Why no inline "booster" pumps?
I was going to make a thread but figure I would post in here since we are on the subject.
I have a E85 fed 408 with VSR billet 80 currently guesstimating about 780whp
FID 1300's at 50psi base boost referenced and Holley 12-1800 pump.
The way it sits now at 13psi I'm already at 95% IDC
Currently I have the second pump in the Holley coming on at 1psi
I'd like to add a Bosch 044 or AEM 380 inline but my question is how?
I was told it would be a bad idea to run the pump on a Hobbs or check valve directly inline because the Holley pump would have to push thru a dead pump so I would need to Y it off. That project can get expensive!
Can I not run the 044 on constant as well as the 1st Holley pump then have my second pump remain on the Hobbs at 1psi? In that configuration the Holley pump shouldn't have any restriction going thru the Bosch since it will always be on.
if I did that I'd be going from -12 feed to -8 Bosch pump then back to -12 feed then goes to my Holley pump. Would that cause a issue?
Which pump do you guys recommend I run inline with my combo? I will probably be around 70-75psi of total pressure looking to make around 950-1000whp
I have a E85 fed 408 with VSR billet 80 currently guesstimating about 780whp
FID 1300's at 50psi base boost referenced and Holley 12-1800 pump.
The way it sits now at 13psi I'm already at 95% IDC
Currently I have the second pump in the Holley coming on at 1psi
I'd like to add a Bosch 044 or AEM 380 inline but my question is how?
I was told it would be a bad idea to run the pump on a Hobbs or check valve directly inline because the Holley pump would have to push thru a dead pump so I would need to Y it off. That project can get expensive!
Can I not run the 044 on constant as well as the 1st Holley pump then have my second pump remain on the Hobbs at 1psi? In that configuration the Holley pump shouldn't have any restriction going thru the Bosch since it will always be on.
if I did that I'd be going from -12 feed to -8 Bosch pump then back to -12 feed then goes to my Holley pump. Would that cause a issue?
Which pump do you guys recommend I run inline with my combo? I will probably be around 70-75psi of total pressure looking to make around 950-1000whp
Last edited by slowlsx; Aug 21, 2017 at 03:56 AM.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 8,478
Likes: 1,022
From: Wichita, KS
There isn’t much resistance pushing through an 044 style pump with the pump off. Since your Holley is setup to only use 1 pump as well to cruise on, I really don’t see an inline pump as an issue. Been done a million times. The single Holley pump even with a little bit of restriction is 10x more than you need to idle and cruise on. When you’re in boost, all 3 pumps will be on so it’s a non-issue IMO.
That’s relatively low pressure. You aren’t going to get much of a volume bump as is noted above. I’d run total pressure around 90 to get the most out of that setup. Otherwise there’s no real reason to run the pump in series.
That’s relatively low pressure. You aren’t going to get much of a volume bump as is noted above. I’d run total pressure around 90 to get the most out of that setup. Otherwise there’s no real reason to run the pump in series.
There isn’t much resistance pushing through an 044 style pump with the pump off. Since your Holley is setup to only use 1 pump as well to cruise on, I really don’t see an inline pump as an issue. Been done a million times. The single Holley pump even with a little bit of restriction is 10x more than you need to idle and cruise on. When you’re in boost, all 3 pumps will be on so it’s a non-issue IMO.
That’s relatively low pressure. You aren’t going to get much of a volume bump as is noted above. I’d run total pressure around 90 to get the most out of that setup. Otherwise there’s no real reason to run the pump in series.
That’s relatively low pressure. You aren’t going to get much of a volume bump as is noted above. I’d run total pressure around 90 to get the most out of that setup. Otherwise there’s no real reason to run the pump in series.
On the last sentence are you suggesting I try my current 12-1800 with more pressure totaling 90psi or close it before I try adding a 3rd pump?
I was going to make a thread but figure I would post in here since we are on the subject.
I have a E85 fed 408 with VSR billet 80 currently guesstimating about 780whp
FID 1300's at 50psi base boost referenced and Holley 12-1800 pump.
The way it sits now at 13psi I'm already at 95% IDC
Currently I have the second pump in the Holley coming on at 1psi
I'd like to add a Bosch 044 or AEM 380 inline but my question is how?
