BIGBOS

Now that I've been doing a little more research, I've been starting to think about a few things...

I know the main difference between the supercharger and the turbo is the Torque...does the supercharger make up for it on the top end...I know the turbo makes a lot of low end TQ, but what about high end HP, does the supercharger make more top end?

The singe turbo kit I was looking into was the ls1motorsports kit, which is about $8000 when all said and done...the kit put out some damn impressive #'s, but for 8000 dollars, thats a lot..

I really haven't looked up prices on the ATI kits...

How much is it for the ATI D-1SC kit, what does the kit include?, does it have enough fuel support, what kind of options can I get with it, I would basically need everything to support it on a heads/cam car...

I would like a few opinions on all of this...

MelloYellow

How about multiplying the TQ with some gears?
Maybe pose the Q, would a D1-SC with 4.10's outperform the same boosted Turbo w/3.42's?

Probably still not but would make things more even. Plus you can always run more boost on the SC than on the Turbo. It's softer on the engine with less TQ. People will debate back and forth. Both can be good setups.

JimmyKash

BELT

thats the only headache with blowers...i've used one in the past (blowers) and helped tune/drive a few other friends cars with blowers. They make some awesome power

Turbos just have no belt and you aren't always waiting on full boost

BIGBOS

What about the turbo lag with these LS1 kits, is it bad....and how high into the RPM's do you have to be to make full boost with an ATI...the only reason I'm considering an ATI is because its cheaper..

smokinHawk

iTrader: (48)

with my T76 i make full boost (10psi) some where aroun 3k, with the cutout open.
i make 2psi about 1800

MIGHTYMOUSE

iTrader: (59)

with any centrifugal supercharger, you only get max boost at max hp, all other times you are under it. Full boost with a properly sized turbo on our displacement will land around 3000rpm so you are at max boost from 3000rpm to max rpm.

now you tell me who has the lag? hehe.

the supercharger has no upsides to the turbo unless you like the noise or the more snappy throttle.. definitely no bottom line output increase unless you are talking racing below 3000rpms

a D1 tuner supercharger set up from ati is over 4k add headers, 5k, add tuning, 5.5k, add injectors, 6k, add fuel pump, new plug wires, new 85mm maf blah blah you see you are right at 6.5k which is the same as the motorsports turbo kit. also add the cost of gears and install if you want to go with mellow's suggestion, another 500 bux.

(mind you the introductory price was only 6k that only like 9 people took advantage of)

for all this you get a gauranteed 100 less rwtq.

if you have to get either installed (including header install for the sc) the install price of 1500 is fair for both.

the ONLY way you can run more boost with a sc is if the sc has les flow cabability..
a p1sc at 11psi probably flows the same amount of air as a t-76 does at 7psi (educated guess)
boost does not equal output... more boost with less output does equal ineficcient though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />

the above said, i really like the ati setup and would probably get it if the turbo wasnt available.. both are capable of big power

someone let me know if i left anything out.

<small>[ December 03, 2002, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: MIGHTYMOUSE ]</small>

RedBaron

iTrader: (2)

What do you mean by snappier throttle? Does the car jump more? From a 30 or 40 mph roll, which would feel faster, a sc or turbo?

RedBaron

iTrader: (2)

With about the same output.

SJH

with all that wisdom you just handed out you go and make a serious error like this-
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">a p1sc at 11psi probably flows the same amount of air as a t-76 does at 7psi (educated guess)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Totally off the wall and wrong.
When o when will you guys ever get it?
Boost is backpressure and not airflow.
T-76 or G-trim vortech, or a friggin hundred leaf blowers..
It will take the same airflow to produce the same intake boost (backpressure) on the engine in question,assuming the same air charge temps of course.
Now if you have your wires crossed and meant maybe the t-76 at 9psi will make the same power as a p1sc at 11psi, well then you could make some arguments for that case from less parasitic power loss, more efficient etc...

Steve

<small>[ December 03, 2002, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: SJH ]</small>

MIGHTYMOUSE

iTrader: (59)

red baron.. with a supercharger, at pretty much any useable rpm you are getting 'some' boost, so any time you tap the gas to WOT you will definitely get in to 'some' boost.. this does not happen with turbo, as it also depends on load in that case.

what you feel is the torque. you will feel the turbo more, the sc is very smooth how the power builds, it will feel like stock exept much faster.

no SJH, actually I meant what I meant. Having already had a t-60 and a t-76 I can promise that 7psi on each is not the same.
If what you say is true, then how come everyone is not running around on p1's and t-60's.. they both can put plenty of 'numerical' boost out, over 15# for the turbo is easy.. but the airlfow just isn't there.
I might have my terminology a touch off, but I am definitely not wrong.

stock injectors can handle 60psi of fuel easy... why go to larger injectors and why does the mixture richen when you didn't change the fuel pressure? more flow.

i'm open to suggestions but this is what i have learned from who is currently doing it best over here.
I totally understand where you are comming from, because that is what I used to think as well.

BIGBOS

I already have headers, all I would need is a the fuel supply, and doesn't that come with the kit?

Unreal

Mightymouse is right. A turbo is more efficent, and will make cooler air. Cooler air has more o2, which means more power at the same boost. 20psi on a p1 is totally different from 20psi on a t-76.

