E85...C85...other fuels ?
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From: Norn Iron
E85...C85...other fuels ? Seen this video and a few of theirs recently.
Worthy of discussion ?
C85 seems to win, although not sure what the makeup of that fuel is vs basic E85 ? They also seem to suggesting there isnt much gains vs say E50 ?
But even at that it seems to outperform some race fuels.
Worthy of discussion ?
C85 seems to win, although not sure what the makeup of that fuel is vs basic E85 ? They also seem to suggesting there isnt much gains vs say E50 ?
But even at that it seems to outperform some race fuels.
In the comments it says there are decent temperature swigs and IAT differences between the 2 runs that could account for the added power with the "C40".
Getting rid of all the variables in back to back testing is super hard. I don't consider a few hp gain like that noteworthy. I've seen back to back dyno runs (with no changes) spit out numbers that vary more than that.
Getting rid of all the variables in back to back testing is super hard. I don't consider a few hp gain like that noteworthy. I've seen back to back dyno runs (with no changes) spit out numbers that vary more than that.
E85 is too readily available here for me to consider anything else. It's even more readily available than 91 or 93 octane E10 around here. The pumps I've found are rated at a minimum of E70.
I’ve seen e40-e50 out of “E70 minimum” pumps. Which isn’t a big deal as far as knock control/detonation IMO. But it does change the tune quite a bit which is a pain if you don’t have an ethanol sensor hooked up to your ECU with a variable “tune on the fly” option. I have this now on one of my cars and it’s pretty slick! It’s a pain in the race car if I tune on E85-90 then get a batch of e60-70.
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From: PDX-OR-USA
Best investment you can make is a fuel hydrometer.. Or at least learn how to test the fuel for the Alcohol content with the shaker vial. The advantage the VP fuels(Most race fuels in general) have is they are carefully mixed, small batch fuels, and don't have the ANTI voc agents in them so the fuel just vaporizes better, thus burning "better".
Mixing VP (Or any race gas) with street fuel is basically lighting money on fire in the parking lot (IMHO) I worked with real fuel chemists from a big supplier one summer and they showed me that the additives in race gas vs street gas are only about 80% compatible.. The edge the Ethanol has is that its Ethanol, and very measurable.. But Race+Street can end up lowering the octane..
You also really want to do your research on the VP fuels, they make some that are really really track only special fuel that will raise havoc if used in the wrong type of engine..
They used to make some "cheater" fuels that road racers found out would really give you a crap-ton more power.. But they were seriously toxic smelling and if you got behind someone running it it was awful...
Mixing VP (Or any race gas) with street fuel is basically lighting money on fire in the parking lot (IMHO) I worked with real fuel chemists from a big supplier one summer and they showed me that the additives in race gas vs street gas are only about 80% compatible.. The edge the Ethanol has is that its Ethanol, and very measurable.. But Race+Street can end up lowering the octane..
You also really want to do your research on the VP fuels, they make some that are really really track only special fuel that will raise havoc if used in the wrong type of engine..
They used to make some "cheater" fuels that road racers found out would really give you a crap-ton more power.. But they were seriously toxic smelling and if you got behind someone running it it was awful...
Last edited by pdxmotorhead; Jul 5, 2017 at 05:17 PM.
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Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Norn Iron
Odd that even a race E85...ie C85, only reports back as around 70% though ? ( I've seen a guy on another forum test a few drums of C85 he bought, as he thought something was wrong with the fuel as none where anywhere near 85% )
And those guys seem to say even at say 50/50...there isnt really any more power to be had with a higher ethanol content ?
And those guys seem to say even at say 50/50...there isnt really any more power to be had with a higher ethanol content ?
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From: PDX-OR-USA
The other stuff they dump in will sometimes mask the ethanol content.. There is some seriously scary organic chemistry going on in the blending of fuels..
I know that on normally aspirated sprint cars, running methanol, your compression has to be crazy high to get all the power out of the Methanol.. On a Cosworth twin cam midget we only had like 13CC chambers,, and 15.5:1 compression.. (hazy on the exact numbers but the valves and pistons were VERY cozy with each other in that motor.. )300HP/350Ft lbs out of a 1.5 liter engine,, 8500+ rpms for 20 minutes at a time on track and we still couldn't hardly heat the block up.. We'd pre-heat the engine in the pits and it would come off track cold.. And we were the lowest power car on track in our class.
