Why no inline "booster" pumps?
TECH Resident
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 793
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
So which China fuel pumps were we focusing on at the beginning of this thread?
Was it something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Univers...UAAOSwiDFYL6rR
Was it something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Univers...UAAOSwiDFYL6rR
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 8,482
Likes: 1,026
From: Wichita, KS
Yup the $23 044 clones.
Original theory was to run 4 pumps. basically 2 pumps in series for each fuel rail. I was curious what a set in series would flow at say 100-120psi. Then use a cheap automotive clone FPR on each rail for it's own return. these are "blow through" style pumps so the "booster pumps" wouldn't come on until you were in boost. But that still left you running 2 cheap pumps at continuous duty cycle. Possibly not the best idea. TEchnically you could have "real" 044s as constant duty and use the knock offs as boosters only... but I felt there was a better way.
Later my theory was to have a 2 or 3 parallel pump setup on standby as my my "In boost monster pump" with these $23 044 clones. Then use a single reliable constant duty pump for quiet cruising. I figure if I only used these cheap pumps "in boost" they would last a very long time. And 3 of them coupled with a cheap 3-way air hose fitting should flow bucket loads of fuel for less than $100 investment. More fuel than these $1600+ pumps people keep buying. UNfortunatly we never got he testing done. I've read these generally pump about 45gph at 70psi which isn't great. About half of an AEM 380.
Still I think 2 AEM 380's in parallel with a constant duty 255 walbro or something reliable and cheapish would basically outperform most of the big dollar pumps out there by a healthy margin. Also have to consider a healthy 15a per pump, so that draw could spike to something kinda crazy on initial startup. Still manageable IMO.
Original theory was to run 4 pumps. basically 2 pumps in series for each fuel rail. I was curious what a set in series would flow at say 100-120psi. Then use a cheap automotive clone FPR on each rail for it's own return. these are "blow through" style pumps so the "booster pumps" wouldn't come on until you were in boost. But that still left you running 2 cheap pumps at continuous duty cycle. Possibly not the best idea. TEchnically you could have "real" 044s as constant duty and use the knock offs as boosters only... but I felt there was a better way.
Later my theory was to have a 2 or 3 parallel pump setup on standby as my my "In boost monster pump" with these $23 044 clones. Then use a single reliable constant duty pump for quiet cruising. I figure if I only used these cheap pumps "in boost" they would last a very long time. And 3 of them coupled with a cheap 3-way air hose fitting should flow bucket loads of fuel for less than $100 investment. More fuel than these $1600+ pumps people keep buying. UNfortunatly we never got he testing done. I've read these generally pump about 45gph at 70psi which isn't great. About half of an AEM 380.
Still I think 2 AEM 380's in parallel with a constant duty 255 walbro or something reliable and cheapish would basically outperform most of the big dollar pumps out there by a healthy margin. Also have to consider a healthy 15a per pump, so that draw could spike to something kinda crazy on initial startup. Still manageable IMO.
Last edited by Forcefed86; Jul 2, 2020 at 10:12 AM.
TECH Resident
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 793
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
Those are great ideas! Kenny Dangler was running a pair of AEM 380s through dual 1/2" lines to something like 153 in the 1/8th on E85, so they can definitely do a lot of work.
If the bench testing dude has fallen off the grid, I'm thinking that it might be fun to just jump straight to in-car testing, using AFR and injector duty cycle as the real world results/data. I'm not concerned about pump reliability or anything, since the MS3 AFR Safety system seems to cover my *** real well.
My E36 drift shitbox has run 143 in the quarter without a good launch, powered by a JY 4.8, Walbro 525 in the tank, and a pair of $129 "GT35s" in the trunk with the radiator. I'm about out of fuel pump though on E85, and I have to keep the tank real full to avoid slosh trouble. So if my little front mount radiator I made out of an $85 dual pass intercooler actually works, I will delete the big radiator from the trunk, and open up a bunch of space for a surge tank and fuel pumps.
