Have Procharger FMIC questions!!!
07-07-2004, 10:11 PM
#1
Have Procharger FMIC questions!!! In a few months im going to be investing in a Procharger basic 6-8# kit. I want to do a FMIC. Search yielded unuseful information. What are the benfits to this setup? I am aware the fuel system will need beefed up and 8# is the maximum safe boost for a stock internal LS1. Im a newbie to superchargers, i need to know how difficult this task will be for me to install over a weekend. any information would be great thanks! 
andrew
andrew
07-07-2004, 10:15 PM
#2
Why go with a big front mount when this kit works well for what it is designed for........ stock motor to be running 8 psi of boost and make around 450rwhp and be done........ way over kill and not needed for what you are wanting to do..... unless you plan on building the motor later. Go with a set of 42# injectors and a Walbro 340 intank pump and tuning, tuning, tuning..... cant stress the tuning..... do a search on me and see why tuning is so important and what 11 psi will do on a stock bottom end....
Kyle
Kyle
07-07-2004, 11:06 PM
#3
The dual IC's block a lot of air flow which leads to higher temps. The dual IC's also have much more plumbing. You really should give Chris at ECS a ring. My custom SIC D1SC from ECS is at the shop as we speak being installed. Current projections are around 500 rwhp with my setup. (I'll be happy with anything over 460ish).
If you want a run down of the *real* costs in going FI feel free to email me.
Cheers,
Mark
If you want a run down of the *real* costs in going FI feel free to email me.
Cheers,
Mark
07-08-2004, 05:35 AM
#4
i know that the kits come with the dual side mounts, but i cant get over the look of a FMIC on a Camaro. I was wondering if the 1 larger intercooler would increase boost to the danger levels on a stock bottem end. I dont plan on rebuilding the motor anytime soon, my goals are to reach about 500 rwhp.
07-08-2004, 12:24 PM
#6
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I have a car with a big front mount...
#1. It blocks radiator airflow...
#2. Not as thermally efficient as an air to water.
#3. More pressure drop than a correctly sized air to water.
#4. harder to install
#5. Easily damaged by everyday road trash.. pebbles.. rocks and other debris..
Get a small PTE air to water...
You will need a pump, lines, a small tank for the water and a small heat exchanger (looks like an oil cooler) ..
The air to water in this picture is made from two cores... Way more than you need since the smallest PTE air to water is rated at 900hp. The efficiency of the air to water is worth it... It may be harder to install an a bit more weight but well worth it...
A FMIC is about 50% efficient with a good core and ample air flow thru it. Which means that in the real world on a car they are well below this since I have seen very few where the core had even airflow thru the entire core.. Many installations have sections of core that get little to none... So about 34% in the real world...
An air to water just cooling the water with ambient air temp is about 75% efficient...
It would probably be around 25hp difference including the gain from less pressure drop... If you are at a higher boost level more.. At 8# the air is'nt getting heated too much by the charger.... At higher levels you notice the efficiency more because the air leaves the supe hotter.
With an air to water with ice water... or my favorite.. hitting the exchanger with N2o or Co2 is 120%... That is a 50 hp difference at 8# at 12# It is probably 70-75hp difference...
Use co2 only if away from intake.... think opposite effect of nos in the engine.
#1. It blocks radiator airflow...
#2. Not as thermally efficient as an air to water.
#3. More pressure drop than a correctly sized air to water.
#4. harder to install
#5. Easily damaged by everyday road trash.. pebbles.. rocks and other debris..
Get a small PTE air to water...
You will need a pump, lines, a small tank for the water and a small heat exchanger (looks like an oil cooler) ..
The air to water in this picture is made from two cores... Way more than you need since the smallest PTE air to water is rated at 900hp. The efficiency of the air to water is worth it... It may be harder to install an a bit more weight but well worth it...
A FMIC is about 50% efficient with a good core and ample air flow thru it. Which means that in the real world on a car they are well below this since I have seen very few where the core had even airflow thru the entire core.. Many installations have sections of core that get little to none... So about 34% in the real world...
An air to water just cooling the water with ambient air temp is about 75% efficient...
It would probably be around 25hp difference including the gain from less pressure drop... If you are at a higher boost level more.. At 8# the air is'nt getting heated too much by the charger.... At higher levels you notice the efficiency more because the air leaves the supe hotter.
With an air to water with ice water... or my favorite.. hitting the exchanger with N2o or Co2 is 120%... That is a 50 hp difference at 8# at 12# It is probably 70-75hp difference...
Use co2 only if away from intake.... think opposite effect of nos in the engine.
07-08-2004, 01:19 PM
#7
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DSM,
Do you have a link to the PTE site where the lowest intercooler is good for 900hp?
