Terminator X Traction control - Boost or timing?
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Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Terminator X Traction control - Boost or timing? Now that I've figured out that I can have some rudimentary traction control for free using the tables in my Terminator X, I was curious what opinions people would have on whether to control wheelspin with a boost cut or timing retard. I don't particularly like the idea of a timing retard because it puts a lot of extra heat into the exhaust, but I'd listen to arguments for doing it if it could be done right. A boost cut seems like it would do a great job of killing power, yet I don't see a lot of info on using it. Most of the videos I've seen on YouTube advise to use timing retard. Any reason why?
Obviously, this traction control isn't the best set up, but I'd like to play around with it before I spring for something more advanced. Any opinions would be welcome!
Obviously, this traction control isn't the best set up, but I'd like to play around with it before I spring for something more advanced. Any opinions would be welcome!
Most say to use timing retard, because they already have the boost portion under control in one way or another. However, timing retard is a small amount of control, so it won't make up for having an extra 10lbs of boost your tires can't handle, lol. It really is a matter of finding which tool needs to be applied at any given time. Your worries are correct, however. Riding the timing retard for traction control for an excessive amount of time is damaging.
Timing can be "instantaneous" while boost is slower to bring back in.. So you can cut timing quickly to catch the tire and ramp it back in much quicker..
I think you play with your boost curve to keep it close to hooked then you can use timing to tweak as conditions change.. You still need a reasonable tune to match the conditions, traction control in my opinion just lets you put a bit more power in case it will take it in portions of the track
I think you play with your boost curve to keep it close to hooked then you can use timing to tweak as conditions change.. You still need a reasonable tune to match the conditions, traction control in my opinion just lets you put a bit more power in case it will take it in portions of the track
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Grand Rapids, Michigan
I'm trying to do things the hard way, which is to make a 700-800 RWHP car hook and go fast on 18" drag radials, which is compounded by the fact that it's a stick shift. On my 1st shakedown outing at the track, I was really surprised that aside from the launch, it held all the way down the track on regular radials. Of course, I'm still only street tuned and upon further inspection, my timing table is pretty conservative. I had help setting up the base tune and the more I've looked at it, the more I realize that it's a ways from being at full power. So I'm looking to set some things up over the winter ( signal converters for speed sensors so my Terminator X can track front and rear wheel speed ) and a full set of coilovers w/ a anti-roll bar out back. I wanted to work with traction control to help when needed, especially on the street where this car spends most of it's time. I can see why using boost isn't the best idea, due to the lag time. JimTA, what you said does make sense - I know the tune has to be pretty spot on, so that traction control only intervenes every so often. Riding it all the way down track is a recipe for hurting things.
I found the factory wheel speed sensors did not give a decent reading until 11-14mph so they were not reliable for launch traction control. I fabbed up a ring to use Motion Raceworks active wheel speed sensor and much better as I get a reading from first movement. But I found I really like the traction control mid track and it takes less adjustment to get it back in shape.. My butt puckers when the spinning starts at 100+ mph..
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Did you try using one of these to convert your signal? https://sirhclabs.com/product/cortex...ensor-adapter/ That's what I planned on using. My integration harness has a VSS splitter so I was going to tap into that for rear wheel speed. I too would like high speed control, I've felt my Camaro get loose at the top of 3rd gear and I did NOT like it. I can easily add a driveshaft sensor, Strange makes pinion yokes that can have a reluctor wheel attached to them. Do you have any pics of how you set up your front wheel speed sensor?
I am running dominator so I use signal directly. For rear I am using 4l80e VDS.
I have TBM brakes on front and cut an aluminum disc, installed with the rotor and put 16 bolts in it to read. Don't have any pics handy
I have TBM brakes on front and cut an aluminum disc, installed with the rotor and put 16 bolts in it to read. Don't have any pics handy
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Now that I've figured out that I can have some rudimentary traction control for free using the tables in my Terminator X, I was curious what opinions people would have on whether to control wheelspin with a boost cut or timing retard. I don't particularly like the idea of a timing retard because it puts a lot of extra heat into the exhaust, but I'd listen to arguments for doing it if it could be done right. A boost cut seems like it would do a great job of killing power, yet I don't see a lot of info on using it. Most of the videos I've seen on YouTube advise to use timing retard. Any reason why?
