LJ_Z28

I am just curious about your results...

And if you had to do it again, would you do anything different???

Sir Sel

Good question. ttt

Hurley

TByre advertises on his website that the shop car has a 409ci with a aftercooled Vortech blower.

John

Sir Sel

Thanks Hurley

Looks like the 409ci with about 9:1 cr is the ticket. That camaro sounds great and is fast. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> <img src="gr_tounge.gif" border="0">

ChrisB

I have tuned LT1 383 and 396's - one of each with a p600b. Not nearly enough compressor for the motor. I think the P1 series are essentially rated the same?

If it were I the first thing I would do is step up to a D1-series for a larger cubic inch motor.

(well actually I would switch to a vortech, but that's a different debate <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> )


Chris

Camaroholic

iTrader: (1)

Hey Chris,

A Vortech is definitely the way I'd go on an LT1 (heh, almost went there), but on the LS1's, that Vortech compressor seems kinda small. And I do remember Tom Byrne saying that he was switching over to an ATI blower this year as the motor got bigger.

I don't think I would be very happy if I stayed NA here at altitude, so I'll probably get blown later this year. The current leading contender for my dollars is the ATI Stage II D1-SC package from GWP. It ought to go well with what I've put together so far.

-Andrew

ChrisB

There are people making awesome power with the D1's, no question, and I acknowledge that people have had good luck with them. But so far friends and people I know are 4 for 4 with blown/dead/leaky blowers. 0 personal experience with vortech problems. *I* dealt with ATI customer service with one of them, and on a rebuild p600b (rebuild by ATI for 600) the impeller hit the housing within 15 miles. Basically "tough luck".

if you have a vendor like GWP who is willing to be the middle man and take care of those problems than that's a totally different situation - and I admit, anecdotal evidence is fairly limited. It's just the whole "fool me once, shame on me...." thing.

I agree with you - the vortech LS1 compressor is crap (size wise), and I probably would go with a D1 over it. But first I would spend a long time trying to fit a T-trim in the engine bay <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">


Chris

Nick Agostino

We have 3 400+ inch Ls1's with D-1's going on them in the next few weeks, I will let the results be known. The first one we did(just under 400inch) made 665/605 at the wheeles and was happy with the results on 93 octane.

What is interesting is that we will be dynoing a 427 Z06 that made 478rwhp/489rwtq Na and the customer decided to bolt the D1 on @ about 6 psi, we dropped the compression from 11.2 to 10.2. We should have the results in about 2 weeks.

Camaroholic

iTrader: (1)

Well, FWIW, you couldn't pay me to put a 600b on my '94Z. In my mind, that blower is crap, and always will be. The D1 seems to be an improved design, haven't heard nearly as many horror stories about it (only one, IIRC, that the blower just wasn't working right or warped or something - not that it fragged and took out someone's brand new forged motor - like what happened to Ellis and his 600b).

If Vortech made a S- or T- trim kit for the LS1, I'd seriously consider it, because those are well designed blowers that are good for growth (look at LJ's S-trim - he's knocking on 9's if he can get the rest of his drivetrain to hold together - lost his TC and rear end this weekend <img src="gr_sad.gif" border="0"> ). But as it stands, I'll pass. I'd rather have something that can grow - especially at high altitude. I'll need to spin the sucker pretty fast to make 'sufficient' boost anyway. And the ATI is the only unit that will 'out of the box' do that.

-Andrew

just me

[quote]the vortech LS1 compressor is crap (size wise), and I probably would go with a D1 over it<hr></blockquote>

that's a bit Harsh IMO.

I have had no trouble running 100+mph in the 1/8th (124mph 1/4 in summer heat)with 2.73 gears and a 2800 PI converter with the crap size blower.
I know of PLENTY of serious stalled, steep geared lighter weight, big cubed motors I would show my tail lights to,(especialy through the 1/8th) with the extreme lazy drivetrain I have with the lil' vortech pushing air.

I have had no trouble peaking the maf flow limit of 58lbs/min early by 5400rpm with the crap blower.
Yeah you need to spin it fast but it is still very efficient and has a very nice impeller design.
It is a small blower.

My power is (was) well over 550RWHP with this blower. 10psi and with h20/alky injection, charge temps of 86 degrees with no intercooler on a 70 degree day!
If you want 600+ RWHP then yep it is to small.
No arguments there.
But let's not talk about 500+ rwhp as if it's a waste of time. For most guys it is plenty.
I have built my own supercharged motors since 1985 <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

Steve

ChrisB

Will it flow enough to support 550rwhp? Just going by the compressor map I would think it would be pretty much done at 500rwhp?

Regardless, if that is your goal then the blower can work fine - but when you can make the same power NA with a nice 408-422 it just doesn't appeal to me. I see a blower as a tool to achieve high hp levels than you could otherwise, not as an alternate way to achieve built NA hp levels.

Is the space really so cramped that even a HD S-trim won't fit? (sincey ou have the kit?) That would be a much better bottom end blower, with enough CFM to get you near 140mph if you max everything out in a light car, and the HD s-trim can be upgraded to a t-trim very easily.


Chris

Crazyquik

I think some ppl in this thread are talking about the V9-G trim and others about S trims. FWIW I think the Vortech V9G is too small, but didn't Steve make his own kit (more or less) with a S trim?

just me

No ,I am using the heavy duty V-9 G-trim with no after cooler and a custom built h2o/alky system.
Forget the compressor map as it's very conservative. I'll take real world results any day.
My blower packs in the max air rating on that map on my car at a measily 53,000 impeller rpm.I spin it to 63,000rpm.
Hell, Powerdyne rates their blower a full 100cfm more than the G-trim.
Who's kidding who? <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">

Paxton, geez we ran those suckers 10K rpm faster than redline all the time and made great power back in the day.