Because people make surprising amounts of power on 5/16" factory fuel lines, I would like to see what I could squeeze out of my single 1/2" hardline setup. Seems like maybe it should be a lot, with enough pump(s) behind it.
If the bench testing dude has fallen off the grid, I'm thinking that it might be fun to just jump straight to in-car testing, using AFR and injector duty cycle as the real world results/data. I'm not concerned about pump reliability or anything, since the MS3 AFR Safety system seems to cover my *** real well.
My E36 drift shitbox has run 143 in the quarter without a good launch, powered by a JY 4.8, Walbro 525 in the tank, and a pair of $129 "GT35s" in the trunk with the radiator. I'm about out of fuel pump though on E85, and I have to keep the tank real full to avoid slosh trouble. So if my little front mount radiator I made out of an $85 dual pass intercooler actually works, I will delete the big radiator from the trunk, and open up a bunch of space for a surge tank and fuel pumps.
Because people make surprising amounts of power on 5/16" factory fuel lines, I would like to see what I could squeeze out of my single 1/2" hardline setup. Seems like maybe it should be a lot, with enough pump(s) behind it.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 8,482
Likes: 1,026
From: Wichita, KS
Def fun to speculate. This fella was trapping 177 I believe at 3200lbs or so. and later went 181. That's more power than I've ever seen out of 2 AEM 380's on E85. No meth either. He ran 2 -10 feeds and 2 -8 supplies all the way to the rail. Single regulator and -6 return. Also of note he later removed the check valves in the pump and his INJ DC dropped 15%. SO pumps weren't out of steam yet. That's over 1400 crank. (43psi base and around 70 max psi)
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...rk-needed.html
Another bud was "running out of pump" around 160 with 2 AEM 380s setup with a "Y" configuration and single line at the outlets. So plumbing seems to have a MAJOR effect.
My AEM 380 setup is about as bad as you can get. I have the pump in a surge tank and the regulator at teh surge tank as well in teh trunk. Then a single -8 to the factory rails. I run out of pump around 500whp as 12 psi on my 5.3. I have since removed the check valve and installed a boost a pump. And am able to run 19psi. DC is maxed now.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...rk-needed.html
Another bud was "running out of pump" around 160 with 2 AEM 380s setup with a "Y" configuration and single line at the outlets. So plumbing seems to have a MAJOR effect.
My AEM 380 setup is about as bad as you can get. I have the pump in a surge tank and the regulator at teh surge tank as well in teh trunk. Then a single -8 to the factory rails. I run out of pump around 500whp as 12 psi on my 5.3. I have since removed the check valve and installed a boost a pump. And am able to run 19psi. DC is maxed now.
TECH Resident
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 793
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
It definitely is fun to speculate on things like this!
So far this year I've been working too much to get my car running with this year's revisions to the entirely pie-cut hotside of the exhaust, and the new radiator setup, etc. Once I do though, and find out that the rear-mount radiator can vacate the trunk area, I will start planning to do some silly setups with cheap fuel pumps. Sounds like a fun experiment for the summer/fall.
So far this year I've been working too much to get my car running with this year's revisions to the entirely pie-cut hotside of the exhaust, and the new radiator setup, etc. Once I do though, and find out that the rear-mount radiator can vacate the trunk area, I will start planning to do some silly setups with cheap fuel pumps. Sounds like a fun experiment for the summer/fall.
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9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
Yup the $23 044 clones.
Original theory was to run 4 pumps. basically 2 pumps in series for each fuel rail. I was curious what a set in series would flow at say 100-120psi. Then use a cheap automotive clone FPR on each rail for it's own return. these are "blow through" style pumps so the "booster pumps" wouldn't come on until you were in boost. But that still left you running 2 cheap pumps at continuous duty cycle. Possibly not the best idea. TEchnically you could have "real" 044s as constant duty and use the knock offs as boosters only... but I felt there was a better way.
