Up front - I'm not a tuner except for some basics such as getting car to idle and getting the auto to shift for driveability under 50 mph (I've never messed with line pressure etc. or torque management).

Please review my tune. IMO some thing don't look right in the tune. Car was dynoed on an eddy current DynoJet.

Engine is a TSP LQ9 370 with PRC 225 heads with 68 cc chambers (CR is about 9.5). Just out of breakin with less than 2K miles if that.
Texas Speed blower cam 227/234 600/600 114 + 4 LSA.
ARH 1 7/8 headeres with catted J pipe back to an I pipe merged into a Magnaflow catback.
Performabuilt Level III 4l60e. Just refreshed by Performabuilt.
Yank 3450 blower converter. Just cleaned and refreshed by Yank.
Procharger D1SC with an 8.65/3.9 pulley combo.
Procharger 26X12x4.5 FMIC.
Procharger big red bypass valve.
Procharger D1 SC hat.
K & N 3.5 X 9 cone type wet filter.
Three inch aluminum piping.
Aster Bracket. Green Belt HD.
Racetronix 510 LPH dual pumps w/dual harness. Second pump fires at 4 psi from a Hobbs switch.
Aeromotive 1:1 FPR.
Deka 80 flow test Signature Series injectors.
HP Custom 2bar SD tune (98 pcm)

On first dyno session car made 598 RWHP at 8 lbs of boost.
On second dyno session car made 624 RWHP at 10.5 lbs of boost. Torque - 749 lbs. 24 RWHP increase.

The reason I am questioning the tune is because:

On the first tune he didn't trust the values that were in the fuel tables. They were set up for Mototron 60 injectors. The IFR table was setup with 72.1 in all kPa cells in the IFR table. I had set the FPR with the vacuum hose disconnected while setting fuel pressure to 58 psi. On idle he noticed the fuel pressure was less than 58 psi - about 43-45 psi at idle with the vacuum line connected.

He said it should be 58. So he started the car and with the vacuum line connected reset the FP back to 58 psi. He also changed all values in the IFR table and instead entered the sloped values one would add if there was a stock fuel regulator running at a static 58 PSI. Other tables from the injector spec sheet were not copied over or from some other spec sheet.

I stressed that I disagreed. His reply was that he has been tuning cars for at least 20 years and that is the way he has always done it. End of story.

I relented and let him continue to tune the car on the dyno. During that dyno session and tune car made 600 rwhp at 8lbs of boost with 21 degrees of timing.

Dyno session 1:

On his first tune it was only making barely 8 lbs of boost. To up boost I decided to upgrade the crank pulley from 7.65 to 8.65. I left the 3.9 blower pulley the same. I also verified there were no connection/silicone leaks. Not sure if part of the boost issue was intercooler related I replaced the FMIC with the Camaro ATI intercooler. RPM belt was too short because of larger 8.65 crank pulley so for time being replaced belt with K080537HD green belt.

Dyno Session 2:

Thinking I would get more boost and a little bit more rwhp I returned for another tune. B4 the tune we replaced the 60 series injectors with the Deka 80's. However he did the same thing again and loaded the sloped values into the IFR table. He did not change the other tables.

Another issue is timing at 21 degrees even though boost is almost 11 PSI. If we use the 28 rule as a baseline, IMO, timing should be about 16 - 17 degrees to be safe. I questioned the timing on the prior tune. His reply was that it would only make power if he kept increasing the timing. It was down around 500 rwhp on a few pulls until he started adding timing. Unfortunately I don't have video of the first session. On this 2nd session he did a total of 11 pulls.

The other thing that looks odd is the torque. It is making 150 lbs more of torque than RWHP. One one pull up to 4K the graph show 600 lbs of torque. At 2K. Is that possible with a 3450 converter?

Dyno session video:


BTW: I have not and will not get into boost before I am sure that this is a safe tune.

 

I wouldnt go back to that tuner. If you set the fuel pressure to 58 without the vacuum line connected, then with the engine running and the vacuum line hooked up you should NOT see 58 psi on the gauge. Your IFR table should also be straight not sloped if you have a boost referenced FPR. Is there any knock at 21 degrees? What's the AFR? Does it make the same power at 18 degrees? Was the converter locked on the dyno? You may see a torque spike if not due to the converter. Tuner sounds really sketch and I didn't even open the tune.

