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Must be some serious voodoo going on in that car as the numbers don't add up. Only way I could see it done is if the car had a 16V system.
I managed almost 600whp on a single 380 on E85 WITH the check valve installed (that supposedly reduces flow). Fuel pressure didn't drop at all, I just kicked on the 2nd pump above that as a precaution. I'm not sure how high I could've actually gotten.
All that data sounds fine, but missing the key one.....fuel pressure. I am pretty sure the pumps are maxed out, because the same thing happened to me. Hope I don't bore you or others with some more simple math.
The following is all based on my experience with the same pumps and injs. With 43psi base and 24psi boost, the published AEM380 flow chart says the pump flows 350lph @ 67psi. With the 2 pumps, that factors out to 1340fwhp and 66% inj DC with the Bosch 210s factor out to 1320fwhp. Pumps are maxed out! HOWEVER, 2 parallel pumps into a Y do not flow 2x the rated flow of 1 pump. With that in mind and flow loss from the hose, bends, filters, fittings, etc, I like to factor in a safety margin of between 10-15% of the calculated pump flow. My guess is the pumps maxed out at around 57% inj DC and the MS3X kept the injs open longer to maintain the AFR target. BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE. That's based on the check valves removed from the pumps. If you retained the check valves, then it's even worse.
I solved the problem by adding a BAP to the 2nd pump, fixed at 17V. Here's my suggestion. Forego the dyno and take the car to the track. Turn the boost down to about 18psi, make a pass and check the log, keeping an eye on fuel pressure and inj DC. Keep turning up the boost in small steps until you start to see a drop in fuel pressure and a rise in inj DC. No need to be too concerned if you increase the boost in small steps, and have EGO Correction, AutoTune and AFR Safety System turned on. If you want to talk about it in more detail or need some help setting up the BAP and the MS3X features, PM me. Besides, I want to talk to you about you turbo brick.
Yep I'm absolutely gonna take it to the track friday, I've been talking to alot of people and doing lots of research, and found an excellent thread on fb that basically covered all of what it could be. I wanna go test it first and use my track numbers instead like I've always done. My fuel system consists of starting from tank first, 2 separate 10an feeds two both my pumps (below sump) from the pump outlets dual 8an into single 10an, necked down to 8an outlet. Both check valves installed.. then goes to engine bay then split with y block feeding back of rails then gets regulated after, all 8an line. I've heard of people getting real far with the 380s and it didnt seem like I was running out at all. I'll be installing my 0-150psi pressure sensor before friday because I'm curious as well Here's a couple of datalogs if you wanna look them over
nevemind it wont let me upload a .mlg
another thing ive noticed is voltage is stable at 14.5 until around peak torque if I remember right then drops to 12.5v all the way to 7500, not sure if that's gonna hurt me but probably not good. Another issue I'm dealing with is I cannot get a cam signal to save my life, so running batch fire and wasted spark, which brings up another issue.... the thread I was reading last night on fb his issue was very similar to mine and ended up being 15⁰ retarded dude to wasted spark reading. However my motor sounds to good to be that far and we verified timing already but it just has me thinking..
I ran them with the check valves to 7.81@177.x and 3,250 pounds. So about 1,420-1,440 flywheel hp. I since cut the check valves out and dropped about 12-15% duty cycle
I wonder how much is lost "with the "T's" And "Y's" everyone uses.
On paper the Walbro 450s should be king. But they just don't seem to put up the numbers... ever. Guys running 3 in-tank walbros to put down 1100whp on E85. Yet if we look at the installs the plumbing from pump to rail is usually horrible. Same with the "T" and "Y" fittings.
Last edited by Forcefed86; 06-24-2020 at 08:25 AM.
Yep I'm absolutely gonna take it to the track friday, I've been talking to alot of people and doing lots of research, and found an excellent thread on fb that basically covered all of what it could be. I wanna go test it first and use my track numbers instead like I've always done. My fuel system consists of starting from tank first, 2 separate 10an feeds two both my pumps (below sump) from the pump outlets dual 8an into single 10an, necked down to 8an outlet. Both check valves installed.. then goes to engine bay then split with y block feeding back of rails then gets regulated after, all 8an line. I've heard of people getting real far with the 380s and it didnt seem like I was running out at all. I'll be installing my 0-150psi pressure sensor before friday because I'm curious as well Here's a couple of datalogs if you wanna look them over
nevemind it wont let me upload a .mlg
another thing ive noticed is voltage is stable at 14.5 until around peak torque if I remember right then drops to 12.5v all the way to 7500, not sure if that's gonna hurt me but probably not good. Another issue I'm dealing with is I cannot get a cam signal to save my life, so running batch fire and wasted spark, which brings up another issue.... the thread I was reading last night on fb his issue was very similar to mine and ended up being 15⁰ retarded dude to wasted spark reading. However my motor sounds to good to be that far and we verified timing already but it just has me thinking..
