Ironmancan

I guess that makes me a poor man and loving it.

mahhddgtp

I say yes... But I'm strict. It adds power to your car when you're tuned for it... Same for race gas... Both are specially purchased items and aren't available just at any gas station....

Nitrous is a power adder.
Turbos are a power adder.
Superchargers are a power adder
Intercoolers are a component of a power adder.

Is a head and cam a power adder? Well. I define PART of 'power adder' as an individual unit that performs its function that's not necessary for the engine to run.. Without heads and a cam, you don't have a working engine (okay, fine. there's a rotary engine too).

Let's stretch this to gas and nitrous.. Cars can run without N2O, but not without gas... That's where my other half comes in... Pure meth and race gas isn't found everywhere. That's just my take...

If you use windshield wiper fluid in your meth setup.. That's readily available, but in my opinion it still serves a function of increasing your octane (to the gas you just bought so your car run) so you can add more power. I guess someone can always argue racegas and meth are NOT power adders, because REQUIRES meth or race gas for it to run without blowing up... Because it's a required for it to run.

I don't know... It's too dynamic of a subject for me to care about. Hell, if you came up and said racegas or meth weren't power adders, I wouldn't be pissed

ls1290

iTrader: (20)

I will have to disagree with you here a bit. A power adder will add power to the car by its own accord. If you add methanol or race gas to a stock car and nothing else, the car will not make any extra power. If you add a supercharger, turbocharger, or nitrous to a stock car, the car will make more power. Maybe not to it full potential because the car is not tuned, but it will make more power than stock. Plus a power adder needs to increase power by a large percentage or bolts would be considered a power adder

Keith

andereck

Well methanol injection is generally part of some sort of supercharging system. Supercharging here refers to either belt or exhaust driven. Methanol itself is not particularly high octane and its primary purpose is to drop IAT which increases charge density and also has the effect of increasing detonation resistance to a degree from the drop in temperature. Methanol or methanol/water to me is an intercooling agent. I don't think as an add-on that the volume of methanol being injected has a positive effect on power from burning the fuel itself.

Now if methanol was the primary fuel being used that's a different story.

Is methanol injection a power-adder? Yes as previously mentioned you should be picking up power due to higher charge density which lets you burn more fuel. (the methanol in the mix?) Aluminum intercoolers do the same thing.

ls1290

iTrader: (20)

Yes those things aid a power adder to make more power, but in themselves add nothing. Based on your logic, ORPs are a power adder. They allow the exhaust gases to exit the cylinders better so that more air and fuel can enter. Just because something can aid a power adders does not make itself a power adder.

Keith

andereck

So then, are you setting the standard of what is and isn't a power adder then? If so then maybe you should create a list and make it a sticky.....

My logic says this, a supercharger creates a higher charge density which allows more oxygen to fit in a given space. This extra oxygen allows us to burn more fuel to add power. An intercooler increases charge density by cooling off the compressed air, its an integral part of supercharging and can increase power with use. Methanol injection is an alternative form of intercooling that happens to contain some of the enrichment fuel that adds power.

That's my logic anyways. I've never verbally spoken about an ORP and have to assume you meant "off-road pipe". But my logic says that literrally anything that adds power is a "power-adder" but in today's car culture a power-adder is restricted to some form of supercharging with either a blower, turbo or nitrous.

In TopAlcohol drag racing I'm pretty certian you will find guys that consider nitromethane a power adder, ever heard of that stuff? its just a fuel consumed in a naturally aspirated engine in that class. I hear its pretty effective.

ls1290

iTrader: (20)

No, it is already determine that a power adder generates a large percentage power increase by its own means.

Yes a supercharger does increase the charge density and thus makes power. An intercooler also cools the charge making more dense so that it creates more power. Same thing with methanol. Here is main point..... a supercharger added to a stock car will generate more power, but methanol or an intercooler added to a stock car will add nothing.

If you do not see what I am saying, then I think we will have to agree to disagree.