 

That's what the tuner at FIC said after calling to verify what tables should be changed and what values to use in IFR table with a boost referenced FPR. I can't post his description of the tuner here. For this injector it should be 92.411 in all kPAcells in the IFR table.

He said you would be chasing the correct AFR because the PCM is using an inflated value from the IFR table while at the same time the FPR is increasing pressure and fuel as engine RPM increases from idle to WOT based on the vacuum signal from the intake. At 80 kPA the sloped value is 101.233 when it should be 92.411.

When you have time please take a look at the spark table. There are cells where the timing is up to 26 degrees when in the midrange rpms. The timing is crazy when I compare it to previous tunes running the same amount of boost (on a Mustang dyno - not that the dyno should make a difference). Most of the same cells are down in the 15,16, and 17 degree range. And it was making good power (565 rwhp) before the pulley changes.

Thankfully I haven't driven the car much (couple hundred miles city driving) and have stayed out of boost.

I should probably pull a few plugs and see what they look like.

AFR on the dyno graph was 12.5. I haven't had a chance to do some data logging. A gm tech is going to use his Tech II to data log and look for KR etc. I can also data log with my AEM serial cable thru HP.

I don't know enough about other tables to look at to see if KR has been turned off or reduced. That's why I have tuners who are supposed to know what they are doing tune this car. Too much invested to do it myself and make mistakes.

One more rant: He is supposed to be the best in town (there are only two) and his lot always has chargers and camaros in the lot waiting for tunes.

Next tuner is over 200 mile drive - KCMO or OKCOK.

Some have said to get a remote tune but doubtful I can rent a dyno for remote tuning and too far to drive out of the city where is it safe to tune on a hiway.

Not sure if he locked the converter. If not that might explain lower than expected rwhp and why he kept adding timing to get results. Just a guess. I can ask but now just water under the bridge.

 

[QUOTE=dlandsvZ28;20366263] I had set the FPR with the vacuum hose disconnected while setting fuel pressure to 58 psi. On idle he noticed the fuel pressure was less than 58 psi - about 43-45 psi at idle with the vacuum line connected.
[QUOTE=dlandsvZ28;20366263]

I set my FP this way and everything is working great. Have the vacuum line disconnected from the fuel pressure regulator , Capped off the vacuum ports on the intake, start car and set FPR to 58psi, Hook up vacuum line to FPR, the vacuum of the running engine brings fuel pressure down to 43-45 PSI. Now when I see 10psi of boost, my fuel preasure goes up to 55psi, when I hit 15psi, fuel pressure is around 60-61psi.

 

If you slope your AFR when youre boost referenced and dont do all the other fuel tables, it wont run right and your maf curve or VE table will look like crap. I looked at your timing table which is WAY to high unless youre running straight E85. Im ugessing your Speed Density? He's got a 2 bar VE but the spark table only goes up to 1g/sec? Doesn't seem right. You said AFR on the dyno was 12.5 but your target AFR was ~11.6, that's not close. You are better off learning to tune it yourself at this point if there's no one else within driving distance.

PS....he's got it set to pull massive timing if it detects ANY knock. Looks like a CYA.

 

Best advice in this thread.
Last year, I bought HP tuners and purchased a HP tuning course and street tuned my car and then dyno tuned it. PM me if you would like to know the course I bought.

 

I know you said you aren't hip to letting someone remote tune but Pat G remote tuned my 02 SS six speed car and when he was done, I put it on the dyno and it made 689whp/674wtq all by tuning on the street, pump gas only.
That SBE car lasted for years until I sold it so I wouldn't rule him out, he's excellent.

 

PS....he's got it set to pull massive timing if it detects ANY knock. Looks like a CYA.[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't you want to set up the low octane table to pull timing if it detects knock?
I feel like if you're getting knock you have other issues?
I'm just learning to tune with HP Tuners myself so don't torch me lol.

 

Wouldn't you want to set up the low octane table to pull timing if it detects knock?
I feel like if you're getting knock you have other issues?
I'm just learning to tune with HP Tuners myself so don't torch me lol.[/QUOTE]
The difference between the high and low octanr tables was like 1 degree lol. The knock retard table had it set to pull like 20 degrees lol. It's just the wrong way to tune. All around that tuner is hacking it.

 

I checked some stock tunes 98,99, and 2000 and each spark table only extends to 1.0 g/sec. However some later model GM tunes in Maslic's Tuning Guide extend out to 1.36 g/sec.