Air to Water is better for a race car, but in an everyday driving scenario I would rather have air to air. And most every turbo car come stock with air to air for the same reason
You visit the Turbotech site alot it seems, lol
thanks
ed
firebird455@onebox.com
Do you have a link to the PTE site where the lowest intercooler is good for 900hp?
Air to Water is better for a race car, but in an everyday driving scenario I would rather have air to air. And most every turbo car come stock with air to air for the same reason
You visit the Turbotech site alot it seems, lol
thanks
ed
firebird455@onebox.com
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07-08-2004, 01:47 PM
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It seems that way because they have pretty pictures which help people who have'nt seen some parts before......also PTE does'nt have pics of the air to water ic's... the turbotech 5.9 kit clearly shows the PTE logo on the end tanks..
http://www.precisionte.com/products/...+Air++Complete
Look at the PWR barrel intercoolers too... They are alright and come in different sizes and can fit in places the non barrels cant.
"Air to Water is better for a race car, but in an everyday driving scenario I would rather have air to air. And most every turbo car come stock with air to air for the same reason"
1. It is cheaper parts wise.
2. Cheaper labor wise and to integrate to an originally NT based car.
3. Small turbo(s) are ok with small side mount(s) so it does'nt block the radiator..
4. FMIC street racer fashion...
I had the factory side then a BIG front mount... Any FMIC in day to day driving is going to collect bent fins and pebbles between the fins etc... I had some mesh up too... About as fine as you can go w/o hurting the airflow... Nothing like looking at $600 spearco with bent fins..
Air to water with the water cooled to just weather temperature beats the air to air... Yes icewater systems have radical efficiencies... Honestly spray the "mini radator" for the water with evaporating liquid and you have the track day power any time you need it..
I have been down the turbo car road and in hindsight on the DSM i should have gone air to water... I drove one DSM street car that had one... It elimated many FEET of intercooler pipe. That does DECREASE lag. It streamlined the whole airflow portion of the IC system. The water hoses are flexible and easy to work with unlike large sections of IC piping.. No body work was modded or even removed to install everything..
Their are pros and cons to each.... IMHO with the right tricks air to water always wins.
http://www.precisionte.com/products/...+Air++Complete
Look at the PWR barrel intercoolers too... They are alright and come in different sizes and can fit in places the non barrels cant.
"Air to Water is better for a race car, but in an everyday driving scenario I would rather have air to air. And most every turbo car come stock with air to air for the same reason"
1. It is cheaper parts wise.
2. Cheaper labor wise and to integrate to an originally NT based car.
3. Small turbo(s) are ok with small side mount(s) so it does'nt block the radiator..
4. FMIC street racer fashion...
I had the factory side then a BIG front mount... Any FMIC in day to day driving is going to collect bent fins and pebbles between the fins etc... I had some mesh up too... About as fine as you can go w/o hurting the airflow... Nothing like looking at $600 spearco with bent fins..
Air to water with the water cooled to just weather temperature beats the air to air... Yes icewater systems have radical efficiencies... Honestly spray the "mini radator" for the water with evaporating liquid and you have the track day power any time you need it..
I have been down the turbo car road and in hindsight on the DSM i should have gone air to water... I drove one DSM street car that had one... It elimated many FEET of intercooler pipe. That does DECREASE lag. It streamlined the whole airflow portion of the IC system. The water hoses are flexible and easy to work with unlike large sections of IC piping.. No body work was modded or even removed to install everything..
Their are pros and cons to each.... IMHO with the right tricks air to water always wins.
Last edited by V8_DSM_V8again; 07-08-2004 at 03:00 PM.
07-08-2004, 02:08 PM
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well, you can get upgraded side mounts that will flow similar to larger front mount. My friend has one on his 91 DSM, and then a FMIC on his talon.
the water to air is a good bit more expensive, you pay around at least 500 for a decent core, and the pump, radiator, hoses.
air to air is a good bit cheaper
but I see why you like the other one better
later
ed
the water to air is a good bit more expensive, you pay around at least 500 for a decent core, and the pump, radiator, hoses.
air to air is a good bit cheaper
but I see why you like the other one better
later
ed
07-08-2004, 02:28 PM
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Similar to a small front mount.. The erector set of twice as much tubing all the bends, small cores.. just chokes a big turbo.. Try holding 25 psi+ to a 8k+ redline with a small or cheap IC without heatsoaking...
The twin sidemounts were from alamo motorsports.. atleast they did the first ones then dejon tool did it.. Better off spraying the stock single with N20 fogger... It will cool more than two side mounts and be less of an airflow restriction.
