Ben99Z28

Ok, here's the deal...I have a 99 Z28 and want to get the ATI Procharger, but still have a few questions before I place the order:

1)I do NOT plans on getting any head/cam or rebuild motor in the future, I do NOT want to run over 5psi, and I want to keep my stock motor under 450~460rwhp, so should I stick with P1SC or upgrade to D1SC? I know the D1SC would run lower rpm at the same amount of boost, thus less heat or whatnot, but is P1SC really sucks so bad that I better off spend the extra $300 to upgrade it?
2)I want a quiet compeller
3)I know ATI said the stock 26# injectors is fine with the basic kits, but I'm still going to upgrade the stocker to SVO 30#...better safe than sorry, now...can I use the MAFT to tune/recalibrate instead reprogram the PCM??
4)Since I'm going to upgrade injectors anyway, should I better off just get the tuner kit then get a better inline fuel pump instead?
5)Did any of you had problem with the FMU? and what was wrong with it?
6)Can you guys show me some of your atap numbers, mods on your car, psi you're running, and hp/tq it puts down??


Ok, I know you all will highly recommend the Golden West Stage2 kits and I know it is great and all that, but the fact is...I'm not rich like most of y'all and I DO NOT have $5500, even IF I do...I still want to keep the car at, or under 450rwhp. The Z is my daily driver and I want some reliable hp/tq, not some fancy number that I'll have to risk blowing up the motor or drivetrain, I could careless about the 1/4 mile ET, will run the car on the street full time and only going to race it once awhile.

Any recommendations or helps would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: Catfish ]</p>

Ben99Z28

[quote]Originally posted by XLR8NSS:
<strong>

3) If you don't plan on any other upgrades the 30# injectors will probably be fine and you can tune them using a MAFT. They'll act like 36# injectors at our fuel pressure. They'll probably be running some pretty high duty cycles though. <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0">

</strong><hr></blockquote>


Thanks for taking the time to reply <img src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> Well, if the 36# injectors will run high duty cycles, then I can only imagine the stock 26# will be at 100% full duty cycles <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0"> <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0">
I know the Stage2 is good and everything, but I can get the tuner kit for $3800, I would think $1700 is more than enough money to get bigger injectors + fuel pump w/o tuning. SVO 30# injectors only cost $220~$250, fuel pump...probably $300? and I assume I'll be set at around $4300, don't see the need of tuning since I can lean out the car with MAFT after the injectors/fuel pump installed, again...I do not want to run higher than 5psi of boost, and my mod will stop right here as well, have no desire to get my car above 450rwhp and I could careless about everyone else outrun me at the track or on the street <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
Your atap looks good, but why is the timing so low though? <img src="images/icons/confused.gif" border="0">
BTW, exactly how and why did your motor blew up? what happened?

Black LS1 T/A

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Catfish:
<strong>

have no desire to get my car above 450rwhp and I could careless about everyone else outrun me at the track or on the street
</strong>

Why are you bothering with a Supercharger? <img src="images/icons/confused.gif" border="0">

<strong>
Your atap looks good, but why is the timing so low though?</strong>

Questions like that is EXACTLY why you need someone like GWP to provide your system! <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">

We want you to succeed. But I promise you, if you keep your timing high at N/A levels (and other pitfalls you haven't thought of yet), you won't keep your motor long.

Think about it... the knowledge you are gleaning from folk who are answering questions on this board is derived from the knowledge we obtain from good customer service like GWP's. <img src="graemlins/gr_judge.gif" border="0" alt="[judgement]" />

This question was asked of me on another board, and is similar to yours:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is the ATI stage II kit so expensive? The tuner kit is around $3700.00, $350.00 for the Blower upgrade, Tuning - $450.00, Injectors - $400.00 and a fuel pump - $125.00. That comes to around $5025.00 what is the extra $600.00 or so dollars for???