I was told it would be a bad idea to run the pump on a Hobbs or check valve directly inline because the Holley pump would have to push thru a dead pump so I would need to Y it off. That project can get expensive!
Can I not run the 044 on constant as well as the 1st Holley pump then have my second pump remain on the Hobbs at 1psi? In that configuration the Holley pump shouldn't have any restriction going thru the Bosch since it will always be on.
if I did that I'd be going from -12 feed to -8 Bosch pump then back to -12 feed then goes to my Holley pump. Would that cause a issue?
Which pump do you guys recommend I run inline with my combo? I will probably be around 70-75psi of total pressure looking to make around 950-1000whp
I have a E85 fed 408 with VSR billet 80 currently guesstimating about 780whp
FID 1300's at 50psi base boost referenced and Holley 12-1800 pump.
The way it sits now at 13psi I'm already at 95% IDC
Currently I have the second pump in the Holley coming on at 1psi
I'd like to add a Bosch 044 or AEM 380 inline but my question is how?
I was told it would be a bad idea to run the pump on a Hobbs or check valve directly inline because the Holley pump would have to push thru a dead pump so I would need to Y it off. That project can get expensive!
Can I not run the 044 on constant as well as the 1st Holley pump then have my second pump remain on the Hobbs at 1psi? In that configuration the Holley pump shouldn't have any restriction going thru the Bosch since it will always be on.
if I did that I'd be going from -12 feed to -8 Bosch pump then back to -12 feed then goes to my Holley pump. Would that cause a issue?
Which pump do you guys recommend I run inline with my combo? I will probably be around 70-75psi of total pressure looking to make around 950-1000whp
If your IDC is at 95% then your out of injector. That pump is designed for 1800hp on pump gas.
the 12-1800 is good for:
190 GPH @ 8psi
156 GPH @ 43psi
140 GPH @ 60psi
NA FI
2100HP 1600HP @ 8psi
1800HP 1400HP @ 43psi
1600HP 1200HP @ 60psi
That pump is also max flow rated at 80psi which is the max it should be run and the 12-800 is a race pump and not designed for street use or use over 20 min and above 90*F ambient. Depending on your drivetrain loss you could get away with just the Holley pump (E85 is rated lower power wise) but I think your prob going to out of pump but barely. You could run the 12-1800 into a 12-890 (they have been proven to support 1000hp) to get a small bump in flow and pressure but they are also limited to 80psi so I wouldn't recommend 90psi on any of the holley stuff.
I think your just out of injector if the IDC is at 95% at 13psi. I would change them out and leave the pump as is and see what the fuel does running through a properly sized injector for that combo. If you see fuel pressure dropping in higher boost or your leaning out on the top end even when your adding fuel then you need more pump.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 8,478
Likes: 1,022
From: Wichita, KS
You’re 1300’s should be more than enough for those power levels. I’d guess the pressure is falling on the pump and DC is rising to compensate? Do you log pressure?
I wasn’t sure how much boost you plan on running. General rule of thumb is keep the total pressure under 100. I know mechanical pump guys that run over 100 without issue as well… But it’s not recommended by most injector manufacturers.
IMO that series of Holley pump is crap. They don’t put out near their rated power levels, aren’t compatible with ethanol or pump gas, and the pumps capabilities/specs change on a monthly basis. They even go as far as to say it’s not a pump for a street use. The failure rate is also extremely high, though some have had good luck with them.
They use to basically be 2 255 or 2 340 in-tank pumps in a fancy case and they don’t’ cool properly in that case. They have an internal bypass and flow poorly at higher pressures as well. If I remember right its around 80psi? (might double check that.) But the flow rate at even 60-70psi drops like a rock. Anyway, last I checked the Holley pump setup won’t handle the higher pressures well at all.
With the 3rd pump in series you’ll be able to make lots of pressure and the Holley will supply a lower pressure feed to the booster pump. Should work wel. Personally I’d sell that Holley pump and run 2 AEM380’s or 3 GSL392 HP walbros. Both would be capable of more flow at higher pressures for less $. Reliability on the AEM380 is still questionable IMO. They haven’t been out long enough to get a good feel yet. I’ll say mine makes odd noises at random intervals, and it might have 10 hours on it so far.
I wasn’t sure how much boost you plan on running. General rule of thumb is keep the total pressure under 100. I know mechanical pump guys that run over 100 without issue as well… But it’s not recommended by most injector manufacturers.