Later my theory was to have a 2 or 3 parallel pump setup on standby as my my "In boost monster pump" with these $23 044 clones. Then use a single reliable constant duty pump for quiet cruising. I figure if I only used these cheap pumps "in boost" they would last a very long time. And 3 of them coupled with a cheap 3-way air hose fitting should flow bucket loads of fuel for less than $100 investment. More fuel than these $1600+ pumps people keep buying. UNfortunatly we never got he testing done. I've read these generally pump about 45gph at 70psi which isn't great. About half of an AEM 380.
Still I think 2 AEM 380's in parallel with a constant duty 255 walbro or something reliable and cheapish would basically outperform most of the big dollar pumps out there by a healthy margin. Also have to consider a healthy 15a per pump, so that draw could spike to something kinda crazy on initial startup. Still manageable IMO.
Original theory was to run 4 pumps. basically 2 pumps in series for each fuel rail. I was curious what a set in series would flow at say 100-120psi. Then use a cheap automotive clone FPR on each rail for it's own return. these are "blow through" style pumps so the "booster pumps" wouldn't come on until you were in boost. But that still left you running 2 cheap pumps at continuous duty cycle. Possibly not the best idea. TEchnically you could have "real" 044s as constant duty and use the knock offs as boosters only... but I felt there was a better way.
Later my theory was to have a 2 or 3 parallel pump setup on standby as my my "In boost monster pump" with these $23 044 clones. Then use a single reliable constant duty pump for quiet cruising. I figure if I only used these cheap pumps "in boost" they would last a very long time. And 3 of them coupled with a cheap 3-way air hose fitting should flow bucket loads of fuel for less than $100 investment. More fuel than these $1600+ pumps people keep buying. UNfortunatly we never got he testing done. I've read these generally pump about 45gph at 70psi which isn't great. About half of an AEM 380.
Still I think 2 AEM 380's in parallel with a constant duty 255 walbro or something reliable and cheapish would basically outperform most of the big dollar pumps out there by a healthy margin. Also have to consider a healthy 15a per pump, so that draw could spike to something kinda crazy on initial startup. Still manageable IMO.
4 pumps when only 2 are needed ? seems a bit crazy and messy way to achieve something that doesnt need to be achieved. The only reason you'd ever want to do a setup like that, is if you needed extremely high pressures at the rails.
TECH Resident
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 793
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From: Michigan
Since I will be running a surge tank outside of the main fuel tank if/when I play around with some of this stuff, what would everyone think about running some small amount of pressure in the surge tank? I could put a pressure regulator on the overflow line back to the main tank, to maintain a certain small amount of pressure in the surge tank. Currently I have a Walbro 525 in the main tank, that I could leave in there as the supply to the surge tank. That setup should be able to supply a LOT of fuel through a decent sized SHORT feed line to the surge tank.
If that idea worked, then a pair of cheap inline pumps would be multiplying the pressure ratio coming out of the surge tank, potentially jacking up their flows at pressure by a significant amount. Thoughts?
Oh, just to be clear, my return line from the rails would feed back into the surge tank, so the function of the pressure in the surge tank would effect the operation of the regulator at the rails...
If that idea worked, then a pair of cheap inline pumps would be multiplying the pressure ratio coming out of the surge tank, potentially jacking up their flows at pressure by a significant amount. Thoughts?
Oh, just to be clear, my return line from the rails would feed back into the surge tank, so the function of the pressure in the surge tank would effect the operation of the regulator at the rails...
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 8,482
Likes: 1,026
From: Wichita, KS
Well at the time we didnt know what the 23$ clones really flowed. If they flowed the advertised 300lph, it would have been a different story. And yes... then original plan was to run "excessive" fuel pressures to carry the typical small injectors farther. Like decapped stock injs. 044 style pumps do really well with pressure andbdont fall off
Last edited by Forcefed86; Jul 6, 2020 at 01:35 PM.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
It's a very common use. Not much to think about. It works.
