View Poll Results: is meth injection a power adder
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Is meth considered a power adder
07-27-2007, 11:18 AM
#61
Originally Posted by engineermike
[hijack]1320, I work downstairs from a bunch of fuels blending chemists. Talk about get more info than you ever wanted. . . Anyway, I didn't write down energy contents during this conversation, which was over a year ago, but I do remember concluding that summer vs. winter fuels had a larger energy difference than 87 vs. 93 octane.
All theory aside, I kept 2 magazine articles proving this to be true.
Hot Rod, December 2001, "Octane Shootout"
Engine: 360 Chrysler, 10.4/1 compression
87 octane: 396 hp
91 octane: 402 hp
114 octane: 408 hp
Timing was adjusted for max power on each fuel. The 87 and 91 both made best power at 36 deg timing, while the 114 did best at 31 deg. This is not a typo. From the article, "we discovered that our presumption that higher-octane fuels burn slower than lower-octane fuels is largely incorrect. There are too many other fuel-fomulation issues at work to assign a general rule about octane."
Hot Rod, January 2004, "The Full Scream"
Engine: 408 Chevy, 9.9/1 compression
91 octane: 637 hp
114 octane: 651 hp
From the article, "It was evident from plug inspections that the engine was not experiencing detonation on the pump gas. . . our increase on power was more likely due to the fact that the structure of street gas includes hydrocarbons that may not vaporize until 400 deg, whereas the race gas vaporizes at perhaps 275 degrees."
[/hijack]
Mike
All theory aside, I kept 2 magazine articles proving this to be true.
Hot Rod, December 2001, "Octane Shootout"
Engine: 360 Chrysler, 10.4/1 compression
87 octane: 396 hp
91 octane: 402 hp
114 octane: 408 hp
Timing was adjusted for max power on each fuel. The 87 and 91 both made best power at 36 deg timing, while the 114 did best at 31 deg. This is not a typo. From the article, "we discovered that our presumption that higher-octane fuels burn slower than lower-octane fuels is largely incorrect. There are too many other fuel-fomulation issues at work to assign a general rule about octane."
Hot Rod, January 2004, "The Full Scream"
Engine: 408 Chevy, 9.9/1 compression
91 octane: 637 hp
114 octane: 651 hp
From the article, "It was evident from plug inspections that the engine was not experiencing detonation on the pump gas. . . our increase on power was more likely due to the fact that the structure of street gas includes hydrocarbons that may not vaporize until 400 deg, whereas the race gas vaporizes at perhaps 275 degrees."
[/hijack]
Mike
07-27-2007, 11:24 AM
#62
Originally Posted by great421
Given that line of reasoning, then ice on the intake is a power adder too, because of the same cooling effect.
Don't misunderstand, that is NOT a flame on you andereck, I'm just driving a semi-truck thru the hole in that particular line of reasoning.
I'm leaning towards onfire on this one, as it does not add O2.
Oh and I use Meth (blended 50/50 with water) on my normally aspirated LT4 (I still have not got that STS kit installed!); does it "add power" YES!
Should it be classified / regulated as a true Power Adder like turbos, nitrous, and superchargers? I don't know...
But I do know this, if it is considered a stand-alone Power Adder, then Intercoolers should be too, as they perform the same function.
Don't misunderstand, that is NOT a flame on you andereck, I'm just driving a semi-truck thru the hole in that particular line of reasoning.
I'm leaning towards onfire on this one, as it does not add O2.
Oh and I use Meth (blended 50/50 with water) on my normally aspirated LT4 (I still have not got that STS kit installed!); does it "add power" YES!
Should it be classified / regulated as a true Power Adder like turbos, nitrous, and superchargers? I don't know...
But I do know this, if it is considered a stand-alone Power Adder, then Intercoolers should be too, as they perform the same function.
They all require additional tuning. I say "No" to being a power adder. Otherwise, just as everyone else has said, than you need to ban them all, no race gas, no intercooler, no meth.
07-27-2007, 11:30 AM
#64
Originally Posted by wickedwarlock
Tell that to Texaco, they did a study on fuels back in the early 90s. Fact, higher octane fuels burn slower under same car conditions. So moving, timing, etc would affect how fuel is burned but not under the same conditons. It's been awhile, I'll see if I can dig it up.
First, in both tests I quoted, a chemist from Unocal was contacted about the results, and he agreed that they are as expected, then explained why.
Second, I work at ExxonMobil's 2nd largest refinery (~500kbbl/day). I can very easily get all the numbers (and had them before, but didn't keep them). However, I'm off on vacation until August 6, so it'll be a while.
Mike
07-27-2007, 12:53 PM
#65
Originally Posted by engineermike
You DO realize that octane and burn rate are not completely dependent upon one another, right?