IMO that series of Holley pump is crap. They don’t put out near their rated power levels, aren’t compatible with ethanol or pump gas, and the pumps capabilities/specs change on a monthly basis. They even go as far as to say it’s not a pump for a street use. The failure rate is also extremely high, though some have had good luck with them.
They use to basically be 2 255 or 2 340 in-tank pumps in a fancy case and they don’t’ cool properly in that case. They have an internal bypass and flow poorly at higher pressures as well. If I remember right its around 80psi? (might double check that.) But the flow rate at even 60-70psi drops like a rock. Anyway, last I checked the Holley pump setup won’t handle the higher pressures well at all.
With the 3rd pump in series you’ll be able to make lots of pressure and the Holley will supply a lower pressure feed to the booster pump. Should work wel. Personally I’d sell that Holley pump and run 2 AEM380’s or 3 GSL392 HP walbros. Both would be capable of more flow at higher pressures for less $. Reliability on the AEM380 is still questionable IMO. They haven’t been out long enough to get a good feel yet. I’ll say mine makes odd noises at random intervals, and it might have 10 hours on it so far.
The 12-1800 pump even on e85 (says its compatible) should be enough for 800whp. Ive also heard alot of issues with the 12-1800 pump not working well on the street and thats where lots of the failures come from. To back holley up they do say its not street rated as I said in my earlier post. They are also rated for 20 min run time and less than 90*F ambient temps. So running these on the street is clearly a bad idea.
I ran the 12-1400 holley on my 521 BBF (1 pump only) for 2+ years and never had an issue. It originally was used as a low pressure Carb pump (prosystems 1000) and then as a fast EZ EFI 2.0 at EFI pressure and it worked great for both. That car saw a few track days but 95% street, and I mean hot summer 100+F humid *** days and it never skipped a beat. It was actually quieter than my Stealth 340 intank and my walbro 450 intank that I run now.
As Forcefed86 has said I wouldnt see an issue running pumps in series but your going to need alot of flow of e85 for 1000whp. What if you ran the 12-1200 Holley (1 pump on for street driving) and have the 2nd pump and a 340/380lph inline (in series) kick on for boost? You can also run lower fuel pressures to help offset the fuel flow loss at higher pressures. BAsically run 43psi base vs 50/58psi so you can get alittle more out of the pump as pressure increases due to boost.
I ran the 12-1400 holley on my 521 BBF (1 pump only) for 2+ years and never had an issue. It originally was used as a low pressure Carb pump (prosystems 1000) and then as a fast EZ EFI 2.0 at EFI pressure and it worked great for both. That car saw a few track days but 95% street, and I mean hot summer 100+F humid *** days and it never skipped a beat. It was actually quieter than my Stealth 340 intank and my walbro 450 intank that I run now.
As Forcefed86 has said I wouldnt see an issue running pumps in series but your going to need alot of flow of e85 for 1000whp. What if you ran the 12-1200 Holley (1 pump on for street driving) and have the 2nd pump and a 340/380lph inline (in series) kick on for boost? You can also run lower fuel pressures to help offset the fuel flow loss at higher pressures. BAsically run 43psi base vs 50/58psi so you can get alittle more out of the pump as pressure increases due to boost.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 8,478
Likes: 1,022
From: Wichita, KS
As mentioned Holley has revised the website and pumps MANY times. Originally it said nothing about overheating. And they did have a bypass. Now the sight states there is no bypass. The 1600 (which they suggest to use for daily pump gas applications) states it isn’t E85 compatible… yet but the 1800 is?
Anyway it’s a giant cluster and a poor design IMO. Stay away from it if you want great performance at reasonable cost. Cruising about 45 mins this weekend at 87* ambient I saw 120* fuel temps at 50 base. Recently installed a flex fuel sensor and never had fuel temp data before. No idea if that’s “normal”. Seems high to me…
Anyway it’s a giant cluster and a poor design IMO. Stay away from it if you want great performance at reasonable cost. Cruising about 45 mins this weekend at 87* ambient I saw 120* fuel temps at 50 base. Recently installed a flex fuel sensor and never had fuel temp data before. No idea if that’s “normal”. Seems high to me…
I've had the 12-1800 pump on my car since day 1. Run both sides all the time. E85.
Hour drives to and from the track down south several times.