Whether the surge tank is under pressure depends on the amount of flow into and out of it, although flow in should always exceed flow out, otherwise it will be emptying.
But in doing so, when done right it makes for an almost foolproof fuel system in terms of maintaining good supply to the engine even if the main tank setup is less than ideal.
TECH Resident
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 793
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
Well, that is interesting!
I guess the conversation might be about what we mean when we say that the surge tank is under pressure. If the overflow line is out of the top of the tank, and the overflow line isn't massive, there would tend to be a minor pressure in the tank as you say.
What I'm thinking of is using an actual pressure regulator on the return line from the surge tank to the main tank, such that a more significant pressure could be maintained in the surge tank to help the inline pumps, but not enough to approach a pressure that would tax the volume flow capacity of the Walbro 525 at low pressure. Like maybe 2 bar or something? 1.5 bar?
I guess the conversation might be about what we mean when we say that the surge tank is under pressure. If the overflow line is out of the top of the tank, and the overflow line isn't massive, there would tend to be a minor pressure in the tank as you say.
What I'm thinking of is using an actual pressure regulator on the return line from the surge tank to the main tank, such that a more significant pressure could be maintained in the surge tank to help the inline pumps, but not enough to approach a pressure that would tax the volume flow capacity of the Walbro 525 at low pressure. Like maybe 2 bar or something? 1.5 bar?
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
Well, that is interesting!
I guess the conversation might be about what we mean when we say that the surge tank is under pressure. If the overflow line is out of the top of the tank, and the overflow line isn't massive, there would tend to be a minor pressure in the tank as you say.
What I'm thinking of is using an actual pressure regulator on the return line from the surge tank to the main tank, such that a more significant pressure could be maintained in the surge tank to help the inline pumps, but not enough to approach a pressure that would tax the volume flow capacity of the Walbro 525 at low pressure. Like maybe 2 bar or something? 1.5 bar?
I guess the conversation might be about what we mean when we say that the surge tank is under pressure. If the overflow line is out of the top of the tank, and the overflow line isn't massive, there would tend to be a minor pressure in the tank as you say.
What I'm thinking of is using an actual pressure regulator on the return line from the surge tank to the main tank, such that a more significant pressure could be maintained in the surge tank to help the inline pumps, but not enough to approach a pressure that would tax the volume flow capacity of the Walbro 525 at low pressure. Like maybe 2 bar or something? 1.5 bar?
If you have enough flow into the tank, then yes that would be possible...and make sure you build that tank to handle those pressures.
But really...the main pumps do not really need a lot of assistance unless you're trying to boost pressure, which is rare, and a lot of injectors do not like excessive pressures anyway.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 8,482
Likes: 1,026
From: Wichita, KS
Not designed to have a feed pressure, but I don't see why you couldn't re-purpose it. You'd just need to make sure your surge tank supply pump has enough flow to keep it totally full. Which semi defeats the purpose. Going by the crazy numbers we've seen put up by 2 AEM380's when plumbed independently on E85... I'd almost argue the need for a "better cheap" fuel system. How much power do you really need?
As for pump reliability, that was in the air. As no one really knows. The "real" bosch 044 is among one of the most reliable pumps out there. So who knows if the cheap pumps are worth a snot or not. If the pumps were only run while in boost... I'd think pump life wouldn't really be an issue. That "fiddler" guy with the twin turbo AMC is the only car I know of that has run them. They seemed to perform well.
Has flow results on post 61 I believe.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...ing-twins.html
As for pump reliability, that was in the air. As no one really knows. The "real" bosch 044 is among one of the most reliable pumps out there. So who knows if the cheap pumps are worth a snot or not. If the pumps were only run while in boost... I'd think pump life wouldn't really be an issue. That "fiddler" guy with the twin turbo AMC is the only car I know of that has run them. They seemed to perform well.
Has flow results on post 61 I believe.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...ing-twins.html