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Figured I would start a thread versus muddying up the other ones for the sake of the OP's.
If you have used this combo and/or still are, could you please post up if you had any high RPM issues or if you didn't. If the car pulled great up to 6300+, possibly post up your ignition settings or any other general setting that had to be tweaked.
My car hits a wall at 5,500 rpms and just hangs without gaining any RPM, sometimes it misfires slightly, others it does not. The tune is not perfect yet though and I am tuning it on a dyno next Friday so I plan to work on it then and really see if I have an issue or not...hard to do on the street in high gear. Hopefully I can actually get a good log of it too. I also may be turbine limited (TC78 1.15 housing), however the others on the board with issues are not turbine limited and still have this issue.
I am definitely NOT blaming the GB in any way, my gut says its just a setting that needs changing and/or simple wiring to reduce the effects of noise on the system. I freaken love my GB and the only issue I have which may or may not be related is about 75% of the time at the high rpm runs, my TS software will "freeze" and also stop data logging. If I unplug the USB cable, TS will immediatley disconect from the car, once I plug it back in, it will reconnect and usually log fine until I do another WOT run.
Im currently having an issue with my GB car. Kinda falls on its face above 5500 and power drops off fast, although it still pulls to redline. Tuner studio also kind of locks up on some pulls and most of my datalogs crap out at high RPM and then it starts logging again once im off the throttle. If you look at the logs the timer skips from say 19 sec straight to 24 sec.
Im not ready to place the blame on the GB just yet, i have some mechanicals i want to go through and make sure everything is 100%.
Thanks for the link 3 Window. I saw you referenced that in Eadz thread and I was unable to find it in my searching for some odd reason. Good info there.
Thanks as well Eadz28...your thread was one of the reason I posted my own thread to hopefully get more responses to help us all without muddying yours up. Mike from EFI Source said it could be a hard drive problem with the laptop (vibration sensitive) and the logging and for me to try a SD card. Sorry if I missed it but are you using a SD card? That wouldn't fix the falling off problem but hopefully the logging to help you see if something else was going on. I will post a pic of my ignition page when I get home.
I have the same issues with the MS3. Was told again today I’m not making enough power for the gearing and converters I run. They said with a 3.25 gear 30” tire combo and a 14 stator 9.5” converter... I should be making 1200+. When I said I run a 2.73 gear in the other car they just thought I was nuts, lol.
BlackSS4thgen is going 7’s @ 180+ and revving his pretty high without issue. It’s the newer EVO MS, but they use the basic MS3X boards I believe? I did a comparison report with my tune and his and didn’t see anything too different setting s wise.
I’ve never had the issues with data logging mentioned above or any issues with ignition breaking up. I go overkill on grounds... which may be totally irrelevant.
I ran the same converter as Forcefed86 with a 3.08 but a 28 inch tire and a th400. No issues with the Holley system. Truck coils and NGKs gapped at 0.20. Ran it to 6500 and never had it nose over.
Ah gotcha... The 10” has different stators as well so I'm not sure if ours are the same or not. They will all slip/couple at different rates depending on what PTC threw in them. Same with the 9.5”. I've got a 9.5 in the Rx7 and a 10" in the mustang. Thought they said the 10" comes with a 100 stator? I know they said they could install a 102 stator in mine to loosen it up. Should be stamped on the box.
Last edited by Forcefed86; 06-22-2018 at 02:11 PM.
Ok switched to SD logging and also added a speed sensor...I did manage to get one log of the problem. Will post it as soon as I download it. Hold please.
Forced, I too am a ground freak and was warned that this was important so did everything I could to ensure good grounds on everything.
A good friend is letting me borrow known good plug wires and I'm going to put a fresh set of plugs in it. Have a dyno scheduled Friday so hopefully I can iron out the tune/problem without having to watch the road or for other people who don't appreciate excessive speed.
Ok here is the first log I have been able to get of the problem. As soon as the car fell on it's face, I let off. You can see the loss in RPM as well as MPH. Signals are noisy so I may need to add smoothing. 13psi, 15deg timing, 50% water injection is 800ml/min 75/25 meth/water.
It's hot here, like 95F and really humid.
No sync loss.
I may just wait for dyno to further diagnose.
What ignition wires are you using? Alot of issues with aftermarket wires and RF. You can test them with an old AM/FM radio I hear. Keep meaning to do this, but never have. Probe around the wires with the antenna. With the car running. The RF noise will distort the radio. It’s pretty obvious I’m told. Magnacore are some of the best RF wise if you go performance aftermarket. I’m told Fire Core and MSD are some of the worst.
Any better with less water injection duty? Have you tried without the water/meth?
Just noticed your water/meth question, oops.
So I also flow tested the nozzle set-up I have using the test mode and did find some interesting things out. I don't have my flow numbers with me but I do remember with the highest frequency settings (78Hz), there really wasn't much difference between 25% and 100%...maybe 100ml/min. The best spread I got was using the 11.1Hz. I found out my DO 5 nozzle has a jacked up spray pattern and also only puts out like 300ml/min at 200psi & 100% duty cycle. The DO14 will make around 1,000ml/min at the same settings, slightly less pressure.
I ended up setting it to pulse with the injector frequency so I think that is RPM/120 to get the actual frequency. I bumped my WOT/max MAP duty cycle down from EDIT 50% to 25% (450ml/min) and that also helped on top of the lag factors. I need to do another extended run to see how it pulls better up top and if it misfires...didn't have the right conditions to do so on my last test drive.
I have not run it without the meth injection.
Man, for some reason my first response about the wires didn't post.