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I got it, the Tuner kit was over 4-grand. The price of the kit is decreasing. If it costs less for them to get the kit to you, their price for Stage II might come down.
Where do you get your prices for the pump from?
Anyway, even though I'm sure they think you are a nice guy and all , they want to get paid for putting the right stuff together for you and for all that time they will give you helping you get it right. And there's the little matter of all the time they've invested in figuring out what will work. They've put together a sytem that works utilizing many years of collective racing and mechanic experience.

I got another retune to dial it in better, free of charge. There have been items GWP's sent me to make the kit do what I want.

I have to tell you, once I got the kit, the customer service has been second to none.

Jason takes the time to explain technicalities of the kit to me. I've gotten priceless recommendations from GWP on how to make it faster, or make it safer...

You could buy a kit and wing it alone, calling the manufacturer for help when you need it... and they do a good job of support. But GWP puts a personal touch to it that makes you feel secure with your purchase.

I'm sure I've bugged the hel out of them, but they keep ansering my questions.

I've emailed them Autotap logs, dyno sheets. Within and day or two, most times the same day, they take a look and give me their analysis.

They make me feel they want to keep my engine together almost as bad as I do. When we succeed on a new milestone at the track of whatever, they seem as excited as I do on how it ran. I've called Jason AFTER leaving the track and told him my times... he asked me to call.

It's almost like having your own racing team.

Small price to pay for $600.00.

XLR8NSS

iTrader: (4)

[quote]Originally posted by Catfish:
<strong>

Your atap looks good, but why is the timing so low though? <img src="images/icons/confused.gif" border="0">
BTW, exactly how and why did your motor blew up? what happened?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well I have a 2001. The stock timing when I was N/A would only get up to around 25*. This is normal on the '01s because they have more advance ground into the cams from the factory. After I installed the blower I lost some more timing. I think it was caused by the high Ltrims that came from the blower installation.

Hmmmm....I haven't blown my motor up yet and hopefully it will live a long and powerful life. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> Where'd you here I blew it up. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">

If you want a good inline pump get the big Aeromotive. Jegs has it for around $290. Then you'll have to get fittings and stuff to hook it up. You also may want to think about getting a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator. It should make tuning much easier since it would hold your fuel pressure constant even when boost was present. One thing, if you use the MAFT to lean out the injectors you will see an increase in timing. Extra timing is not something you want with forced induction so watch(on Atap or equivalent) and listen for knock if you go this route.

Take it easy. <img src="graemlins/gr_chug.gif" border="0" alt="[chug]" />

Johnnie

Black LS1 T/A

don't see the need of tuning since I can lean out the car with MAFT after the injectors/fuel pump installed

Another simplistic assumption that will have you disappointed when you get around to trying this.

To spend $1000 less, you are willing to get a $4500 system and tune it based on faulty assumptions. When you prove them incorrect yourself, assuming you don't ruin your car in the proceess, all you will end up doing is spending MORE money to get it where you think you want it, and throwing items that proved to be useless to you in the tool bin... or selling it for less than you paid for it.

Don't get mad if I give you some hard advice:

If you want a SC for the sake of having one and don't care how fast it is, whether you can beat anyone at the track or in the street, or how much power it puts out... get a basic kit, get the one that looks the best to you or otherwise trips your trigger and DON'T tune it!

Get a standard kit that will run with the predefined tuning and call it a day. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">

Ben99Z28

People tend to get greedy with boost, and in this case....I have a question for you High Tenor, since the Goldern West Stage2 system is so much better than the POS basic kits, then may I ask approximately how many hp/tq does it has over the POS one? let me guess....40~50rwhp? well....sounds like a good deal to me, BUT...are you running on stock bottom end or has it already been rebuilt with forged pistons and the whole nine yard? if you're still running on stock bottom end with the power you're making(480rwhp), then honestly I would love to see how long can your motor lats, with that kind of hardcore stress it has to goes through, do you really think the fragile cast pistons could handle it for long? Well...you'd probably have tons of cash laying around in the bank waiting to rebuild IF or WHEN it blow up, unfortunately I don't.
If the basic kit is so weak and has so much flaws that it needs Goldern West to do the upgrade for them, then GW must know their stuff MUCH better than ATI's engineer?? <img src="images/icons/confused.gif" border="0"> and may I ask exactly what GW has to reprogram with their tuning package? lemme guess....a/f and timing?
You'd asked why am i bothering with supercharger, the answer is...I will be satisfied and can live with 430~rwhp for as long as the car can hold, which is still better than running the way it is now at 340rwhp.
So as far as I'm concern, the stage1 or tuner is pretty much a poorman kits right? but it fits my budget and I run what I can afford, I'll do more research and get more opinions, if the stage1 doesn't worth a damn and it's so much worst than the GW stage2 like you said...then I guess I should save the $4000 and go H/C.