Keith

andereck

Ah, come on. Don't get mad, you weren't clear what point you were making in the post before.

Are you sure that adding a liquid intercooler to a naturally aspirated engine won't add power if you tune around it? You might be surprised, granted its not a huge increase but it can make a car run like its in 50 degree air in the summertime.

ls1290

iTrader: (20)

Not mad, so no problem. You are most likely right in that I was not getting my point across clearly. This d@mn work thing keeps interrupting

Sure, it will add some power, but to be a power adder it need to add a large increase of power like 40% or more. If it is adding 10 to 15 rwhp, it is a bolt on

Keith

1320

iTrader: (6)

Actually 87 octane is a power adder over 93, and 93 is a power adder over race gas. Just because your engne cant run on it, doesnt mean that 87 is a bad fuel. There is more energy in lower octane fuel. Thats why you want to run the lowest octane you can get away with, more btu's in the same amount of fuel. I would argue that Meth is a huge power subtractor, its energy is close to half of gasoline, thats why you need nearly twice as much to use it as a fuel, it has very little energy in it.

Just because your smart enough to use it to your advantage doesnt change the FACT that it makes less power then gas. Like if you find a way to run 87 octane with 40 psi you will have a distict advantage, doesnt make it illegal, just makes you smarter for figuring out how to do it.

andereck

Well I think we can pretty much agree then.

onfire

iTrader: (17)

Meth is not a power adder since it does not bring o2 to the motor. SC, turbo,n2o all have one thing in common....they add o2 to the motor...the more o2 properly exploded...the more power....

Now if you injected nitromethane in a meth system...that's a power adder as it brings liquid o2. CH3no2 vs ch3oh

andereck

Intercooling with methanol does indeed bring more oxygen to the cylinder due to higher charge density from the cooling effect. While its up to the supercharger to ingest the extra air in the first place, intercooling allows more of it to reach the cylinder instead of back up in the intake system.

engineermike

I see this from time to time, and have to point out that it just isn't true. There is a bigger difference in energy content between summer and winter fuels, than there is from 87 to 93 octane. Also, typically race gas will make more power than pump gas even at low compression ratios. This has been proven.

Mike

onfire

iTrader: (17)

Creates a condition that POTENTIALLY could bring more O2 IF yada,yada yada.....

No different than a cool fall day...

Unless that's a power adder too...

andereck

Huh? You said in absolutes that there wouldn't be anymore oxygen in the cylinder. I said you were incorrect.

Depending on the flowrate you can drop IAT 40 to well over 100 degrees with methanol. Thats fairly significant in my book. Of course water will do that as well........

ninetres

iTrader: (35)

LOL at people claiming meth is a power adder. I think on-fire said it best "not unless a cool day is a power adder".

andereck

Loling at the guy who had a very nice car built for him, but isn't doing the work himself loling at a guy trying to provide logic in a technical discussion. LOL.

ninetres

iTrader: (35)

Seriously, I think I am the only one who has ever had his car break down on him. I swear my car isn't in MY GARAGE about 50% of the way torn down. Just got to pull the heads and front cover. Nice try though.

Here is my logic Bill Nye:

Methanol does two things (which we all know):
1. Cools IATs
2. Increases octane

Is Ram Air a power adder? It cool IATs more so than a lid pulling air from the engine bay. Is premium fuel a power adder? It is increases octane from the standard 87 pump.

There is my logic in this "technical" discussion, that actually isn't technical at all; its common sense

andereck

Well, there seems that there are several thoughts on what methanol actually does and why its there and what that means to the engine when its in use. Common sense isn't exactly previaling on this one.

I was appreciating the pictures of your car being modified in the shop with suspension, turbo and engine work all appearing to be performed at the same shop with the same yellow lift. Everybody I know has some work done outside the house, your entire buildup seems to be handled at the same place. The card must be smokin! I'd bet it runs hard though. The plumbing work from the turbo looks great.