So 500 for a decent core and the plumbing is extra ..huh
Well look at a dsm air to air front mount... I mean one that is'nt crap... Actually any air to air with a spearco core this size and piping for any car will cost about that much...
$979
http://www.rnrracing.com/cgi-bin/ccp...ME:DSM:fmiccat
Now just the intercooler with no pipes is $570 dollars..
A good core is expensive. Any cheap IC core is probably inefficent and poorly constructed..
Honestly on a car with few kits (f-bods) the price difference would be small between air to air and air to water..
If you are trying to run as much boost as you can on the stock block a cooler charge is better no matter what psi...
$100 says between two cars with the same setup except the IC's the air to air will get stomped from a stop on a hot summer day... The FMIC will heatsoak since it is right next to the radiator and the radiator will be hotter than normal due to restricted airflow.
Meanwhile in the other lane the radiator gets stock airflow and is therefore cooler so happy motor. Also since the heat exhanger is a side mount It does'nt get near as much radiant heat from anything and has its own fan. this means the water temp for the IC is good.... It is being pumped thru the IC so the IC is ready in advance to drop down the old intake charge temp as opposed to being much hotter than air temp.
The twin sidemounts were from alamo motorsports.. atleast they did the first ones then dejon tool did it.. Better off spraying the stock single with N20 fogger... It will cool more than two side mounts and be less of an airflow restriction.
So 500 for a decent core and the plumbing is extra ..huh
Well look at a dsm air to air front mount... I mean one that is'nt crap... Actually any air to air with a spearco core this size and piping for any car will cost about that much...
$979
http://www.rnrracing.com/cgi-bin/ccp...ME:DSM:fmiccat
Now just the intercooler with no pipes is $570 dollars..
A good core is expensive. Any cheap IC core is probably inefficent and poorly constructed..
Honestly on a car with few kits (f-bods) the price difference would be small between air to air and air to water..
If you are trying to run as much boost as you can on the stock block a cooler charge is better no matter what psi...
$100 says between two cars with the same setup except the IC's the air to air will get stomped from a stop on a hot summer day... The FMIC will heatsoak since it is right next to the radiator and the radiator will be hotter than normal due to restricted airflow.
Meanwhile in the other lane the radiator gets stock airflow and is therefore cooler so happy motor. Also since the heat exhanger is a side mount It does'nt get near as much radiant heat from anything and has its own fan. this means the water temp for the IC is good.... It is being pumped thru the IC so the IC is ready in advance to drop down the old intake charge temp as opposed to being much hotter than air temp.
Last edited by V8_DSM_V8again; 07-08-2004 at 02:47 PM.
07-08-2004, 02:33 PM
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the thing that gets me with the DSM guys is that they get new FMIC's and upgrade the size of the intercooler piping, and hten they have the stock J-pipe on their super 20g.
it seem pointless to me, that 17/8's J-pipe and then nice piping nad a nice intercooler why bother
ed
it seem pointless to me, that 17/8's J-pipe and then nice piping nad a nice intercooler why bother
ed
07-08-2004, 02:53 PM
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Shep got that car from dave buschur with the 20g on it.. Back then it was the only affordable big turbo.... Now you can get a PTE SCM61 (M=mitsu) for less than that outdated design...
Some DSM guys are smart and cool... The old school people I dig.... the too fat too furry assed bandwagon guys well... Everybody with a NT RS/GS around here asks me if I still have my stock exhaust because they want just the muffler with the dual tips.. Also somehow their decklid RS or GS badging has already disapeared...
Some DSM guys are smart and cool... The old school people I dig.... the too fat too furry assed bandwagon guys well... Everybody with a NT RS/GS around here asks me if I still have my stock exhaust because they want just the muffler with the dual tips.. Also somehow their decklid RS or GS badging has already disapeared...
07-08-2004, 05:30 PM
#15
the airflow to the radiator for a F Body is far different than a DSM, with a DSM yes ur blocking a good portion of the radiator with a FMIC but with a F Body, the air flows under the bumper and up, the front clip on all F Bodys doesnt support vast amounts of air travel. So it flows under and up. a FMIC on a F Body wouldnt restrict airflow anymore than haveing the bumper on there w/o anything cut away.
07-08-2004, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by got milk??
the airflow to the radiator for a F Body is far different than a DSM, with a DSM yes ur blocking a good portion of the radiator with a FMIC but with a F Body, the air flows under the bumper and up, the front clip on all F Bodys doesnt support vast amounts of air travel. So it flows under and up. a FMIC on a F Body wouldnt restrict airflow anymore than haveing the bumper on there w/o anything cut away.
All the more reason why a FMIC would'nt be efficient. Poor airflow thru it =poor efficiency.
The 97 up DSM's have a pretty big mouth.. 95-96 are pretty small in comparison.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-induction/190306-fmic-trans-am.html
Look at the TA... something tells me the FMIC is restricting airfow thru the radiator no matter what the bumper cover looks like.. Thru the bumper, around the bumper., no bumper it does'nt matter.. The FMIC is still right next to the radiator across the majority of its face and air needs to go thru the FMIC first.
I know one thing that car has an open area equal to the later DSM body style and I have seen the same IC core size and MFG on those cars too..
The IC probably works good with the open bumper but the car will probably need a really good aluminum radiator... It does affect engine cooling.... I have seen it.. There are a few different front bumpers some more open than others and of course all can be changed a bit. IMHO I'd rather leave it alone and run a more efficient IC system....
07-08-2004, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by got milk??
In a few months im going to be investing in a Procharger basic 6-8# kit. I want to do a FMIC. Search yielded unuseful information. What are the benfits to this setup? I am aware the fuel system will need beefed up and 8# is the maximum safe boost for a stock internal LS1. Im a newbie to superchargers, i need to know how difficult this task will be for me to install over a weekend. any information would be great thanks!
andrew
andrew
Benifits of a FMIC is that it gets it out from underneath the car, if you're not going to go wild with the thing then you should get the twin intercooler setup.
Using this setup back when the car was running 8#'s of boost, the air temps would only go up 20* by the end of the 1/4.
Good luck and remember boost is addictive
Marc
07-08-2004, 09:56 PM
#18
Originally Posted by V8_DSM_V8again
"the front clip on all F Bodys doesnt support vast amounts of air travel. "
All the more reason why a FMIC would'nt be efficient. Poor airflow thru it =poor efficiency.
The 97 up DSM's have a pretty big mouth.. 95-96 are pretty small in comparison.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190306
Look at the TA... something tells me the FMIC is restricting airfow thru the radiator no matter what the bumper cover looks like.. Thru the bumper, around the bumper., no bumper it does'nt matter.. The FMIC is still right next to the radiator across the majority of its face and air needs to go thru the FMIC first.
I know one thing that car has an open area equal to the later DSM body style and I have seen the same IC core size and MFG on those cars too..
The IC probably works good with the open bumper but the car will probably need a really good aluminum radiator... It does affect engine cooling.... I have seen it.. There are a few different front bumpers some more open than others and of course all can be changed a bit. IMHO I'd rather leave it alone and run a more efficient IC system....
All the more reason why a FMIC would'nt be efficient. Poor airflow thru it =poor efficiency.
The 97 up DSM's have a pretty big mouth.. 95-96 are pretty small in comparison.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190306
Look at the TA... something tells me the FMIC is restricting airfow thru the radiator no matter what the bumper cover looks like.. Thru the bumper, around the bumper., no bumper it does'nt matter.. The FMIC is still right next to the radiator across the majority of its face and air needs to go thru the FMIC first.
I know one thing that car has an open area equal to the later DSM body style and I have seen the same IC core size and MFG on those cars too..
The IC probably works good with the open bumper but the car will probably need a really good aluminum radiator... It does affect engine cooling.... I have seen it.. There are a few different front bumpers some more open than others and of course all can be changed a bit. IMHO I'd rather leave it alone and run a more efficient IC system....
That picture has nothing to do with the way air is fed into the radiator..... the radiator gets its own air after the IC... the IC is first and mounted on the the front bumber support and the radiator is mounted in its stock location and gets it air from under neath not from straight ahead...ie blocking the air flow from straight ahead is of no concearn........ Heres were mine is going to be mounted.. just like PSJ's
Thats just my .02 though.
Kyle
07-09-2004, 01:55 AM
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Yea, I'll agree with not having any problems w/the radiator having air flow, we have iron block cars, on summer days its friggin hot when I pop my hood, you can feel all the heat hit you....
I have a spal 16" fan that pushes 2500cfm, that keeps my temps down along with the 4" CAS radiator......my intake temps with the stock IC's are around 160......
The FMIC should decrease my temps to 90 degrees, it will be mounted right where NASTY has his.....I'll be sure to post pics when its installed......but the radiator and what not shouldn't have problems getting air w/the regular setup....
I have a spal 16" fan that pushes 2500cfm, that keeps my temps down along with the 4" CAS radiator......my intake temps with the stock IC's are around 160......
The FMIC should decrease my temps to 90 degrees, it will be mounted right where NASTY has his.....I'll be sure to post pics when its installed......but the radiator and what not shouldn't have problems getting air w/the regular setup....