I'd almost bet you answered your own question there with tthe voltage drop. I'd put money on the pumps not keeping up at 12v for sure. Pretty common issue. Most of the alternators (esp. remans) drop off line at higher RPM. Solution is to get a larger alter pulley/smaller crank pulley, or buy a great alternator that will charge over 20k rpm (or what ever it is that they spin up to) I know the "powerbastards" 220a alt will continue to charge to 7000ish. Have one on a buds car with factory balancer and alt pulley diameters, but they aren't cheap. Believe "2JZCF" has some experience with this issue as well. Didn't you find a 3" alt pulley Scottie? Was that a direct "bolt on" I need to toss one of those on my car as well. I have an OEM style 1 wire aftermarket "160a" alt and it still drops form 14.5 to 13.1 or so over 6500.
Where are you picking up your cam signal from? If it's from the timing cover there are wires that need swapped in most cases. Not sure why, but the little factory harness on the timing cover swaps the ground and signal I believe? You'd have to test them with a meter.
good luck! sweet ride!
Last edited by Forcefed86; 06-24-2020 at 09:44 AM.
I'd almost bet you answered your own question there with tthe voltage drop. I'd put money on the pumps not keeping up at 12v for sure. Pretty common issue. Most of the alternators (esp. remans) drop off line at higher RPM. Solution is to get a larger alter pulley/smaller crank pulley, or buy a great alternator that will charge over 20k rpm (or what ever it is that they spin up to) I know the "powerbastards" 220a alt will continue to charge to 7000ish. Have one on a buds car with factory balancer and alt pulley diameters, but they aren't cheap. Believe "2JZCF" has some experience with this issue as well. Didn't you find a 3" alt pulley Scottie? Was that a direct "bolt on" I need to toss one of those on my car as well. I have an OEM style 1 wire aftermarket "160a" alt and it still drops form 14.5 to 13.1 or so over 6500.
Where are you picking up your cam signal from? If it's from the timing cover there are wires that need swapped in most cases. Not sure why, but the little factory harness on the timing cover swaps the ground and signal I believe? You'd have to test them with a meter.
good luck! sweet ride!
Well not sure why you guys thinks it's a fuel pressure issue not saying it isnt but I seem to have plenty of fuel ...ill be installing my sensor soon and I'll know for sure but help me understand why. I have access to my uncle's 4307 if I really want too but I need to make sure it's actually dropping. My alternator is a ebay brand and somehow still works after beating the **** out of it the last 2 years. I just switched to a manual tensioner so my belt may not be tight enough.. at least I hope it's that haha. And my cam sensor is in the back, have tried 3 different sensors and just about configuration possible in the ms3. I'm gonna have to do some deeper digging on that one. Thanks for all the help and ideas so far.
Well not sure why you guys thinks it's a fuel pressure issue not saying it isnt but I seem to have plenty of fuel ...ill be installing my sensor soon and I'll know for sure but help me understand why. I have access to my uncle's 4307 if I really want too but I need to make sure it's actually dropping. My alternator is a ebay brand and somehow still works after beating the **** out of it the last 2 years. I just switched to a manual tensioner so my belt may not be tight enough.. at least I hope it's that haha. And my cam sensor is in the back, have tried 3 different sensors and just about configuration possible in the ms3. I'm gonna have to do some deeper digging on that one. Thanks for all the help and ideas so far.
What you have IMO is plenty of injector. Which is why you aren't seeing an unsteady lean AFR. As mentioned if the pressure's not there the DC or VE map has to be way out of wack to compensate. Which is why your seeing 1300+hp DC numbers at 700HP. You can tune around a fuel presure drop, esp when you have injectors that will flow tons of HP. But getting the sensor on it will tell the story. We are all just guessing because that is 1 common explanation that makes sense.
The alternator issue isn't likely related to belt slip. The issue is usually at "X" rpm the brushes tend to skip and jump and make poor contact. Esp on reman or cheap alternators. Its alternator RPM dependent. The solution is to slow down the alternator for most. A good alternator and targeting the correct alt max speed at your engine red line should be taken into consideration to fix it correctly. I was going to throw a 3" pulley on mine and hope! lol.