Obviously, this traction control isn't the best set up, but I'd like to play around with it before I spring for something more advanced. Any opinions would be welcome!
Obviously, this traction control isn't the best set up, but I'd like to play around with it before I spring for something more advanced. Any opinions would be welcome!
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Joined: Dec 2017
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You can go pretty far on a 18" radial. A lot of the ZR1 guys run 325s or 345s on 18" wheels and make 1000+ with 800-900wtq. Couple of my friends went to the track a few weekends ago and ran bottom 9s at 160-165mph on 18" wheels. The Viper guys put down 2000+ whp on 18" Toyo Rs, on the street.
As far the question in the OP, timing is going to be faster and more reliable. Tune the boost curve first and then use the traction control to keep it in check. Using traction control as a bandaid for a bad boost curve is where you are going to have problems hurting things. If you have the TermX Max, you could even add in some TB modulation with the timing to help.
I run that SIRCH converter on my TermX max, with the factory abs sensor. It "works" but i haven't gotten a clean enough signal to actually attempt to use it for traction control. I need to rewire it and see how it looks.
As far the question in the OP, timing is going to be faster and more reliable. Tune the boost curve first and then use the traction control to keep it in check. Using traction control as a bandaid for a bad boost curve is where you are going to have problems hurting things. If you have the TermX Max, you could even add in some TB modulation with the timing to help.
I run that SIRCH converter on my TermX max, with the factory abs sensor. It "works" but i haven't gotten a clean enough signal to actually attempt to use it for traction control. I need to rewire it and see how it looks.
Steve Morris did a pretty indepth video on this topic. I don't know how recent it is.
He also did a video on a engine where a customer of his was doing exactly what Nic D said don't do.
Relying completely on the traction control to get you down the track, it will destroy some ****.
He also did a video on a engine where a customer of his was doing exactly what Nic D said don't do.
Relying completely on the traction control to get you down the track, it will destroy some ****.
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Grand Rapids, Michigan
I watched that video, so I know exactly what you're referring to. I know Steve personally, so I might have to pick his brain as to what he thinks would be a good setup for my car. So far, it's looking like installing Motion Raceworks sensors front and rear will be a better method than attempting to use the factory ABS sensors and pulling a signal from those. I'll avoid using a boost cut on the traction control, it makes sense that it wouldn't recover as quickly. I just need to get the car sorted out further and have these things in place for when I'm finally able to start dialing in everything.
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I found the factory wheel speed sensors did not give a decent reading until 11-14mph so they were not reliable for launch traction control. I fabbed up a ring to use Motion Raceworks active wheel speed sensor and much better as I get a reading from first movement. But I found I really like the traction control mid track and it takes less adjustment to get it back in shape.. My butt puckers when the spinning starts at 100+ mph..
- Most factory ABS sensors are designed to work in conjunction only with the ABS module itself, meaning the signals are not really adequate without being boosted and filtered which is all built into the ABS module.
- The Holley inputs don't really have good filtering nor does the software have the ability to adjust things like custom thresholds, hysteresis, and debounce.
You can try to use something like the VR to hall effect converter from SIRHC Labs to feed the Holley a better signal that it can deal with or you can try to boost the signal using an op amp circuit of some sorts. People still have mixed results with this and it isn't necessarily reliable so the alternative is to just run some good active sensors and add a reluctor to the hub. Even with something like a Motec or Haltech where you can setup custom tables for the input to help smooth the signal and ignore noise it can still be a pain in the *** to get a reliable signal input at lower speeds with VR sensors.
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,890
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From: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Yeah, the more I've read up on it, I'm just going to go with a couple of Motion Raceworks sensors and mount one on the passenger side front wheel, and the other on the pinion yoke.
The key to traction control is good driveshaft speed and or wheel speed inputs and lots of data. When we ran a car in no prep and in the street it took us a lot of data to get it dialed in. What works in one car wont work in another car, what worked at on a propped track wont work on the street or no prep. We run a mixture of driveshaft speed and also wheel speed slip % but also run different launch and boost curves on top of that.
If its 1/2 racing on runways we run only wheel speed slip % traction control due to how slick they are.
If its 1/2 racing on runways we run only wheel speed slip % traction control due to how slick they are.