I know that on normally aspirated sprint cars, running methanol, your compression has to be crazy high to get all the power out of the Methanol.. On a Cosworth twin cam midget we only had like 13CC chambers,, and 15.5:1 compression.. (hazy on the exact numbers but the valves and pistons were VERY cozy with each other in that motor.. )300HP/350Ft lbs out of a 1.5 liter engine,, 8500+ rpms for 20 minutes at a time on track and we still couldn't hardly heat the block up.. We'd pre-heat the engine in the pits and it would come off track cold.. And we were the lowest power car on track in our class.
You can test ethanol content several ways and it rates differently comparing volume or weight %. C85 is probably just E98 blended with one of vp's race fuels where pump E85 is E98 blended with crap low octane fuel.
Odd that even a race E85...ie C85, only reports back as around 70% though ? ( I've seen a guy on another forum test a few drums of C85 he bought, as he thought something was wrong with the fuel as none where anywhere near 85% )
And those guys seem to say even at say 50/50...there isnt really any more power to be had with a higher ethanol content ?
And those guys seem to say even at say 50/50...there isnt really any more power to be had with a higher ethanol content ?
I've used some E98 before when I had some pump E85 in the tank and it came out to 83%.
Haven't had a chance to use either soley by themselves yet.
The amount of ethanol varies in E85 for 2 reasons. Ethanol in colder weather makes the engine more difficult to start so they lower the ethanol content during the colder seasons. 2nd reason is that the ethanol truck manually mixes the gas in the station e85 tank and they arent always consistent. I've had ethanol contents range from 70% to 93% from the same station. Richer isnt bad but the other direction can cause you to run lean. I'm always making sure its in spec of my tune before hammering it
^I saw the same thing back in NY. Used the same 3 stations near my old home and even with filling at the same station I noted from E67-E90 for "E85." I had a ProEfi 128 which has the analyzer built into the system. The display would provide the exact alcohol content on the screen when filling.
I do agree that flex fuel was awesome as it made the adjustment on the fly based on the alcohol content. No testing and adjusting the tune just fill up and she would adjust based on the EFI algorithms and the tuners touch.
I do agree that flex fuel was awesome as it made the adjustment on the fly based on the alcohol content. No testing and adjusting the tune just fill up and she would adjust based on the EFI algorithms and the tuners touch.
Haha guess there is some type of difference in opinion about the Ethanol Analyzers? Well regardless the guy that did my tune also does some of the best tuning for the Supra community so I basically handed the thing over and told him to work his magic. I cant begin to pretend to understand tuning as I have never really spent time on it....and wasnt going to try with the complexities of the Pro Efi unit. But every single tune he has completed using the Efi system on flex fuel has had no issues to my knowledge so it and he are doing something right.
Last edited by 2muchboostNY; Jul 7, 2017 at 10:38 AM.
The analyzers work well for what they are but they are flawed. Throw a little water in the mix and the ethanol% readings change. Theres a bunch of YouTube vids on it.
IMO though they are pretty accurate. I don’t plan on having massive amounts of water in my fuel system and as long as I know I have 50% ethanol and above I’m pretty happy. It’s nice to just fill up on your ehtnaol blend at the pumps and go. I don’t want to worry about blending my own fuel and getting the mixture perfect every time.
I can fill up on 5 gallons of ethanol free 91 octane one day. Then 2 days later fill up on 7 gallons of e85 without touching the tune. It’s pretty handy for a $20 sensor.
If I had a dedicated race toy I was really pushing mixing my own wouldn't be a big deal. They just started carrying E98 at our local pump in KS. You can't put it directly in your fuel tank, but you can fill up jugs of it. Mixing that with 91 would make a great race fuel IMO.
IMO though they are pretty accurate. I don’t plan on having massive amounts of water in my fuel system and as long as I know I have 50% ethanol and above I’m pretty happy. It’s nice to just fill up on your ehtnaol blend at the pumps and go. I don’t want to worry about blending my own fuel and getting the mixture perfect every time.
I can fill up on 5 gallons of ethanol free 91 octane one day. Then 2 days later fill up on 7 gallons of e85 without touching the tune. It’s pretty handy for a $20 sensor.
If I had a dedicated race toy I was really pushing mixing my own wouldn't be a big deal. They just started carrying E98 at our local pump in KS. You can't put it directly in your fuel tank, but you can fill up jugs of it. Mixing that with 91 would make a great race fuel IMO.
@Force...thanks for the explanation. We did note fuel systems being hygroscopic while using E85 but typically not enough to be of concern. I dont know anyone that left E85 sitting in their system for too long but there were posts a while ago about moisture in peoples systems if the E85 sat in the system for a prolonged period of time.
@Detoxx....man your car is a GEM!
@Detoxx....man your car is a GEM!