XLR8NSS

iTrader: (4)

[quote]Originally posted by Catfish:
<strong>People tend to get greedy with boost, and in this case....I have a question for you High Tenor, since the Goldern West Stage2 system is so much better than the POS basic kits, then may I ask approximately how many hp/tq does it has over the POS one? let me guess....40~50rwhp? well....sounds like a good deal to me, BUT...are you running on stock bottom end or has it already been rebuilt with forged pistons and the whole nine yard? if you're still running on stock bottom end with the power you're making(480rwhp), then honestly I would love to see how long can your motor lats, with that kind of hardcore stress it has to goes through, do you really think the fragile cast pistons could handle it for long? Well...you'd probably have tons of cash laying around in the bank waiting to rebuild IF or WHEN it blow up, unfortunately I don't.
If the basic kit is so weak and has so much flaws that it needs Goldern West to do the upgrade for them, then GW must know their stuff MUCH better than ATI's engineer?? <img src="images/icons/confused.gif" border="0"> and may I ask exactly what GW has to reprogram with their tuning package? lemme guess....a/f and timing?
You'd asked why am i bothering with supercharger, the answer is...I will be satisfied and can live with 430~rwhp for as long as the car can hold, which is still better than running the way it is now at 340rwhp.
So as far as I'm concern, the stage1 or tuner is pretty much a poorman kits right? but it fits my budget and I run what I can afford, I'll do more research and get more opinions, if the stage1 doesn't worth a damn and it's so much worst than the GW stage2 like you said...then I guess I should save the $4000 and go H/C.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Let me go ahead and address a few of your concerns.

First, I think you'll be fine with the stage I kit. It's not a bad kit. In fact if you don't plan on doing much else to the car its fine.

The reason I'm stepping up to the stage II kit is because I want to put on headers, cutout and a converter. The motor will spend its time in the upper rpm range and I didn't want to rely on the FMU for fuel supply. Since I got the upgrade kit I went ahead and got a different pulley also. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">

The programming that comes with the stage II kit can include pretty much anything you want it to. I'm having tq management taken out(I want to put in a shift kit) as well as the rear O2 sensors.(this way I can sell my O2 simulators). The main thing they program for though is the bigger injectors and timing.(as far as I know)

I assume you want to make a decent amount of power without worrying about driveability. In that case I would say that a super/turbo charger is a good way to go. Stock driveability until you put the loud pedal down. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> <img src="graemlins/camaro.gif" border="0" alt="[Chevrolet]" />

Take care.

Johnnie

Black LS1 T/A

People tend to get greedy with boost

True, and with a lot of other car parts, too.

better than the POS basic kits

Dude... I never called the other kits POS.
I call you taking a good basic system and dicking around with it to try to turn it into a Stage II system dangerous.


are you running on stock bottom end or has it already been rebuilt with forged pistons and the whole nine yard?


Nope.


if you're still running on stock bottom end with the power you're making(480rwhp), then honestly I would love to see how long can your motor lats, with that kind of hardcore stress it has to goes through, do you really think the fragile cast pistons could handle it for long?


I'd like to see, too. But we're debating you jury-rigging a Fuel system without intimate knowldedge of how to match it to the system.

If you wanna discuss how long my motor will hold up to the horse-power I'm producing, that's a worthy discussion. I don't know that answer.

