125OS in my swap car from a 02-tahoe has flex fuel, its a 411 pcm red/blue not sure if that helps, VE table is massive and its been pretty easy and reliable,
I used 2-bar custom OS and 4l80e segment swap.
All said, the factory ecu is much more slow to deal with (no real time). I miss the real time of a real stand-alone. I know some factory PCM can do it but my 411 cannot with 2-bar OS I guess. Besides that, however, its pretty much a watered down version of most stand-alones, with a ton of additional/unnecessary other sort of input/output features that you could re-purpose multiple ways. In other words, its almost as good, depending how electronically adept the user is, and how much time you want to spend doing things, and cost what $40 for a computer that does flex and 150lb injectors and controls the 4l80e? Yeah that sounds better than $1400 lol
Will it work all my 1998 gauges and sensors?
Where did you find one for $40.00.....?
Is this it:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Cont...5ap2PN&vxp=mtr
.
03-28-2018, 10:50 PM
#72
1998 is its own bastardize child, if you want anything decent you will either have to repin your harness to 411 ecu or buy a new harness that works with the 411 ecu.
You say a standalone ecu is worthless, but if you look at common items turbo guys buy it doesn't seem like its that much more.
2step - $200
Wideband - $200
Bump box - $300
Boost controller (electronic ) - $500
So $1300 in just add-ons if you want to legitimately race a turbo car somewhat competitively.
You can get into a ms3pro for not much more and it will do all of the above plus more. Individual fuel trims, individual cylinder timing, ect, you can literally set it up to do anything you can think of.
The biggest draw toward aftermarket ecu's is the safeties built in that can save a motor. Loose fuel pressure or boost gets outta control, the aftermarket ecu can compensate for that. A 411 ecu does not have that capability.
You say a standalone ecu is worthless, but if you look at common items turbo guys buy it doesn't seem like its that much more.
2step - $200
Wideband - $200
Bump box - $300
Boost controller (electronic ) - $500
So $1300 in just add-ons if you want to legitimately race a turbo car somewhat competitively.
You can get into a ms3pro for not much more and it will do all of the above plus more. Individual fuel trims, individual cylinder timing, ect, you can literally set it up to do anything you can think of.
The biggest draw toward aftermarket ecu's is the safeties built in that can save a motor. Loose fuel pressure or boost gets outta control, the aftermarket ecu can compensate for that. A 411 ecu does not have that capability.
03-29-2018, 09:14 AM
#73
1998 is its own bastardize child, if you want anything decent you will either have to repin your harness to 411 ecu or buy a new harness that works with the 411 ecu.
You say a standalone ecu is worthless, but if you look at common items turbo guys buy it doesn't seem like its that much more.
2step - $200
Wideband - $200
Bump box - $300
Boost controller (electronic ) - $500
So $1300 in just add-ons if you want to legitimately race a turbo car somewhat competitively.
You can get into a ms3pro for not much more and it will do all of the above plus more. Individual fuel trims, individual cylinder timing, ect, you can literally set it up to do anything you can think of.
The biggest draw toward aftermarket ecu's is the safeties built in that can save a motor. Loose fuel pressure or boost gets outta control, the aftermarket ecu can compensate for that. A 411 ecu does not have that capability.
You say a standalone ecu is worthless, but if you look at common items turbo guys buy it doesn't seem like its that much more.
2step - $200
Wideband - $200
Bump box - $300
Boost controller (electronic ) - $500
So $1300 in just add-ons if you want to legitimately race a turbo car somewhat competitively.
You can get into a ms3pro for not much more and it will do all of the above plus more. Individual fuel trims, individual cylinder timing, ect, you can literally set it up to do anything you can think of.
The biggest draw toward aftermarket ecu's is the safeties built in that can save a motor. Loose fuel pressure or boost gets outta control, the aftermarket ecu can compensate for that. A 411 ecu does not have that capability.
I just need to keep my factory gauge cluster as is.....
If the 411 will work for Flex-Fuel and 20psi....from a Positive Displacement Supercharger......this would be best and not so crazy expensive.
.
03-29-2018, 03:28 PM
#74
Never said worthless.....just way too expensive to justify in a 100% street car. I was going to absolutely get a new wiring harness (or re-pin mine) and than use a 99+ 411 PCM or the P59.
I just need to keep my factory gauge cluster as is.....
If the 411 will work for Flex-Fuel and 20psi....from a Positive Displacement Supercharger......this would be best and not so crazy expensive.
.
I just need to keep my factory gauge cluster as is.....
If the 411 will work for Flex-Fuel and 20psi....from a Positive Displacement Supercharger......this would be best and not so crazy expensive.
.
not all of us run bump box, 2-stage, nitrous, brake, etc.. obviously if you have that kind of $$ invested you need the real computer to protect it.
Stock ECU is good for when you just want to drive it like a daily, but you also wanted 700 to the tire or w/e
Also you can use the 2-bar @ 20psi I do it all the time. You program the final row of the fuel table as if it were that 20psi or 22psi of boost and the engine simply dips a bit rich as it passes from 15psi to 22psi on the way. In this sense you can think of the boost controller as an A/F adjustment dial once you passed 14.5psi. Since it only takes a split second to get from 14 to 22psi, you barely notice. IMO this is much better since as street cars we need all the resolution we can get on the fuel map, i.e. I would trade that little rich blip for 33% more fuel map tuning resolution, yes thank you very much I will
03-30-2018, 08:20 AM
#76
Well boost control is integral to all turbo setups. You don't need an expensive internal controller for that basic use. I usually get a greddy profec B Spec-2 for $120 shipped from somebody on a forum when I need one. Otherwise there are custom IC that can do the job for about $40 in hardware if you know how to board one.