As for pulling timing - he never touched that table. Those values were imported from the the last tune done in EFI Live. But looking at a 98 stock tune, 10 degrees of timing is also pulled. Just speculating but it appears some of the past tunes on this car didn't touch some tables when compared to my stock tune. That was clearly obvious when I viewed the Injector Offset table. The Offset table was left the same when 42 lb injectors were installed and when 60 lb injectors were installed.

So when someone tells you they have 20 years of experience tuning it doesn't mean diddly. 2021 - 20 years is equal to 2001. The LS1 PCM was in the 97 Corvette as I recall. They probably learned on LSEdit to tune the PCM and have never changed what they learned back then and refuse to change their knowledge base with the times and advances in technology. Somehere Dave Steck posted essentially the same thing. If a tuner is still tuning based on what they knew 10 years ago - they are out touch. Some engineers fall into that category as well.

Thanks to those who posted to confirm my doubts. Now I need to find a new tuner and not blow another $1300.

 

I can only tell you that I'm self taught and learned as much as I could from guys like Greg Banish, and I've fixed tunes from some of the biggest names in the LS tuning world. Best thing I did was learn to do it myself which also helped friends around me who needed tuning.

 

The difference between the high and low octanr tables was like 1 degree lol. The knock retard table had it set to pull like 20 degrees lol. It's just the wrong way to tune. All around that tuner is hacking it.[/QUOTE]
That concerns me because when I started poking around in the tune in my car, the low octane table only had 1 degree of difference compared to the high octane table.
I've now got my low octane table setup to pull out 8-10 but that's all as a safety measure.
Which Knock table are you referring to? Knock Retard, Burst Knock Retard or Maximum Knock Retard?

 

That concerns me because when I started poking around in the tune in my car, the low octane table only had 1 degree of difference compared to the high octane table.
I've now got my low octane table setup to pull out 8-10 but that's all as a safety measure.
Which Knock table are you referring to? Knock Retard, Burst Knock Retard or Maximum Knock Retard?[/QUOTE]
Your high vs. low octane table really depends on how good of a tuner your are and if you use good gas. Technically they can match if your knock retard table accounts for knock and you rarely/never see knock. Knock retard is typically set to pull 4-8 degrees max depending on rpm. I disable burst knock as its just stupid lol. And I typically increase the knock recovery rate so you can see exactly where the PCM is picking up knock and its not lazy to add timing back in.

 

Thanks dnnspider. I appreciate your input and for all of the contributions you have made on this forum by sharing your knowledge and expertise. So many who learn the tuning craft glean what they can from forums like this and from contributors as yourself. But then move on never to be heard from again. I am a retired programmer and there are those in that profession who do the same. Always taking but never sharing and giving back to the community. So I hope you and others continue to contribute.

As for me attempting to learn how to tune my car. If it was a simple H/C LT's mild engine NA build I think I could make a good start in attempting to learn how tune. But this car is boosted and IMO simply not safe to tune on the street.

A good example of what can go wrong when one doesn't understand a system well enough to operate it is the methanol system (won't mention the name). A GM tech installed this system on my car. The tech has a 30 year career running drag bikes and his 8 second Chevelle. I trust him. His Dr son runs an eight second Camaro.

Because the kit did not come with a check valve, methanol siphoned into the intake pipes and pooled in the IM. On startup the engine went kaboom. I don't blame the tech. What we both he didn't understand were the consequences of the unique scenarios that can occur which can lead to a catastrophe when a check valve isn't installed in the system. It was a $13k mistake and I take full responsibility for it. It is what it is.

First generation catch cans didn't have check valves either which is perfectly acceptable with NA in most cases. But their design with only two ports doesn't work for boosted applications. It's only after one learns that pressure in the intake transitions from vacuum to positive pressure that a two port tiny catch can doesn't work with boost.

Fortunately I learned the concept of intake pressure transition when I learned how a boost referenced FPR works. It was only after that learning experience that I learned that my dual catch system was installed wrong. It was correct for NA but not for boost.

Obviously, my last tuner still hasn't learned how a boost referenced FPR works.

My point is that when you learn as you go, there can be serious consequences along the way.

Enough ranting.

I plan to remap the spark table to reduce timing in a lot of areas with some help from a tuner so I feel that it is safe even when not in boost. I plan to be talk to tuners who remote tune. Perhaps it isn't nearly as unsafe as what I expect.

Will post back with results later when I find someone.