Never an issue.
I was over 100% idc pushing the ID1000's. I saw 80 psi at 20 lbs boost. 60 base.
I don't see anything odd in my VE table that would indicate I'm starving for fuel.
No clue on hp, whatever it takes to go 150 in a 3400lb car.
I recently added a 12-890 in parallel on a Hobbs switch. And changed to ID1300's.
I'll know in the coming weeks how it all does when I turn the boost up to the mid 20's.
I didn't really consider putting the second pump in series.
Hour drives to and from the track down south several times.
Never an issue.
I was over 100% idc pushing the ID1000's. I saw 80 psi at 20 lbs boost. 60 base.
I don't see anything odd in my VE table that would indicate I'm starving for fuel.
No clue on hp, whatever it takes to go 150 in a 3400lb car.
I recently added a 12-890 in parallel on a Hobbs switch. And changed to ID1300's.
I'll know in the coming weeks how it all does when I turn the boost up to the mid 20's.
I didn't really consider putting the second pump in series.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 8,478
Likes: 1,022
From: Wichita, KS
Think the “Crusty Nova” Was running one forever at pretty huge power levels and relatively low pressures. A lot more bad experiences than good though. I just don’t see the performance VS cost appeal.
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=486066
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=486066
I read that whole thread as it was happening.
I highly doubt there have been more failures than successes.
People don't tend to start posts about how much they like a product.
I highly doubt there have been more failures than successes.
People don't tend to start posts about how much they like a product.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 8,478
Likes: 1,022
From: Wichita, KS
I get your point to a certain extent… but the small crowd pushing fuel systems hard in this specific application are the ones I pay the most attention to. Out of the several in this small group that tried it, many had issues with that pump specifically.
Seems like a poor design by nature to me. 2 glorified 255/340 intank pumps crammed in a small container that retains a lot of heat using a single feed…
Seems like a poor design by nature to me. 2 glorified 255/340 intank pumps crammed in a small container that retains a lot of heat using a single feed…
You’re 1300’s should be more than enough for those power levels. I’d guess the pressure is falling on the pump and DC is rising to compensate? Do you log pressure?
I wasn’t sure how much boost you plan on running. General rule of thumb is keep the total pressure under 100. I know mechanical pump guys that run over 100 without issue as well… But it’s not recommended by most injector manufacturers.
IMO that series of Holley pump is crap. They don’t put out near their rated power levels, aren’t compatible with ethanol or pump gas, and the pumps capabilities/specs change on a monthly basis. They even go as far as to say it’s not a pump for a street use. The failure rate is also extremely high, though some have had good luck with them.
They use to basically be 2 255 or 2 340 in-tank pumps in a fancy case and they don’t’ cool properly in that case. They have an internal bypass and flow poorly at higher pressures as well. If I remember right its around 80psi? (might double check that.) But the flow rate at even 60-70psi drops like a rock. Anyway, last I checked the Holley pump setup won’t handle the higher pressures well at all.
With the 3rd pump in series you’ll be able to make lots of pressure and the Holley will supply a lower pressure feed to the booster pump. Should work wel. Personally I’d sell that Holley pump and run 2 AEM380’s or 3 GSL392 HP walbros. Both would be capable of more flow at higher pressures for less $. Reliability on the AEM380 is still questionable IMO. They haven’t been out long enough to get a good feel yet. I’ll say mine makes odd noises at random intervals, and it might have 10 hours on it so far.
I wasn’t sure how much boost you plan on running. General rule of thumb is keep the total pressure under 100. I know mechanical pump guys that run over 100 without issue as well… But it’s not recommended by most injector manufacturers.
IMO that series of Holley pump is crap. They don’t put out near their rated power levels, aren’t compatible with ethanol or pump gas, and the pumps capabilities/specs change on a monthly basis. They even go as far as to say it’s not a pump for a street use. The failure rate is also extremely high, though some have had good luck with them.
They use to basically be 2 255 or 2 340 in-tank pumps in a fancy case and they don’t’ cool properly in that case. They have an internal bypass and flow poorly at higher pressures as well. If I remember right its around 80psi? (might double check that.) But the flow rate at even 60-70psi drops like a rock. Anyway, last I checked the Holley pump setup won’t handle the higher pressures well at all.