ZYA_LTR

UNREAL, Please explain how you came up with the notion that turbos make a cooler air charge than blowers? Are you comparing them innercooled? noninnercooled? what form of innercooler? because with my experience, and that of most others, that is one of the few drawbacks to a turbo, is that the intake air temp is greater than that of a supercharged car, even if they are both innercooled, as long as they are similar in setup, the IAT is always lower on the supercharged car. My ATI Procharged Camaroh ad an IAT of only 3 degrees above ambient, in Michigan summer weather with high humidity. With the turbo being a smaller turbine, it requires the turbine to spin faster than that of a supercharged car, thus causing more heat, and the fact that it is exhaust driven being mounted on the exhaust manifold, causing heat soak, thus causes the air coming out of a tubo to be greatly higher than that of the air coming out of the supercharger. So now i ask you where your info came from, i work at a shop that specializes in forced induction, and designed ATI's kit for the 4.3liter vortec s-series trucks, and the first turbo kit for the same vehicles, both innercooled, with the turbo having a higher IAT, but also making more power. so they have there up's and down's, which is why we are putting a version of Nitrous Express' "N"tercooler kit on the turbocharged Blazer. Just wondering?

ArcticFormula

I've never driven a supercharged or turbocharged LS1, but I had a Turbo Trans Am for years, it was built up, but I kept a smaller quicker spooling turbo and lag was almost non-existant. Definitely had low end torque, which did not come on linear at all, made taking 90 turns with any amount of boost a sometimes annoying oversteer issue, as it could be unpredictable. Nod to the supercharger if it is a more linear deleviery. Anyway, I would give the nod to the turbo if you have a lot of cash and want to run higher boost levels (or in the future), why spend the extra cash over the supercharger just to run 5-7 lbs of boost on a turbo. Turbo is supposed to be more efficient, and with that heads/cam V8 you have, I would say you have pleanty of low end torque before that turbo comes online (kind of negating the supercharger advantage mentioned earlier). I don't know what the guys running high boost are doing but I imagine they have lower compression motors with forged parts, big bucks. I would say get the supercharger kit, use at a sane boost level and keep the extra cash in case something breaks.
Regards,

lbz34

iTrader: (3)

Turbochargers, if properly sized, they key issue will always be more efficient and make more power than a centrifugal blower. PSI is presure and not CFM is flow. This gruop sems to have a very good handle on the Fi world. Most of my local v8 people dont seem to have a clue or want to listen to any turbo people here. Plenty of v8 people with blowers. Most of them would lose or barely pull my turbo integra. Not that my car is fast but it would take no less thant 430 hp at the weheels to put a kill on the turbocharged gs-r, which only made 250. Now this is from a roll of course and we are at 6000 ft altitude. Now i have the z to play with too. should be fun. Unfortunately i dont think i will be doing FI on it. At least not for awhile. The damn thing just doesnt have decent room for a turbo. I dont want to relocate tons of stuff.

MIGHTYMOUSE

iTrader: (59)

arctic, yes i agree a lower priced supercharger would sway many and be the better way to go, but look at my post above, they come basically to identical cost levels.

lbz34 there is plenty of room in there! check out the ls1motorsports kit
http://www.ls1motorsports.com/Single_Turbo.htm

or my old kit pics in sig.. its not much problem at all, just one simple move of the alternator.

rob raymers fit a 88mm in his so far.. that big enough?

lbz34

iTrader: (3)

Where do you move it to ???? If i can get a decent pic i can build my own. would just need to buy the drivers header. same thing i do on other cars. jsut but the hard piecers (header turbo, cooler, etc...).
thanks

BIGBOS

I think I am going to go procharger...I can get a good deal on one and the goodies I need to go along with it...

ZYA_LTR

I'm wondering if he didn't move the alternator up top like the vette's do, or ditched the a/c, and put it over there, and i agree, once you get a couple more pics, this kit would be easy to duplicate, for a very reasonable price, which is why we are gonna just make our own kit on my roomate's car, the custom header part is actually not hard to do, as long as you have the tools to cut and weld, and have some spare time. If i didn't already have the blower, i would be doing the turbo thing also, as a matter of fact, i should put the damn blower for sale, and buy the turbo, and do it up, damn , now i'm thinking again, shoot.

Gold Phoenix

iTrader: (1)

Here is the "turbo is better" answer. A typical S/C has an efficiency of about 65 to 72%, where a T-76 is 78% and 60-1 is 76%. This percentage is the amount of usable airflow. The other is lost due to heat. There is a series of formulas to show how much of a difference these numbers make. Also, a compressor map would help show how efficient a unit is with different engine sizes and boosts. A T-76 on a 346-370cid is excellent up to 25psi of boost. The only problem is that the boost will be at max at 3000rpm. At this level, the intercooler may not be able to keep up and cause knock. With electronic boost timers and controllers, this can make a 1000HP motor with 20psi and crank it down for everyday drving. You really can't do that with a S/C unless you go larger than the D-1SC. Even if you go bigger, the would be more HP used to turn the S/C to force that 20psi of boost. And with a S/C, to keep that higher boost easily available, a blow-off valve with have to be used and waste airflow is dumped outboard. I don't know about the rest of you, but I like torque and power down lower in the RPM range. It saves engine parts and you don't have to sound like a Pro Stock Car on the street.