What I am talking with YOU about is someone having an ill-tuned fuel system grenade their motor BEFORE they EVER see how much HP it will take! IF you think a MAFT is going to compete with programming and solve your fuel issues when you try to take a Stage I SC to a Stage II, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

I'm not dis'in' you. <img src="graemlins/gr_punch.gif" border="0" alt="[fight]" /> I'm trying to make you think deeper than you are. I know what you mean about not having money to throw away. That's what this discussion is about. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">


Well...you'd probably have tons of cash laying around in the bank waiting to rebuild IF or WHEN it blow up, unfortunately I don't.


See my last comment about money. I'd rather spend it in a tranny and rearend than a motor at this point. I also want an after-market hood. But, you are right... it could happen. But, NOT because I didn't feed it right... get it? <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">


If the basic kit is so weak and has so much flaws that it needs Goldern West to do the upgrade for them, then GW must know their stuff MUCH better than ATI's engineer??


Dude... Jason DID work at ATI... and he wasn't the water boy, either <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> AND, kenny was a race-car driver and mechanic for more years than you have probably lived.


May I ask exactly what GW has to reprogram with their tuning package? lemme guess....a/f and timing?


A lot more control for the parameters you mention, and a lot more than the MAFT is gonna give you. But THAT's why I'm telling you this stuff... so you'll know. Don't shoot the messenger.


So as far as I'm concern, the stage1 or tuner is pretty much a poorman kits right? but it fits my budget and I run what I can afford


Based on my last advice to you, isn't that EXACTLY what I said. I just added that you should stick with that... not make it dangerous to your car and your wallet.

if the stage1 doesn't worth a damn and it's so much worst than the GW stage2 like you said...


Man! Where do you get this stuff from? <img src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" border="0"> I didn't say that... you did.


then I guess I should save the $4000 and go H/C.


I thought of recommending that to you. But, I figured you had SOME reason to want the SC, and you won't likely get 450 HP, 430 HP, or whichever it was you decided you wanted, out of a straight h/c combo.

The SC is a LOT of fun and if you can get it, enjoy it as much as you can. But that is a LOT of money to spend, as you say. You don't need to have a sad face too soon. You wanna keep this: <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">

Final advice again: Get the ATI 5 PSI kit and run it the way they designed it. When you are ready to upgrade it, get a professional to work with you. Don't go have-azz putting stuff on it and trying to accomodate the change with bandaid fixes like the MAFT. Remember... you don't care about beating anyone at the track or on the srreet, for that matter. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> 410 to 430 HP from a SC sounds like what you really want, based on all your arguments.

I hear you really wanting more. I'm just making you think it through. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

XLR8NSS

iTrader: (4)

Hi Catfish

Since I'm home sick today let me see if I can help.

1) I think the P-1SC-1(that is the charger used in the LS1/ATI kit) will be fine for 5psi. I see 4psi of boost with mine and I don't think you'll have to worry about any extra heat at these boost levels. The dual intercoolers do an excellent job at keeping the compressed air cool.

2) Well the whining noise from the blower is not loud at all with the 4" pulley I'm running but, the compressor makes a rattling noise sorta like a bad water pump bearing. I think you can call ATI and get them to match the best parts inside the blower to keep the rattle down. I think mine is probably one of the louder ones. <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

3) If you don't plan on any other upgrades the 30# injectors will probably be fine and you can tune them using a MAFT. They'll act like 36# injectors at our fuel pressure. They'll probably be running some pretty high duty cycles though. <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0">

4)The stage I ATI kit comes with an inline pump that works ok. If you plan on any other upgrades to your car though I would consider getting a bigger pump. I don't know a whole lot about the different pumps out there though.

5)I did have problems with the FMU. It never would raise the fuel pressure under boost. It would raise the pressure with a air supply hooked up to it but never with boost pressure. It could be that the pump couldn't supply the volume at 80-90 psi though. I don't know because I decided to get the stage II fuel stuff so I never pursued the cause.