I also run the MS3 and have never had a cam sensor pickup issue. you have verified the 3 wires are pinned correctly? I believe the crank sensor shares the same "sensor ground" so if that works theres only 2 wires to trouble shoot. Sometimes "RF" can be an issue. are the wires shielded? Aftermarket harness? Or did you build it?
Truck pulley 7.5" divided by alternator pulley 2.75" x max RPM 7500= 20454 rpm. If I did the math correct, that's still not be safe for you. 18000 rpm is where they shut off.
Mine doesn't get turned that hard.
All the issues you are dealing with, I have experienced and dealt with.
Bad Apache and Forcefed86 hit the nail on the head except the stock alternator pulley is 2.54, so at 7500 with a stock balancer, the alternator is spinning at 22,146 rpms!! No Bueno. Not pushing BAPs, but the reason they are so effective is that Corky Bell claimed approximately 15% increase in pump flow for each addition volt. Losing voltage has the opposite effect, so if it dropped to 12.5V, then pump flow probably decreased 15%. I would target 18K rpms as the max you want to spin the alternator and if you're using a stock balancer and really spinning the engine 7,500, then even a 3" alternator will still go over 18K. If you really want to spin the engine to 7500, you really should be running something like an ATI balancer, 6.75", with the 3" alt pulley.
Another tidbit about AEM380s. Couple of years ago, AEM updated the AEM380 to AEM400 and the 400 has a substantial increase in flow. They discontinued the 380 but did not change the part #, so I am sure 380s were still being sold until the supply was exhausted. Pretty sure I have 380s since I've had mine for more than a few years.
As for that Camaro, that is impressive. Damn, must be nice to have a Dart block and aftermarket heads and not have to worry about grenading your sh*t. Didn't read the entire post, but enough to have me "wonder how much is lost "with the "T's" And "Y's" everyone uses". I'm guessing it's more than the 10-15% margin I factor in. If I had to do it over again, I would convert my cell to have a hanger with 2 Walbro F90000295 (OEM Hellcat pumps w/o the check valves) pumps with separate feeds to the rails.
Can't fault what works, that mustang of yours is flying! What did you end up with again for a pulley on the ALT? Any decent sources for a "drop on" large diameter pulley? Hell I'm literally 5 miles from billet ICT. Those guys could CNC and mass produce a pulley in no time. If I approached them with something that would sell like hot cakes and eliminate all the LS RPM cut alternator issues, I'd think they'd be all for it. I went with a factory diameter SFI pulley, The 6.75" pulley I had originally didn't do well on the street. Car ran hot and wouldn't charge well. Still have that pulley if anyone needs it. Its a pro-comp I believe. Cheapie, but SFI rated.
also FWIW I spoke to a tech at AEM about the "400lph" pump. I was told its the exact same pump but the standard for measuring the pumps out put changed. They measure it with a different fluid or pressure or something now. I still have the email I'll try to find it. It's basically a marketing gimmick to get it up to a nice round 400lph IMO.
found it...
Last edited by Forcefed86; 06-25-2020 at 07:25 AM.
I use an ATI and 3" alt pulley and the 370 I put together and tune uses a UD Powerbond and 3". Neither has a charging issues at idle or overheating, even in Orlando. However, both cars idle at 950.
So I have a cam degree wheel coming, and a 3" alternator pulley on the way as well. Fuel pressure sensor is installed and working good. Was gonna make some test hits today but looks like its gonna rain. Haven't had time to mess with my cam signal issue.. I'll keep you guys updated because nothing is worse then an unanswered thread lol Maybe this will help somebody someday.
Degree the cam to specified ICL and report back cranking compression. Tell everyone you know, dot to dot is not installing a cam per spec. It's a guess and hope, at best. Sorry to rant. What hp gain per psi?
Thanks for the update. Making progress and have a good plan. Sorting out the cam signal should allow you to get the best injector timing/performance. Keep pressin on!
So I have a cam degree wheel coming, and a 3" alternator pulley on the way as well. Fuel pressure sensor is installed and working good. Was gonna make some test hits today but looks like its gonna rain. Haven't had time to mess with my cam signal issue.. I'll keep you guys updated because nothing is worse then an unanswered thread lol Maybe this will help somebody someday.
*Big update*
Issue has been solved however not confirmed yet but it all makes sense now. I talked to john bewley on the phone and long story short I'd have to rev to 9800rpm to make any kinda of power with this cam. It's just way too damn big and the eq1 intake makes it even worse. This cam belongs in a 427+ making big power. This is why it's not making any torque or power, its bleeding everything off and this is why cranking compression is so low. I had a feeling lol...
So I have a new cam on the way and I cant freaking wait!!!
John knows his stuff and told me like it was.
06-23-2020, 10:28 PM
