mightyquickz28

iTrader: (8)

Hi Guys,

I realize you might question putting this in the forced induction section but since he has a turbo and we all know we're cramming a lot of hot piping in places where it wasn't intended, I wondered if you might have encountered such an issue in your applications/experiences.

This is a buddy of mines 2011 ss. He had Vengence Racing build his 416 cubed motor. Later on, seeing my 4th Gen turbo success, he bought an On3 kit with the 84mm. For the first 5000 miles after the turbo install, everything was normal regarding cold/hot starts. But around that 5,000 mile mark, it would occasionally really labor to start when fully warmed up(going to the gas station, etc) but this was once a week. Then it started being a couple of times a week, and finally, as it is today. Won't crank/rotate but about once or twice before giving up. Not only that, but now cold starts were even sluggish. Steve went down the usual suspects.

• Pulled all battery connectors and wirebrushed them. - no improvement
• New battery - No improvement
• New starter - no improvement
• 1,000 cranking amp battery - no improvement
• Just for grins, put a 2nd fully charged battery jumper cabled to the stock battery. Mild improvement on cold start but no help on hot start.
• Installed (at my insistence since I was sure this would fix it) a Ford Remote solenoid and 1/0 cables from starter to solenoid to battery - no freaking improvement.

Being that it's gotten progressively worse and now even affects cold starts, I think it's a compromised wire somewhere but where it could be is a mystery so far.

We are at the point where we think we'll have to pull the engine out and trace/inspect all the wiring to/from the starter.

Have any of you got any further ideas?
Thanks,
Dave

Bad Apache

Start off with the basics. Grab a good multimeter and do some voltage checks while cranking/attempting to crank. Check the battery voltage first. Then the battery cable at the starter. Then do voltage drop tests between the starter case and battery negative anode. Between the negative battery anode and chassis. Between the negative battery anode and engine block. And between the positive anode and starter battery stud. One of these should shed some light.

Bad Apache

One other thing. Did you guys crank the engine by hand to make sure it turns over freely?

mightyquickz28

iTrader: (8)

Thanks for the quick response.
We did do a voltage check. Steve was out in the engine compartment with the voltage gauge/multimeter. When I did key on but not cranking, it was 12.xx volts, but when I cranked it, it dropped to 8 volts.

I'll go thru the other voltage tests you mention tomorrow.

One other thing I tried that I didn't mention but I found peculiar...

• Took off the 1/0 cable that went from the battery post to the Ford Remote solenoid, but left all other connections to that post.
• Got in the car, pressed the clutch and turn the key to start position. I hoped to watch the in-cab volt meter to see if it dipped(ie: looking for a short in the harness). What surprised me is as soon as I did that, it was like pressing the reboot button on a laptop. All the dash and console lights went off, then came back on and the instruments needles swept like they do when you first turn on the key. I tried it a couple of times looking for some clue but it was repeatable. I wondered, "Does the PCM, via the crank/cam sensors, know the motor isn't spinning and re-cycles the ignition process?"
  

Steve had wondered about some physical resistance too so he pulled out the plugs and spun it and didn't notice any impediments.

Project GatTagO

iTrader: (7)

I'd look for a short somewhere in the wiring that gets power to the computer. It can also be a bad ignition switch!

Andrew

MY_2K_Z

iTrader: (1)

Replace the starter. Sounds just like my car, I ran new grounds, replaced the battery, did all kinds of stuff. Finally I replaced the starter and boom no more hot start problems.

mightyquickz28

iTrader: (8)

Good morning. Yes, he's replaced the starter twice but with stock style from Advanced Auto or Autozone. I read a lot of stories about this online and it's one of two things...

• The solutions are what we've already tried, to no avail(cleaning connections, replace battery(we did twice), replace starter(we did twice), use remote starter solenoid, replace battery cables with 1/0 gauge.
• (and this is the most frustrating to me) Someone will pose the question/symptoms just like I did, there's a flurry of responses but the OP never comes back and says "Found it! It turned out we had to do <X, Y, Z> to fix it!". You're left to wonder, "Did they never get it fixed and it's out in the yard with a tree growing thru the engine bay?" or "Are they too lazy to come back and say they got it fixed?" or ???

mightyquickz28

iTrader: (8)

Yes, I think that's what we're left with at the end of the day. We'll have to pull things apart, test voltages/resistance until we find it.

