Air Filter for Turbo?
You've stated twice that the air filter is a restriction. Is there any evidence to support that as a generic statement ?
There is no reason for a properly sized filter to offer any restriction to be in the slightest bit concerned about. And yes, smooth airflow will be better than turbulent airflow.
And ITB's dont always make more power....they can be tuned and setup to make more power on some applications and yes indeed plenum boxes and filters can be an important integral part of an ITB setup vs running them completely open...but again, generically they do not simply make more power.
There is no reason for a properly sized filter to offer any restriction to be in the slightest bit concerned about. And yes, smooth airflow will be better than turbulent airflow.
And ITB's dont always make more power....they can be tuned and setup to make more power on some applications and yes indeed plenum boxes and filters can be an important integral part of an ITB setup vs running them completely open...but again, generically they do not simply make more power.
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Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Norn Iron
Compared to what ?
Not all ITB's are the same, nor are all non ITB setups. If you're comparing a bad setup to a good setup...then of course you'd see gains. But again, generically ITB vs other....is a massively vague statement to make.
I'm sure I could take a bad ITB setup and replace it with a good plenum/single throttle design and show improvements everywhere. All that does is prove good is batter than bad.
But the OP in this thread certainly has room for a filter that will not pose him any restriction.
And the link you posted is a sales pitch for one brand of filter. It doesnt show what filter was removed, what size it was, what condition it was in, or indeed any useful details.
So it can be taken for what it is.....purely a biased advert for their own product.
And when a screen like that will filter **** all except rocks.....well, it might suit some...but you could hardly call it a filter.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Norn Iron
Compared to what ?
Not all ITB's are the same, nor are all non ITB setups. If you're comparing a bad setup to a good setup...then of course you'd see gains. But again, generically ITB vs other....is a massively vague statement to make.
I'm sure I could take a bad ITB setup and replace it with a good plenum/single throttle design and show improvements everywhere. All that does is prove good is batter than bad.
But the OP in this thread certainly has room for a filter that will not pose him any restriction.
And the link you posted is a sales pitch for one brand of filter. It doesnt show what filter was removed, what size it was, what condition it was in, or indeed any useful details.
So it can be taken for what it is.....purely a biased advert for their own product.
And when a screen like that will filter **** all except rocks.....well, it might suit some...but you could hardly call it a filter.
Not all ITB's are the same, nor are all non ITB setups. If you're comparing a bad setup to a good setup...then of course you'd see gains. But again, generically ITB vs other....is a massively vague statement to make.
I'm sure I could take a bad ITB setup and replace it with a good plenum/single throttle design and show improvements everywhere. All that does is prove good is batter than bad.
But the OP in this thread certainly has room for a filter that will not pose him any restriction.
And the link you posted is a sales pitch for one brand of filter. It doesnt show what filter was removed, what size it was, what condition it was in, or indeed any useful details.
So it can be taken for what it is.....purely a biased advert for their own product.
And when a screen like that will filter **** all except rocks.....well, it might suit some...but you could hardly call it a filter.
30 = 30 when RPM = exactly 5252, why:
torque * rpm * 33,000 / 2Pi = horsepower
So really, the term horsepower is a meaningless association between torque and rpm for a rotating force (2 pie) where 33,000lbs is moved 1 foot in 1 minute (thus the revolutions is in units per minute and torque is in units of feet*lbs)
For all intents and purposes, for tuning and otherwise, all we really care about is torque curve, as this generally follows cylinder fill and thus cylinder BMEP at the time. We aim for highest cylinder fill at highest rpm to get max work from an rotating force. We can use any units we want i.e. if I wanted cat power I could say that 500lbs moved 1 foot in 1 minute was cat power and derive another meaningless equation to alter the torque curve into cat power curve.
Power (horsepower, or Watts, or Joules/second, or any other unit of power) is still an important unit to measure is for various reasons, but more often than not we are using it to find torque anyways. for example when designing the shaft of a machine, the power unit is correlated to the stress in the materials, since power contains torque as one of its units this is possible to extract torque from power, if you know how to manipulate the units.
here is a random example for the shaft of a propeller on a boat:
"The solid propeller shaft on a ship extends outward
from the hull. During operation it turns at w = 15 rad/s
when the engine develops 900 kW of power. This causes a
thrust of F on the shaft. If the shaft has an outer
diameter of 250 mm, determine the principal stresses at any
point located on the surface of the shaft."
They are using power, and rotational velocity to determine stresses in the output shaft.
To solve first convert power to N*m/s (newton * meters per second)
then divide that by rad/second to get Torque
then we can calculate normal stress, in plane, and shear stress using that info to properly design a shaft of the appropriate diameter using safety factor required by code or design.
Just running it open can also cause turbulent airflow entering into the compressor and it could make less power from what I've seen too.
Last edited by kingtal0n; Mar 19, 2018 at 04:57 PM.
TECH Junkie
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 3,012
Likes: 48
Oh boy math. Hope you dont mind If I jump in... love this easy maths...
30 = 30 when RPM = exactly 5252, why:
torque * rpm * 33,000 / 2Pi = horsepower
So really, the term horsepower is a meaningless association between torque and rpm for a rotating force (2 pie) where 33,000lbs is moved 1 foot in 1 minute (thus the revolutions is in units per minute and torque is in units of feet*lbs)
For all intents and purposes, for tuning and otherwise, all we really care about is torque curve, as this generally follows cylinder fill and thus cylinder BMEP at the time. We aim for highest cylinder fill at highest rpm to get max work from an rotating force. We can use any units we want i.e. if I wanted cat power I could say that 500lbs moved 1 foot in 1 minute was cat power and derive another meaningless equation to alter the torque curve into cat power curve.