6) I posted some ATAP numbers around somewhere. Let me find it and I'll link to it in this thread. These numbers are at 4psi, with stock 28.8# '01 injectors, and no FMU.

Engine Speed,MAF Air Flow Rate,O2 Sensor - B1S1,O2 Sensor - B2S1,Ignition Timing Adv,Throttle Pos Ang,Inj Pulse Width B1,Inj Pulse Width B2
3088,22.01,0.950,0.935,16.5,100.0,21.21,21.48
3308,24.16,0.940,0.955,18.0,100.0,22.77,23.38
3805,30.52,0.935,0.945,18.5,100.0,24.32,24.73
4056,31.64,0.945,0.935,18.5,100.0,25.07,25.01
4294,32.94,0.950,0.935,18.5,100.0,25.68,25.86
4604,40.27,0.940,0.935,18.5,100.0,27.04,26.69
4869,43.83,0.930,0.925,18.5,100.0,26.57,26.63
5174,44.13,0.910,0.920,18.5,100.0,26.57,26.69
5401,45.82,0.910,0.900,18.5,100.0,25.27,25.48
5672,45.37,0.895,0.885,18.5,100.0,23.71,23.65
6122,46.09,0.880,0.880,20.0,100.0,23.65,23.65

1197,7.21,0.900,0.920,14.5,100.0,18.31,18.84
2691,17.71,0.940,0.940,15.5,100.0,19.79,19.59
3014,20.43,0.925,0.925,16.5,100.0,20.54,20.87
3246,22.46,0.935,0.935,17.0,100.0,21.21,21.82
3505,25.03,0.925,0.925,18.0,100.0,22.51,22.90
3785,28.85,0.935,0.925,18.5,100.0,24.06,23.93
4054,32.47,0.930,0.930,18.5,100.0,24.54,24.66
4334,36.66,0.930,0.935,18.5,100.0,25.34,25.96
4629,40.61,0.935,0.925,18.5,100.0,25.34,27.04
4907,40.29,0.925,0.905,18.5,100.0,26.69,26.76
5194,44.13,0.905,0.895,18.5,100.0,25.82,26.43
5470,46.71,0.900,0.880,18.5,100.0,25.27,25.27
5806,45.37,0.890,0.880,19.0,100.0,23.85,23.93

2558,17.01,0.935,0.935,16.5,100.0,21.35,22.71
3564,25.98,0.935,0.930,18.0,100.0,23.06,23.06
3785,29.40,0.940,0.920,18.5,100.0,24.06,24.46
4052,32.47,0.935,0.935,18.5,100.0,24.54,24.80
4312,34.32,0.935,0.935,18.5,100.0,25.21,25.48
4570,37.21,0.930,0.940,18.5,100.0,25.74,26.15
4848,40.61,0.925,0.925,18.5,100.0,27.10,26.49
5113,43.86,0.915,0.905,18.5,100.0,26.21,26.35
5376,45.82,0.905,0.900,18.5,100.0,25.34,25.54
5659,46.31,0.890,0.895,18.5,100.0,24.46,24.32

I know you don't want to hear this but I'm going to say it anyway. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> The stage II kit really addresses all fuel system issues. You get bigger injectors, programming, a HUGE Aeromotive inline pump and whatever pulley you want. You can always upgrade in the future though. Thats what I ended up doing. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">

Overall, I think you'll be fine running the stage I kit with the FMU(as long as it works). Definately upgrade to 30# injectors. If you want to run 5psi I think you'll need a smaller pulley than the 4" one.

If you have any other questions just ask. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">

<img src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Johnnie

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: XLR8NSS ]

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: XLR8NSS ]

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: XLR8NSS ]</p>

y2khawk

iTrader: (5)

Interesting....

Catfish, the guys are just giving you a heads up. FI is not for the faint hearted <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> so, lets keep it happy <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">

A word of warning, if you tweak for big injectors w/ the MAFT you will get more advance. Not good for a blown car.

how do i know???

i'm making 570+RWHP on a stock motor w/ 15° of timing at peak torque and 21° max by 6200.

and you would be surprised at the little things you'll need along the way. A tuner kit is the way to go for some. That's about what i did.