Old Geezer

iTrader: (3)

"it was 12.xx volts, but when I cranked it, it dropped to 8 volts."
Battery been moved?
How is the engine grounded to the battery? Thru a direct cable, via the chassis?
Have any redundant grounds been added?
Try a jumper cable from the starter body, directly to the batt neg.
Also, do a volt drop test across the remote sol sw.

blown6.0L

iTrader: (7)

this is exactly what I was thinking. I had the same issue. Replaced the starter and the issue got better but it didn't completely solve it. Ran an additional ground and boom. Problem solved. I have my battery in the trunk though. Where is the batter located and where are your grounds ran

mightyquickz28

iTrader: (8)

Steves SS came from the factory with the battery in the trunk so we haven't moved it. Whatever the stock configuration is as far as the chassis/engine to negative battery post is what is in place. I did try some jumper cables from the negative battery post directly to the engine but that didn't help. We'll try the jumper cable directly to the starter body tonight.

Thanks for the tips guys. Its appreciated! I'll definitely post what we find when we uncover it.

Bad Apache

12v to 8v is totally unacceptable. Take the starter out and try to jump it directly with jumper cables. Yes it is a hair-raising experience, lol. Maybe do it with the starter in a vice. If the starter draw is very high, it will pull voltage down during cranking. That will eliminate the starter. Yes the aftermarket ones are poop these days. Don't get me started. You have a large voltage drop to the starter or a high current draw. Both of which are made better by jumping a second battery to the first, like you did. You're on the right track. I'll check back when I can, customers cars to fix now.

RealQuick

iTrader: (14)

e38 pcm might be taking a dump

Search google for 2010 camaro SS ECM issue. There is some history behind it.

jordoza777

iTrader: (2)

5th gen camaro uses the frame or body as the ground path for the battery. It has a short cable between the pass side front head and the abs module bracket it can get high resistantance at the abs module bracket easily due to the bracket being painted before the cable was attached. Every 5th gen I've seen or worked on is this way. Second the negative between the battery and the frame attaches either below the rear seat or under the trunk carpeting depending on the year. The connection under the trunk carpeting can get corrosion easily if moisture has been allowed to sit in the trunk carpeting. I'd check these two very common areas for a bad connection. I had issues with the abs bracket on mine. Mine would drag during cranking hot or cold but worse hot. Cleaned the paint of the abs bracket and it cranked like crazy.

mightyquickz28

iTrader: (8)

Thanks guys! I'll check those out as well tonight!

Game ova

Has the battery been relocated to the trunk? If so, my money is on that being the issue.

RealQuick

iTrader: (14)

battery is in the trunk from the factory

Game ova

Oops.... guess I lost my money lol. I only mentioned it because sometimes when I battery is relocated to the trunk....issues can arise. Didn't know those cars were that way from the factory.

mightyquickz28

iTrader: (8)

No worries. I was surprised to find that out too.

mightyquickz28

iTrader: (8)

When this first started being a consistent problem, Steve replaced the starter. No improvement. He tried checking various wiring issues and replaced the battery, etc. No improvement. Thinking he might have gotten a bad/weak new starter, bought a new replacement from the parts store. No improvement.

I went over there to Steve's last night and tried various things again. We pulled the ground cable off the frame. It was clean but we wirebrushed it anyway and scuffed the mounting point to make sure it had something good to attach upon. As an isolation effort, and I think I'd already tried it a few days ago but to be sure... I completely disconnected the battery in the trunk and put a second battery of my own on top of the engine. I then took the positive cable going from the remote solenoid to the stock mounting point (the 5th gens have a post in the engine bay to connect the trunk mounted battery cable to the starter cable) and connected it to my engine bay battery. Then I took some jumper cables and used both connectors to connect the ground post directly to the engine. Then I took a jumper wire from the 'S' terminal on the remote solenoid and tapped the other end to the positive on the battery.

Mind you, the motor is cold when I tried this and it still turned over the engine somewhat in a lazy fashion. So I told Steve, "I'm ordering high torque mini-starter. If it doesn't fix it, you're not paying for it. This is ridiculous!". I ordered one from Ohio Speed for his year/car last night.