Power (horsepower, or Watts, or Joules/second, or any other unit of power) is still an important unit to measure is for various reasons, but more often than not we are using it to find torque anyways. for example when designing the shaft of a machine, the power unit is correlated to the stress in the materials, since power contains torque as one of its units this is possible to extract torque from power, if you know how to manipulate the units.
here is a random example for the shaft of a propeller on a boat:
"The solid propeller shaft on a ship extends outward
from the hull. During operation it turns at w = 15 rad/s
when the engine develops 900 kW of power. This causes a
thrust of F on the shaft. If the shaft has an outer
diameter of 250 mm, determine the principal stresses at any
point located on the surface of the shaft."
They are using power, and rotational velocity to determine stresses in the output shaft.
To solve first convert power to N*m/s (newton * meters per second)
then divide that by rad/second to get Torque
then we can calculate normal stress, in plane, and shear stress using that info to properly design a shaft of the appropriate diameter using safety factor required by code or design.
I love this. I have seen it happen. Its too bad we can't "see" air or this would be easy to defeat (hint: high frame rate capture smokey air entering turbo?). Its up to us to ensure the path air takes to get to the compressor inlet is as unrestrictive as possible, in general, and yes typically leaving "no path" the inlet just open is going to create intermittent issues with turbulence, especially near the fringes of surge conditions or between them, as the air flow rate is not a steady singular thing but a constantly changing aspect where it may start out fine but as flow increases gradually the incoming air starts to fall apart in it's organization I guess.
30 = 30 when RPM = exactly 5252, why:
torque * rpm * 33,000 / 2Pi = horsepower
So really, the term horsepower is a meaningless association between torque and rpm for a rotating force (2 pie) where 33,000lbs is moved 1 foot in 1 minute (thus the revolutions is in units per minute and torque is in units of feet*lbs)
For all intents and purposes, for tuning and otherwise, all we really care about is torque curve, as this generally follows cylinder fill and thus cylinder BMEP at the time. We aim for highest cylinder fill at highest rpm to get max work from an rotating force. We can use any units we want i.e. if I wanted cat power I could say that 500lbs moved 1 foot in 1 minute was cat power and derive another meaningless equation to alter the torque curve into cat power curve.
Power (horsepower, or Watts, or Joules/second, or any other unit of power) is still an important unit to measure is for various reasons, but more often than not we are using it to find torque anyways. for example when designing the shaft of a machine, the power unit is correlated to the stress in the materials, since power contains torque as one of its units this is possible to extract torque from power, if you know how to manipulate the units.
here is a random example for the shaft of a propeller on a boat:
"The solid propeller shaft on a ship extends outward
from the hull. During operation it turns at w = 15 rad/s
when the engine develops 900 kW of power. This causes a
thrust of F on the shaft. If the shaft has an outer
diameter of 250 mm, determine the principal stresses at any
point located on the surface of the shaft."
They are using power, and rotational velocity to determine stresses in the output shaft.
To solve first convert power to N*m/s (newton * meters per second)
then divide that by rad/second to get Torque
then we can calculate normal stress, in plane, and shear stress using that info to properly design a shaft of the appropriate diameter using safety factor required by code or design.
I love this. I have seen it happen. Its too bad we can't "see" air or this would be easy to defeat (hint: high frame rate capture smokey air entering turbo?). Its up to us to ensure the path air takes to get to the compressor inlet is as unrestrictive as possible, in general, and yes typically leaving "no path" the inlet just open is going to create intermittent issues with turbulence, especially near the fringes of surge conditions or between them, as the air flow rate is not a steady singular thing but a constantly changing aspect where it may start out fine but as flow increases gradually the incoming air starts to fall apart in it's organization I guess.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
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From: Norn Iron
he is trying to argue just for the sake of argument, its a proven trend and even he himself has convinced himself that is what he is here for
I would argue, but [excuse].
With no reason, absolutely has nothing to even argue about and wants to argue.
I say, let it rain, what harm can it do? fill pages and pages of arguments for the sake of doing it... that doesn't sound like a waste of time, of life.
I would argue, but [excuse].
With no reason, absolutely has nothing to even argue about and wants to argue.
I say, let it rain, what harm can it do? fill pages and pages of arguments for the sake of doing it... that doesn't sound like a waste of time, of life.
Someone has to post on this site without being an arrogant ***** like you.
EDIT...I apologize. I hadn't had my morning coffee yet and was cranky lol. Googling literally shows people having it both ways, gaining and losing. The 1 thing that sticks with me is how many people are able to gain boost when removing the filter. More boost is typically more power and would indicate a restriction, hence the reason I'm digging more on this. If you have pertinent info to share it would be nice to see an example.
EDIT...I apologize. I hadn't had my morning coffee yet and was cranky lol. Googling literally shows people having it both ways, gaining and losing. The 1 thing that sticks with me is how many people are able to gain boost when removing the filter. More boost is typically more power and would indicate a restriction, hence the reason I'm digging more on this. If you have pertinent info to share it would be nice to see an example.
Last edited by ddnspider; Mar 20, 2018 at 06:42 AM.
he is trying to argue just for the sake of argument, its a proven trend and even he himself has convinced himself that is what he is here for
I would argue, but [excuse].
With no reason, absolutely has nothing to even argue about and wants to argue.
I say, let it rain, what harm can it do? fill pages and pages of arguments for the sake of doing it... that doesn't sound like a waste of time, of life.
I would argue, but [excuse].
With no reason, absolutely has nothing to even argue about and wants to argue.
I say, let it rain, what harm can it do? fill pages and pages of arguments for the sake of doing it... that doesn't sound like a waste of time, of life.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron