6.0 s488 not making power like it should, send help
06-21-2020, 12:55 PM
#1
6.0 s488 not making power like it should, send help This may get kinda long but try to read it all, please
setup as follows;
gen3 6.0, gen4 rods, summit pro ls pistons,10:1, 317heads
motor is fresh and healthy, no blow by, no smoke, exactly 145psi cold cranking in all 8
Summit stage 4 turbo cam
ls7 lifters
btr trunnion, chromoly pushrods
btr 660s (all this stuff is new)
Btr equalizer intake 102tb
bosch 210s
competition engineering headers
2.5" hot side all tigged
vsr billet 88/103
5" hood dump
Fully divided setup with a single vsr60mm on 1 bank
Intercooler pipe 4" all around going to type 12 a2w with davies craig pump
Th400
ptc 9.5 15-0
3.27 gear
ms3x
e85
car wont make more then 650whp on a superflo dyno at over 23lbs off boost. Made 700 once at like 17psi.
car was not breaking up both the dyno graphs and logs show smooth rpm rise all the say to 7500
We verified timing and it was 2 degrees off in the ms3x but that's not gonna kill this much power. Haven't looked at cam timing yet because dint really want to just yet.
the dyno was showing 168mph on a 26" tire at 7300
Which is like 1% converter slip not sure if that is too much or not. Car sounds good and loud on the dyno but should be making a lot more nobody can make sense of it.
At 24lbs it was at 66% duty cycle, 15lbs was 37%
Almost seems like cam or ignition timing but Idk
any help is appreciated
happy fathers day
setup as follows;
gen3 6.0, gen4 rods, summit pro ls pistons,10:1, 317heads
motor is fresh and healthy, no blow by, no smoke, exactly 145psi cold cranking in all 8
Summit stage 4 turbo cam
ls7 lifters
btr trunnion, chromoly pushrods
btr 660s (all this stuff is new)
Btr equalizer intake 102tb
bosch 210s
competition engineering headers
2.5" hot side all tigged
vsr billet 88/103
5" hood dump
Fully divided setup with a single vsr60mm on 1 bank
Intercooler pipe 4" all around going to type 12 a2w with davies craig pump
Th400
ptc 9.5 15-0
3.27 gear
ms3x
e85
car wont make more then 650whp on a superflo dyno at over 23lbs off boost. Made 700 once at like 17psi.
car was not breaking up both the dyno graphs and logs show smooth rpm rise all the say to 7500
We verified timing and it was 2 degrees off in the ms3x but that's not gonna kill this much power. Haven't looked at cam timing yet because dint really want to just yet.
the dyno was showing 168mph on a 26" tire at 7300
Which is like 1% converter slip not sure if that is too much or not. Car sounds good and loud on the dyno but should be making a lot more nobody can make sense of it.
At 24lbs it was at 66% duty cycle, 15lbs was 37%
Almost seems like cam or ignition timing but Idk
any help is appreciated
happy fathers day
06-21-2020, 01:52 PM
#3
I’ll probably get crucified for this, but seems a lot of people having problems making power when adding more boost are using off shore turbos. Not all, but quite a few. Just because there’s boost doesn’t mean there’s air mass. Not saying that’s the problem, but I’d consider it. Post up a log like asked and let’s see what’s up.
What intercooler?
What intercooler?
06-21-2020, 01:55 PM
#4
06-21-2020, 01:57 PM
#5
I’ll probably get crucified for this, but seems a lot of people having problems making power when adding more boost are using off shore turbos. Not all, but quite a few. Just because there’s boost doesn’t mean there’s air mass. Not saying that’s the problem, but I’d consider it. Post up a log like asked and let’s see what’s up.
What intercooler?
What intercooler?
06-21-2020, 02:06 PM
#6
Anyone else think Thats pretty darn low cranking compression for a 10:1 6.0? The ones I've worked with are are usually in the 170-180+ with factory compression and LS9 gaskets. You degree the cam?
FWIW I had a motor that was over 8* retarded from teh cam card. Advancing the cam to the card specs gained me 12mph at the track at the same boost level. And raised my cranking compression from 140's to over 200. That was a 10:1 5.3.
FWIW I had a motor that was over 8* retarded from teh cam card. Advancing the cam to the card specs gained me 12mph at the track at the same boost level. And raised my cranking compression from 140's to over 200. That was a 10:1 5.3.
06-21-2020, 02:15 PM
#7
Anyone else think Thats pretty darn low cranking compression for a 10:1 6.0? The ones I've worked with are are usually in the 170-180+ with factory compression and LS9 gaskets. You degree the cam?
FWIW I had a motor that was over 8* retarded from teh cam card. Advancing the cam to the card specs gained me 12mph at the track at the same boost level. And raised my cranking compression from 140's to over 200. That was a 10:1 5.3.
FWIW I had a motor that was over 8* retarded from teh cam card. Advancing the cam to the card specs gained me 12mph at the track at the same boost level. And raised my cranking compression from 140's to over 200. That was a 10:1 5.3.
With 145psi I have now it seems very advanced but i know installed it dot to dot with a brand new ls2 chain..
the motor is getting air and fuel it seems but the power is bleeding off somewhere
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06-21-2020, 02:34 PM
#8
Degree the cam to specified ICL and report back cranking compression. Tell everyone you know, dot to dot is not installing a cam per spec. It's a guess and hope, at best. Sorry to rant. What hp gain per psi?
06-21-2020, 03:34 PM
#10
I thought about about doing this but if somethings wrong I dont wanna waste my time... raising boost from 15 to 24 didnt really gain anything. Averaged 650 with 9 or 10 dyno pulls... going both ways with fuel and timing didnt help too much tried 18 degrees at 22lbs which is more then I normally try to run, tried 15 degrees and nothing... when I hit 700 I think I tried 2nd gear and it was around 17lbs and 15degrees.. I'm looking up cam degree wheel kits right now lol any other ideas are always helpful
06-21-2020, 03:53 PM
#11
That's a lot of cam and intake for a 317 headed 6.0.
But I don't think that is your problem. I think you're just having bad dyno luck.
Try another dyno, preferably another type of dyno to confirm results.
But I don't think that is your problem. I think you're just having bad dyno luck.
Try another dyno, preferably another type of dyno to confirm results.
06-21-2020, 04:52 PM
#12
I don’t think it’s nothing to do with the motor compression, turbo cam bleed off cylinder pressure, we went 4.50@158 with a car that had 140-145 lbs of compression, it made 1108 the wheel but hell at the weight it has to be making 1550ish, need to log pressure before The intercooler to see what the pressure drop is
I thought about about doing this but if somethings wrong I dont wanna waste my time... raising boost from 15 to 24 didnt really gain anything. Averaged 650 with 9 or 10 dyno pulls... going both ways with fuel and timing didnt help too much tried 18 degrees at 22lbs which is more then I normally try to run, tried 15 degrees and nothing... when I hit 700 I think I tried 2nd gear and it was around 17lbs and 15degrees.. I'm looking up cam degree wheel kits right now lol any other ideas are always helpful
06-22-2020, 07:40 AM
#13
So, knowing what pump(s) you're running and the base fuel pressure is important. AFR is also important, but keep in mind that if you are running AutoTune and/or EGO Correction, the MS3X is gonna try like hell to maintain the target AFR and if the pump(s) are maxed out and fuel pressure is dropping, it's going to keep the injs open longer which skews the inj DC %.
Not dismissing any other suggestions, but this only requires looking at data and doing some math. A leak down would be the next thing on my to do list if the above is all OK.
06-22-2020, 07:50 AM
#14
This is where I would put my initial focus. Without accounting for the dyno accuracy, driveline loss, etc, simple math say 210# injs with E85 @ 37%inj DC is 740fwhp and 66% is 1320fwhp. The fwhp @ 37% DC and 15psi seems reasonable, but you are not gonna gain 580fwhp going from 15psi to 24psi.You didn't mention the AFR at 24psi. If it was pig rich rich, that would inflate the inj DC. You also didn't mention fuel pump(s). If the pump(s) were maxed out at 24psi, fuel pressure would drop and inj DC would go up, which might account for the 66%.
So, knowing what pump(s) you're running and the base fuel pressure is important. AFR is also important, but keep in mind that if you are running AutoTune and/or EGO Correction, the MS3X is gonna try like hell to maintain the target AFR and if the pump(s) are maxed out and fuel pressure is dropping, it's going to keep the injs open longer which skews the inj DC %.
Not dismissing any other suggestions, but this only requires looking at data and doing some math. A leak down would be the next thing on my to do list if the above is all OK.
So, knowing what pump(s) you're running and the base fuel pressure is important. AFR is also important, but keep in mind that if you are running AutoTune and/or EGO Correction, the MS3X is gonna try like hell to maintain the target AFR and if the pump(s) are maxed out and fuel pressure is dropping, it's going to keep the injs open longer which skews the inj DC %.
Not dismissing any other suggestions, but this only requires looking at data and doing some math. A leak down would be the next thing on my to do list if the above is all OK.
The 66% was around 11.3-11.5 and 37% was around 12.8 afr iirc I'll have too post logs up today, I was too busy yesterday. I do not have ms3 correcting in boost at all. Fuel setup is twin Aem 380's, 1 constant and other kicking on around 2 or 3 psi. Both working well. Base pressure set to 43psi too take advantage of flow. I have my fuel pressure sensor but didnt have time to install it before going to dyno.
06-22-2020, 01:12 PM
#15
What is it using in terms of lb/hr for fueling? Is it going up with boost? If so you are absolutely making more power, there is just a dyno issue. Does it seem like it is driving thru the converter on the dyno? What type of dyno? How long are the pulls you are making? I have a somewhat similar set up as you do and had issues on the dyno. Turns out the new mustang software was loading up cars way too much. They were loading up my fox mustang like a dually diesel so it was blowing thru the converter bad. I'd just go to the track and test increasing boost to see if it goes faster. Dynos are great when they work right, but not everyone or even the manufacturers have them totally dialed.
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68roadrunner (06-23-2020)
06-23-2020, 10:57 AM
#16
All that data sounds fine, but missing the key one.....fuel pressure. I am pretty sure the pumps are maxed out, because the same thing happened to me. Hope I don't bore you or others with some more simple math.
The following is all based on my experience with the same pumps and injs. With 43psi base and 24psi boost, the published AEM380 flow chart says the pump flows 350lph @ 67psi. With the 2 pumps, that factors out to 1340fwhp and 66% inj DC with the Bosch 210s factor out to 1320fwhp. Pumps are maxed out! HOWEVER, 2 parallel pumps into a Y do not flow 2x the rated flow of 1 pump. With that in mind and flow loss from the hose, bends, filters, fittings, etc, I like to factor in a safety margin of between 10-15% of the calculated pump flow. My guess is the pumps maxed out at around 57% inj DC and the MS3X kept the injs open longer to maintain the AFR target. BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE. That's based on the check valves removed from the pumps. If you retained the check valves, then it's even worse.
I solved the problem by adding a BAP to the 2nd pump, fixed at 17V. Here's my suggestion. Forego the dyno and take the car to the track. Turn the boost down to about 18psi, make a pass and check the log, keeping an eye on fuel pressure and inj DC. Keep turning up the boost in small steps until you start to see a drop in fuel pressure and a rise in inj DC. No need to be too concerned if you increase the boost in small steps, and have EGO Correction, AutoTune and AFR Safety System turned on. If you want to talk about it in more detail or need some help setting up the BAP and the MS3X features, PM me. Besides, I want to talk to you about you turbo brick.
The following is all based on my experience with the same pumps and injs. With 43psi base and 24psi boost, the published AEM380 flow chart says the pump flows 350lph @ 67psi. With the 2 pumps, that factors out to 1340fwhp and 66% inj DC with the Bosch 210s factor out to 1320fwhp. Pumps are maxed out! HOWEVER, 2 parallel pumps into a Y do not flow 2x the rated flow of 1 pump. With that in mind and flow loss from the hose, bends, filters, fittings, etc, I like to factor in a safety margin of between 10-15% of the calculated pump flow. My guess is the pumps maxed out at around 57% inj DC and the MS3X kept the injs open longer to maintain the AFR target. BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE. That's based on the check valves removed from the pumps. If you retained the check valves, then it's even worse.
I solved the problem by adding a BAP to the 2nd pump, fixed at 17V. Here's my suggestion. Forego the dyno and take the car to the track. Turn the boost down to about 18psi, make a pass and check the log, keeping an eye on fuel pressure and inj DC. Keep turning up the boost in small steps until you start to see a drop in fuel pressure and a rise in inj DC. No need to be too concerned if you increase the boost in small steps, and have EGO Correction, AutoTune and AFR Safety System turned on. If you want to talk about it in more detail or need some help setting up the BAP and the MS3X features, PM me. Besides, I want to talk to you about you turbo brick.
The following 2 users liked this post by 2JZFC:
Boostedbrick (06-24-2020), tblentrprz (06-23-2020)
06-23-2020, 02:30 PM
#17
Great info! I agree FP needs to be checked.
I've seen a 3200lb car trap 180's in the 1/4 on 2 aem 380s and E85 however, and not had any issues with fuel pressure. No boost a pump either. The only note worthy thing I saw was he did not "Y" the feeds. He used 2 -8's and went all the way to the rails. As you mention though you have done the same and had issues. Also of note my single AEM380 was tapped at 520whp / 600ftlb and about 60psi total FP. I had mine regulated back at the tank with a single -8 up to factory return-less rails.
I've seen a 3200lb car trap 180's in the 1/4 on 2 aem 380s and E85 however, and not had any issues with fuel pressure. No boost a pump either. The only note worthy thing I saw was he did not "Y" the feeds. He used 2 -8's and went all the way to the rails. As you mention though you have done the same and had issues. Also of note my single AEM380 was tapped at 520whp / 600ftlb and about 60psi total FP. I had mine regulated back at the tank with a single -8 up to factory return-less rails.
06-23-2020, 08:14 PM
#18
Just to be clear, mine is a Y as shown in the pic. I feed each pump with a 10AN, the outlets are 8AN into the Y, then a single 10AN (PTFE) to another Y that splits into 2 8AN for the rails. UGH! Running 2 8ANs directly to the rails was something under consideration, along with a swingout, but I've decided not to spend anymore money on the car as I plan to sell it soon as I am able to get back behind the wheel and post a 7.xx.
Had a lot of time to think while recuperating and thought it was the wise decision. I plan to do a separate post on this so as not to sidetrack Boostedbrick's discussion. So, let's keep his discussion on track.
Had a lot of time to think while recuperating and thought it was the wise decision. I plan to do a separate post on this so as not to sidetrack Boostedbrick's discussion. So, let's keep his discussion on track.
06-23-2020, 09:50 PM
#20
Great info! I agree FP needs to be checked.
I've seen a 3200lb car trap 180's in the 1/4 on 2 aem 380s and E85 however, and not had any issues with fuel pressure. No boost a pump either. The only note worthy thing I saw was he did not "Y" the feeds. He used 2 -8's and went all the way to the rails. As you mention though you have done the same and had issues. Also of note my single AEM380 was tapped at 520whp / 600ftlb and about 60psi total FP. I had mine regulated back at the tank with a single -8 up to factory return-less rails.
I've seen a 3200lb car trap 180's in the 1/4 on 2 aem 380s and E85 however, and not had any issues with fuel pressure. No boost a pump either. The only note worthy thing I saw was he did not "Y" the feeds. He used 2 -8's and went all the way to the rails. As you mention though you have done the same and had issues. Also of note my single AEM380 was tapped at 520whp / 600ftlb and about 60psi total FP. I had mine regulated back at the tank with a single -8 up to factory return-less rails.