With the 3rd pump in series you’ll be able to make lots of pressure and the Holley will supply a lower pressure feed to the booster pump. Should work wel. Personally I’d sell that Holley pump and run 2 AEM380’s or 3 GSL392 HP walbros. Both would be capable of more flow at higher pressures for less $. Reliability on the AEM380 is still questionable IMO. They haven’t been out long enough to get a good feel yet. I’ll say mine makes odd noises at random intervals, and it might have 10 hours on it so far.
Stock ecu so I'm not logging fuel pressure currently. I don't plan to run anymore then 20psi probably 16-18psi should put me in the 900whp range.
I was thinking just add a damn methanol kit to stretch my fuel system a little bit further or just bump fuel pressure a little and see where it gets me.
Once the season is over I can sell my Holley pump and go with one of these intank set ups with Twin 450's. Should those pumps support 1000whp with my FID1000's WOTHOUT the methanol kit?
http://rickstanks.com/products/in-ta...-kits/bolt-in/
I BET A SURGE TANK WOULD BE A TON CHEAPER
Surprised you guys haven't heard of FID which is fuel injector development. I know tons of guys running them my tuner was really impressed with drivability.
There's several guys making close to 1k to the tire with the Holley pump, check this guy out same injector size but he is running 60 base instead of 50 like me.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/fueling-i...12-1800-a.html
There's several guys making close to 1k to the tire with the Holley pump, check this guy out same injector size but he is running 60 base instead of 50 like me.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/fueling-i...12-1800-a.html
The holley pumps are almost done around 850 rwhp on e85. My buddy took his apart and they are straight up walbro 255 pumps lol, even still marked walbro. They will make more than that but you need big injectors that can be ran around 42 psi of fuel pressure after your boost.
Stock ecu so I'm not logging fuel pressure currently. I don't plan to run anymore then 20psi probably 16-18psi should put me in the 900whp range.
I was thinking just add a damn methanol kit to stretch my fuel system a little bit further or just bump fuel pressure a little and see where it gets me.
Once the season is over I can sell my Holley pump and go with one of these intank set ups with Twin 450's. Should those pumps support 1000whp with my FID1000's WOTHOUT the methanol kit?
http://rickstanks.com/products/in-ta...-kits/bolt-in/
I BET A SURGE TANK WOULD BE A TON CHEAPER
I was thinking just add a damn methanol kit to stretch my fuel system a little bit further or just bump fuel pressure a little and see where it gets me.
Once the season is over I can sell my Holley pump and go with one of these intank set ups with Twin 450's. Should those pumps support 1000whp with my FID1000's WOTHOUT the methanol kit?
http://rickstanks.com/products/in-ta...-kits/bolt-in/
I BET A SURGE TANK WOULD BE A TON CHEAPER
Launching!
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Emailed quantum today and they said they will send out my replacement today. All they asked is I cover a $6 shipping charge.
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All testing is done with e85 measured out at ~e80. I will be calculating the density of it in our chemistry lab so i can provide you guys with volumetric AND mass flow rates versus pressure.
Injectors have nothing to do with these tests.
After I finish this writeup, I am going to run the test with my in-tank Walbro pumps I currently have but that will come later once the car is running again, so that will be added to the original writeup like 6-8 months from now. I have a 450 and 255 sitting in the tank in the car. I had planned on running a 044 knockoff in front of each one of them as a test as well. I don't think 2 of these inline in front of a single Walbro would provide much benefit or make sense. 3 inline pumps would be a lot of current draw and restriction in 1 line.
Injectors have nothing to do with these tests.
After I finish this writeup, I am going to run the test with my in-tank Walbro pumps I currently have but that will come later once the car is running again, so that will be added to the original writeup like 6-8 months from now. I have a 450 and 255 sitting in the tank in the car. I had planned on running a 044 knockoff in front of each one of them as a test as well. I don't think 2 of these inline in front of a single Walbro would provide much benefit or make sense. 3 inline pumps would be a lot of current draw and restriction in 1 line.
EDIT: I guess after thinking about it more, I will undoubtedly need a higher flow pump in the tank no matter what. The stocker even at effectively no pumping pressure probably just won't supply the needed volume to the inline 044 without a surge tank to buffer it or something..
But I'm still very curious to know about the testing results!
Last edited by Tjabo; Apr 11, 2018 at 11:52 AM.