Note: Although this video doesn't address catch cans or isn't related to tuning, it does show the amount of crankcase pressure that can artificially enter the crankcase, combined with real crankcase pressure if the catch can system isn't properly plumbed and vented when boost enters the system. Ever see the dipstick pop out on boost or blow the oil filter cap off? Do you see oil on the impeller on your D1SC, F1 etc. It is contaminated with oil more than likely because ATI didn't provide the correct plumbing to account for when the IM transitions from vacuum to boost.

 

Yeah my Knock Retard table is set to 24 degrees down low all the way up to 44 degrees in the mid range and top end...
To be fair the tuner never finished the tune because the transmission went belly up after the second pull so he may have changed these settings.

 

So when Pat G tuned my last car he had me putt around, low speed and idle stuff while taking note of the wide band reading.
Then he had me do some part throttle pulls to 4,000 and 5,000 rpm while noting AFR and watching for knock retard on my EFI Live hand held.
Then it was full pulls on the highway, these you plan for, 3rd and 4th gear out to redline.
He had it nailed in a couple outings with the full pulls, AFR was 11.5-11.6, I feel like Pat's done enough of these boosted LS cars that he knows where he needs to be.
Pat will also continue tuning until YOU are satisfied with how the car drives, he's a great guy and would definitely use him again.

 

Thanks for the input. I think I have found a tuner. He tuned my car before but was back in '11. At the time he was only tuning with EFI Live. Last time I talked to him (2018) he still had not converted over to HP - only EFI Live. Since I had converted the 98 OS to the 98 HP SD custom he had to pass on a retune. But talking to him today, now HP is all he uses + the dyno is a Mustang Dyno. So will clean up the current tune next week and retune and dyno next week. Its not quite the long drive - only about 100 miles - compared to a trip to KCMO or OKCOK.

 

Your high vs. low octane table really depends on how good of a tuner your are and if you use good gas. Technically they can match if your knock retard table accounts for knock and you rarely/never see knock. Knock retard is typically set to pull 4-8 degrees max depending on rpm. I disable burst knock as its just stupid lol. And I typically increase the knock recovery rate so you can see exactly where the PCM is picking up knock and its not lazy to add timing back in.[/QUOTE]

FWIW - Spark>Retard> Maximum Knock Retard on my tune was all zero's for both tables > [vs RPM(PE) and vs Map (non-PE)]. For now I reset to stock values.

Recovery rate adjustment makes sense plus perhaps even more sense since my 98 PCM is slower compared to a 411 pcm.

On the Knock Retard table, values have been changed from stock with the largest increases in cells from 0 to 2400 rpm. So someone has at least touched that table.

Maslic reduces timing by 5 degrees in the low octane table compared to his starting values at 15 degrees in the high octane table as he starts the tuning sessions as safe. Then adjusts accordingly in the low octane table dependent on his final results in the high octane table.

 

FWIW - Spark>Retard> Maximum Knock Retard on my tune was all zero's for both tables > [vs RPM(PE) and vs Map (non-PE)]. For now I reset to stock values.

Recovery rate adjustment makes sense plus perhaps even more sense since my 98 PCM is slower compared to a 411 pcm.

On the Knock Retard table, values have been changed from stock with the largest increases in cells from 0 to 2400 rpm. So someone has at least touched that table.

Maslic reduces timing by 5 degrees in the low octane table compared to his starting values at 15 degrees in the high octane table as he starts the tuning sessions as safe. Then adjusts accordingly in the low octane table dependent on his final results in the high octane table.[/QUOTE]
Interesting, I'm starting with an incomplete modified tune so I don't have a stock tune to reference, if anyone has a stock 1999 Camaro tune they can share with me to review, that would be great.
I pulled 8-10 degrees out of my low octane table because there was only a 1 degree difference in the upper rpm range.
Knock retard starts at 24 and pulls out as much as 44 degrees in the mid to upper rpm range which seems way off to me, unless its because its a multiplier.
My Burst Knock is set to zero so I'm assuming its disabled, I'm thinking I'll change the knock retard table to start at four and end at eight in the mid to upper rpm range but am unsure.
Which table will the PCM reference first, the low octane or Knock retard, which ever one is lowest?
What did you change the recovery rate to? Mine's set at .125 from 2,400 to 3,600 and .104 from 3,600 to max rpm.
My apologies if I'm hijacking your thread, if you'd like me to start another just say so. ; )