Their(Vortech) Hp ratings are conservative on all of their blowers IMO.
geez, MMS made close to 600RWHP with a g-trim a while back although I think they blew up the unit eventually, Tom Byrne made 550 or 570 I believe.
I have a slight advantage of no pressure drop through an aftercooler and I use plenty of water and alcohol to run full timing with 10psi. This makes power.
Most Vortech guys are running around spinning this thing way to slow and running 15-18 degrees max advance.Reliable street setup but a slow setup.
Some racers have found over revving an s-trim to make more power than a slower spinning T-trim at the same boost.
Good practice? No.. But heck we used to run 9's with a balldrive VR4 race paxton on 302 cubes.
I totally disagree with you Chris. I'll take a blown motor any day over N.A. even if they are at the same power levels.
I have had my share of big cube motors by the way.
The problem with forced induction is it requires much greater knowledge of tuning. But once you have that under control it's all cake.
I like the technology of efi forced induction.


oh, hell all I need to do is put in some gear and a bit more stall and I'll trap 130 easy.
As it is now I spend no time at all at peak boost and drop a full 4psi in 3rd gear, hence the slow 124 trap speed.
But it's one heck of a fun street motor with power to spare.
As for the old P600's... no comment. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">

ChrisB

I think I agree with you on the p600b, and I think ATI is still living that one down in many people's minds <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> .

I would be suprised to see 600rwhp out of a reliable G-trim! 550 I could believe, though that's probably overspinning (it's one thing to overspin it yoruself, another thing to spec out a blower kit that requires over-spinning to reach your goals?)

And I agree with you 100% on the tuning aspect of the blower car - which is why I like a good NA car when the goals allow for it - it generally is much easier to tune, setup, etc. - especially if you are doing it for someone else.

Plus when you get to the point where the fuel system, motor, etc. is all ready for a blower setup you are probably going to max out the G-trim pretty easily. When you are building that motor (esp. with LS1 parts availability - all forged/billet pretty much, cutom pistons, etc.) it's not a stretch to build for a little more boost.

And a water/alky setup allows you to see a little more boost - as you pointed out - but would you honestly recommend it to someone who didn't already understand all the concepts behind it, etc?

I agree with 99% of your points, I think our perspective is just different. If I am going to put up with the extra work of a blower motor I want extra power - and I think the G-trim is going to be hard pressed to improve by any great amount on what a well built 408/422 could do.

Chris

just me

Well a good working h20/alky system is an amazing system. But yes it needs to be fully understood to make proper use of it.
I don't belive I am actually over spinning this unit yet.It's rated to 65,000 rpm.Although I admit that is way higher speeds than I am used to.And the thought of pushing it beyond that is very scary budget wise.

Look at a powerdyne. I think they rate the unit to around 44,000rpm?
If you could spin the thing to 60K it would make great power most likely as it has a decent impeller design and is a decent sized blower but the belt drive just won't handle it.Impeller tip speed is what gets that air a movin.
Anyhow it's MY blower, I paid for it and will do what I choose with it. I am going to have the volute inside fully polished to see if I can pick up a tad more flow.
hmmmm... OK the average 400+ cube ls1 will probably equal an average G-trim setup.
But put a good 300cfm head on a 346 and boost it to 10psi and now it's like you added a ~390cfm port THAT ACTUALLY WORKS!
Ahh but it doesn't stop there as the cylinder pressure is happening differently and putting more work to the piston over a longer period of time as well.
It's just so easy to make a lot of Hp with forced induction is the point.

And since my motor is getting the budget rebuild and is all apart ,my heads have gotten a serious rework by Ol' me.
My goal is a solid 550+rwhp by 6000rpm going BACK to a stock cam and the g-trim pullied to spin 62000rpm by 6000 engine rpm with enough water/alky I could have pistons made of Glass China and they won't break <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
I actually am satisfied with the power level I have gotten so far.Much more and I might as well just start building a race car as even with 2.73 gears and the small stall it's downright ridiculous on the street.
hmmm, I just got me a th400 for doing a set of Mitsu dohc heads for a buddy so who knows..

<img src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" border="0" alt="[devil]" />

Sir Sel

So what's your opinion on bigger cubes with less boost or smaller cubes with more boost? It would seem that the former is more reliable and which is the better drag racer? Although some of this is unchartered territory with the LS1 your opinions are appreciated.

Thanks
Sel

Nick, still waiting on the numbers my friend.

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Sir Sel ]</p>

just me

hell if you got the cash more cubes + blower would make big power real easy.

ChrisB

With boost I would be carefull about going to big.

Go to big on the bore and you start talking block reliability problems, esp. under boost.

Go to big on the stroke and you start getting to small of a ring stack for good boost control.

When you start talking serious boost airflow doesn't become an issue - that's pretty muched fixed by the compressor (though the pressure it happens at isn't) - the issue is making the motor strong enough to handle the power.

IMHO the correct answer entirely depends on the HP level you are shooting for, as well as drivability, emissions, etc. requirements.


Chris

Sir Sel

ChrisB

Requirements:
1)Reliable
2)Emissions legal and streetable
3)As much HP/TQ as possible given the prev 2 reqs.
4)Mid-elevens to high-tens in the quarter.

Thanks

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Sir Sel ]</p>

ChrisB

If all you want is high 10's/low11's then I would go with a 408+ stroker motor. In an emissions legal setup 470rwhp should be no problem, and there may very well be more.

What kind of trap speeds are you looking for. That should be good for around 130mph with everything set up and running properly. If you want more than that (or live in Denver, etc) then FI is going to be required.


Chris