Using stock wires (400ohm). A good friend of mine noted he had trouble with "performance" aftermarket wires on another vendor's ECU...so that's a good point you made. He also noted his 1,000w+ corvette uses factory wires that ohm at 2,000ohms. Wonder if there is a reason for GM doing this?
I will try the radio trick, thanks!
Might turn the boost down and see how it does without. I can drown mine out pretty good at 100% duty. It didn’t cough or sputter, but would drop about 4lbs and felt really sluggish. My pressure wasn’t linear with DC increase either. I calculated flow based on pressure... So the GPH is estimated. Should be semi accurate though.
Holy smokes that's alot of injection! If you had time, I'd be curious to see what the actual volume dispensed is at the respective DC %. You wouldn't have to do all of them, but maybe 20, 55 & 100 to see if the numbers jive. I used a graduated medical container and did timed sprays for 30secs, then doubled the numbers for ml/min.
I have always wondered what the max "wet" flow is when using stock style intakes, if yours is distributing that much evenly then I won't ever have anything to worry about lol.
Another fun fact for today...I tested a Snow 60ml nozzle, at 200psi it flowed 120ml/min if memory serves. I believe they are rated at 40psi so that makes sense.
Forced, I forgot to ask, if you are running a 1:1 fuel regulator, would you be willing to share a screenshot of your MS3 VE table via pm or e-mail? My VE table doesn't really make sense... maybe I am just way down on power. Friday can't come soon enough.
So Friday I took my car to FlimFlamSpeed to dyno it (dude is solid!) It was a disappointing dyno with respect to numbers but the learnings were worth every cent.
It turns out my "wall" was all fuel related. First pull, my in-car wideband read "---" the entire pass, the tailpipe WB didn't really register, we assume it was below 9.5:1 and Tunerstudio said 11.4 lol. Made a whopping 388rw at 11psi, 14 deg timing.
Over the course of 6 more pulls, I took out a total of 25% of fuel and each time it picked up power. Still only ended up with 520w. I was afraid to go up with the boost or remove anymore fuel as we still had three WB readings. On the last pull, in-car said 10.2-4, tailpipe said 10.8-11.1 and TS said...you guessed it, 11.4. The car does pull cleanly to the limiter @ 6200rpm now though. Plugs still look good but they had quite a few passes on them of course.
I forgot to take a screenshot of my VE table but something is up. Idle cells are in the 40-45 %, the last pull was 62 to 63% in the11psi and 5500 to 6200rpm cells.
some have said my injector dead time must be off (running de-capped Ls2 injectors aka FAST 85lb injectors), deadtime is .9ms. I can see where this will greatly affect my idle VE and maybe that will shift things in the right direction? Anyone have dead/lag times for these injectors?
Multiple people have said to run it without the methanol first....but because I am hardheaded and afraid of doing it, I have resisted up until now...however I pulled a few degrees of timing out of it the other day and ran the test. I have not gotten to 11.4-11.5 AFR yet via autotune but so far it's looking like I will be end up in the mid to high 60's on the VE table without meth at the same boost level & RPM's. I physically measured the total 50/50 I am spraying again and it's right around 650ml/min. All the calculators I see say I should be almost double that.
Now that I have fixed the rpm issue, I need to wrap my head around what's going on with the VE table or does it really even matter? I am "including AFR" which will be a nice feature once the VE table is straight but that will lower my VE numbers due to multiplying by (target AFR/14.7). Is everyone else here including the AFR in the fuel calculation?
I played with my AEM WB calibration and at least have TS reading down to 10.8. Below that, TS stays at 10.8 and my AEM keeps diving. Current custom calibration is 0v=9.29, 5v=20afr.
I verified my engine timing and it's the same as what TS is saying within a degree.
Forced, I have been chewing on your PM's all week, thanks for the info!
Here is an ultra mega sweet video of my mega ultra awesome high powered 5.3. My phone clips the sound once the wastegate opens.
For claimed meth flow vs reality meth flow for any pump/nozzle setup....take any pressure claims for the pumps as a little bullshit.
I tested recently myself, and pressure is never 200psi, and certainly at lower pump duties I seen as low as 30-40psi ( albeit with more nozzle than you ), so in real terms 40psi at the nozzle and say 15psi boost fighting it....leaves only 25psi to push meth in.
IMO these 200psi claims are probably with either very small nozzles or against a dead end AND with the pump run at 100% duty. When in reality almost nobody with "progressive" controller will ever see at lower duties.
Larger nozzles will result in less pressure due to lower restriction and lower duties will also result in less flow/pressure, simply through what the pump is doing
Thanks for the input Stevieturbo. For the reasons you mentioned, I tested the meth flow using my MS3 test mode, measuring the amount of fluid despensed over time. To your point, the flow would be reduced at the nozzle due to the boost which I did not account for but also would be increased some due to the extra voltage I would have once the car was running. I "assumed" these would almost cancel eachother out. If not then worst case is, the flow would be less than I actually measured.
Again, I am not sure what a VE table is supposed to look like, or if it even matters....I just wanted it to make sense at least and be comparable to others I have seen on here and in Denmah's tunes. I notice in some of his, he is not running a 1:1 regulator and not including AFR and his VE is nearly 100 or more at the boost I am.
As mentioned, I am nearly finished with the no meth tune and it looks as if my VE will only be slightly more than with the meth...so the "problem" is still there.
Maybe it's just a combination of me using a 1:1 regulator and including AFR. I have read that including AFR makes the VE table closer to what the true VE is of the engine. So small cam, 706 heads, small turbine turbo...maybe it does make sense.
06-20-2018, 06:48 AM
Boosted GoldBox-MS3 Users 