As to the other stuff, its strictly for drag racing, which is impossible on a street tire, which is all a street car runs. So power at that point is more about creatively getting it to the ground, and traction control, which can be negotiated easily on a turbo setup since there are so many factors which control boost rate to play with, without getting too technical.
You see guys all the time mash the pedal stupidly on the highway and complain their **** breaks loose with 350 to the tire at 60mph. Well yeah cause ur doing it wrong. Traction with power has so many factors, you can lose it with a 200hp truck engine and the right gearing.
As to the other stuff, its strictly for drag racing, which is impossible on a street tire, which is all a street car runs. So power at that point is more about creatively getting it to the ground, and traction control, which can be negotiated easily on a turbo setup since there are so many factors which control boost rate to play with, without getting too technical.
You see guys all the time mash the pedal stupidly on the highway and complain their **** breaks loose with 350 to the tire at 60mph. Well yeah cause ur doing it wrong. Traction with power has so many factors, you can lose it with a 200hp truck engine and the right gearing.
03-30-2018, 01:28 PM
#78
This,
not all of us run bump box, 2-stage, nitrous, brake, etc.. obviously if you have that kind of $$ invested you need the real computer to protect it.
Stock ECU is good for when you just want to drive it like a daily, but you also wanted 700 to the tire or w/e
Also you can use the 2-bar @ 20psi I do it all the time. You program the final row of the fuel table as if it were that 20psi or 22psi of boost and the engine simply dips a bit rich as it passes from 15psi to 22psi on the way. In this sense you can think of the boost controller as an A/F adjustment dial once you passed 14.5psi. Since it only takes a split second to get from 14 to 22psi, you barely notice. IMO this is much better since as street cars we need all the resolution we can get on the fuel map, i.e. I would trade that little rich blip for 33% more fuel map tuning resolution, yes thank you very much I will
not all of us run bump box, 2-stage, nitrous, brake, etc.. obviously if you have that kind of $$ invested you need the real computer to protect it.
Stock ECU is good for when you just want to drive it like a daily, but you also wanted 700 to the tire or w/e
Also you can use the 2-bar @ 20psi I do it all the time. You program the final row of the fuel table as if it were that 20psi or 22psi of boost and the engine simply dips a bit rich as it passes from 15psi to 22psi on the way. In this sense you can think of the boost controller as an A/F adjustment dial once you passed 14.5psi. Since it only takes a split second to get from 14 to 22psi, you barely notice. IMO this is much better since as street cars we need all the resolution we can get on the fuel map, i.e. I would trade that little rich blip for 33% more fuel map tuning resolution, yes thank you very much I will
It WILL make more than 1,000 RWHP......and I'll be using E85 fuel full time.
Do you see a problem using the P59 PCM....and the limited VE tables as "Monte4ever" mentioned...?
.
03-31-2018, 04:07 PM
#79
When someone mentions limited ve table means low/poor resolution.
The same thing happens when you got from 1bar to 2-bar map sensor, you lost half the VE table to get an extra bar of tuning cells.
Some stand-alone can re-map the VE table to look better, giving more resolution where you want it. I don't think you can do that in OEM ecu though (didn't try it, not sure but doubt it from what I've seen, I probably would have noticed by now). and even if you can do it, the sensor itself is still voltage limited with respect to resolution. In other words, map sensor only works from 0-5volts, whether its 1bar, 2bar, 3bar, etc... So you still only have those same voltage increments from 0-5 regardless of what your VE table says.
To put it another way, your "true" resolution is in the map sensor itself. This is why we want a dedicated map vacuum line large enough and short as possible, a properly positioned sensor(some prefer to be "standing up"), shielded wire if possible, to get the best/fastest signal we can from the map.
And the rest is tuning/experience, it can be done with less resolution I am sure, it just means you might have to give up a tiny bit of fuel economy in some very specific low injector pulse regions is all. The WOT portions actually prefer the less resolution type setups, i.e. WOT tuning is 1% of tuning the engine and the rest 99% is low speed drivability and economy related. So if you don't absolutely need 30mpg and low speed perfect drivability etc.. you won't care about the low resolution issues.
The same thing happens when you got from 1bar to 2-bar map sensor, you lost half the VE table to get an extra bar of tuning cells.
Some stand-alone can re-map the VE table to look better, giving more resolution where you want it. I don't think you can do that in OEM ecu though (didn't try it, not sure but doubt it from what I've seen, I probably would have noticed by now). and even if you can do it, the sensor itself is still voltage limited with respect to resolution. In other words, map sensor only works from 0-5volts, whether its 1bar, 2bar, 3bar, etc... So you still only have those same voltage increments from 0-5 regardless of what your VE table says.
To put it another way, your "true" resolution is in the map sensor itself. This is why we want a dedicated map vacuum line large enough and short as possible, a properly positioned sensor(some prefer to be "standing up"), shielded wire if possible, to get the best/fastest signal we can from the map.
And the rest is tuning/experience, it can be done with less resolution I am sure, it just means you might have to give up a tiny bit of fuel economy in some very specific low injector pulse regions is all. The WOT portions actually prefer the less resolution type setups, i.e. WOT tuning is 1% of tuning the engine and the rest 99% is low speed drivability and economy related. So if you don't absolutely need 30mpg and low speed perfect drivability etc.. you won't care about the low resolution issues.