Take all this for what it is, advice

<img src="graemlins/formula.gif" border="0" alt="[Pontiac]" />

[ December 18, 2001: Message edited by: y2khawk ]</p>

Black LS1 T/A

Catfish will be alright.

I hate it when guys BS you with "Oh, yeah man.. do that!" stuff when you are trying to find out what you're in for.

It may not be all Catfish wants to hear, but at least we are being straight with him. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[Burnout]" />

I would like nothing more than to see him and more in an ATI, be it the Stage I or Stage II. But, guys who get a kit and mess it (and themselves) up have a bad experience with a good product, and it wasn't the products fault but their misconceptions or wrong expectations.

I have a good idea I'm pushing my luck with almost 500 RWHP and RWTQ in a stock internals car. Then again, maybe not. I don't dog it every day. (Well, I did make a dozen runs almost every week WOT down the track most of the summer and Fall.) And I drive it most days... soemtimes my wife reminds me I haven't driven my van in two weeks and I should a least drive it to work ONE day. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

But, I would kick myself if I let a fellow F-body guy think he will be ok tuning a SC with a MAFT without giving him a hard time about it first. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">

It's called "Tough Love", man! <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

just me

There is a learning curve with forced induction.

I am pretty good at supercharging and bought and installed my 1st Paxton centrifugal(blow through system on 85 5.0) back in 1985 when just about nobody was using them at the time.I remember guys looking at me funny when they saw the thing. Centrifugals were not common on the street.
I don't think Vortech and ATI were even around yet.

I have now owned and built 6 supercharged cars in between my nitrous hysteria.

There is nothing better and more fun than supercharged engines.Maybe turbos, but I have not gone there.
It can be quite expensive when you learn the hard way about fueling and tuning these motors.

I post and do some things with my car that I don't expect anybody to try and follow. I just share information for fun.
My best advice to anybody brand new to all of this is start out slow, stick with a kit exactly as designed and until you truly know what you are doing, do not start modifying the fueling and timing and upping the boost.


Steve

[ December 18, 2001: Message edited by: just me ]</p>

Ben99Z28

That's cool, thanks everyone for replying...I will consider the stage2 but I'll have to wait till next summer though, don't have $5500 now and I'm not going to charge Credit Cards either <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">

Black LS1 T/A

[quote]Originally posted by Catfish:
<strong>That's cool, thanks everyone for replying...I will consider the stage2 but I'll have to wait till next summer though, don't have $5500 now and I'm not going to charge Credit Cards either <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>

You are a better man than me. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">

I had $4300 saved up and was ready to get the ATI Stage I OR one of the guys Twin Turbo's. The TT deal fell thru and the standard ATI kit would not work on a '98. GWP was my only resort, and I wanted to do SOME racing with it this year, so I charged the rest. <img src="gr_sad.gif" border="0">

But it put a big grin back on my face. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">

You have a couple months before racing really starts again. But try to plan about 6 weeks between your order when you want to be running. That gives time for you to get your stuff and install and some driving around getting comfortable.

If you get the standard ATI kit, plan about 3 or 4 weeks... about two for the kit to come, a week to choose a good day to do the install, and another week to kick around before track time.

Oops... I forgot you don't really care about hte track. Just give it some time so you don't get too antsy depending on what kit you decide to buy.

You WILL be glad you waited for the extra grand to get a stage II IF that is what you want. If you are happy with the Stage I, you WON'T be disappointed... just run it like it's designed.

Welcome to the FI club! Keep us up to date!! <img src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Black LS1 T/A

I HAVE to give just me the "thumbs up" on this one:

"There is nothing better and more fun than supercharged engines. Maybe turbos..."

Catfish, you will have a BLAST with a SC'd car.

Keep saving for it and get it... you'll LOVE it!

But don't discard our advice. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">