First, in both tests I quoted, a chemist from Unocal was contacted about the results, and he agreed that they are as expected, then explained why.
Second, I work at ExxonMobil's 2nd largest refinery (~500kbbl/day). I can very easily get all the numbers (and had them before, but didn't keep them). However, I'm off on vacation until August 6, so it'll be a while.
Mike
First, in both tests I quoted, a chemist from Unocal was contacted about the results, and he agreed that they are as expected, then explained why.
Second, I work at ExxonMobil's 2nd largest refinery (~500kbbl/day). I can very easily get all the numbers (and had them before, but didn't keep them). However, I'm off on vacation until August 6, so it'll be a while.
Mike
I'm pretty certain it was a Texaco document.
I got a brotherly friend. Well, a friend that I call a brother. His dad works for Chevron, 30 years or more now, damn. I could pull them too I guess.
In all honestly, doesn't matter to me, rofl. Hey, have a good Vacation. I leave the week your coming back.
EDIT: Interesting article: http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDo...ctaneFacts.pdf
Last edited by wickedwarlock; 07-27-2007 at 01:15 PM.
07-27-2007, 01:02 PM
#66
Originally Posted by nmp27
Didnt look to see if it was already posted, but I think the LSX shootout rules said something about it being prohibited in certain classes..
07-27-2007, 01:20 PM
#67
They all require additional tuning?
Originally Posted by wickedwarlock
You can't get any extra power without tuning. Same applies to race gas. Same thing applies to an intercooler. They all require additional tuning.
I don't want to sound agruementative, but the automotive PCM is an amazing contraption and it will adapt internally (i.e. - self-regulate / self-tune) on it's own; for example: I can run on 87 or 93 octane fuel without a 'new tune'.
I can indeed get 'more power' just by activating the Meth system on my car; how much more? I have not done a Dyno before / after comparison so I don't have any dyno graphs to post, but it feels / acts / runs stronger and displays other indicators of more power... (Better ETs, Higher Trap speeds, more damamge to my 10 bolt!, etc...)
Having said that, is it 'optimized' without a tune? No, not at all. But, denser, colder air / more O2 = More Power, regardless if the PCM is externally tuned to take FULL advantage of that extra O2.
If tuning was truely a requirement after every mod, we'd need to do it after adding a K&N air filter!
07-27-2007, 01:24 PM
#68
Originally Posted by great421
WW -
I don't want to sound agruementative, but the automotive PCM is an amazing contraption and it will adapt internally (i.e. - self-regulate / self-tune) on it's own; for example: I can run on 87 or 93 without a new tune.
I can indeed get 'more power' just by activating the Meth system on my car; how much more? I have not done a Dyno before / after comparison so I don't have any dyno graphs to post, but it feels / acts / runs stronger and displays other indicators of more power... (Better ETs, Higher Trap speeds, more damamge to my 10 bolt!, etc...)
Having said that, is it 'optimized' without a tune? No, not at all. But, denser, colder air / more O2 = more power, regardless if the PCM is externally tuned to take FULL advantage of that extra O2.
If tuning was truely a requirement after every mod, we'd need to do it after adding a K&N air filter!
I don't want to sound agruementative, but the automotive PCM is an amazing contraption and it will adapt internally (i.e. - self-regulate / self-tune) on it's own; for example: I can run on 87 or 93 without a new tune.
I can indeed get 'more power' just by activating the Meth system on my car; how much more? I have not done a Dyno before / after comparison so I don't have any dyno graphs to post, but it feels / acts / runs stronger and displays other indicators of more power... (Better ETs, Higher Trap speeds, more damamge to my 10 bolt!, etc...)
Having said that, is it 'optimized' without a tune? No, not at all. But, denser, colder air / more O2 = more power, regardless if the PCM is externally tuned to take FULL advantage of that extra O2.
If tuning was truely a requirement after every mod, we'd need to do it after adding a K&N air filter!
Same applies to an intercooler. Just because the air is cooler doesn't mean I will get more power. The cooler air allows you to run more boost. That's where you get the more power from. Just like fuel, you get the extra power from advancing the timing some.
PCM adjusting or not, won't give you an advantage. If it gained 10% more power, possibly, but I haven't seen any yet gain that kind of power from any without additonal tuning.
try running the car on the same day under similar conditions. Post some time slips. They are not going to be night and day difference.
You will see your biggest gains when you tune the car for 93 octane with the meth. But, I'm not buying the seat of the pants changing without a tune.
Last edited by wickedwarlock; 07-27-2007 at 01:29 PM.
07-27-2007, 02:30 PM
#69
if race gas is allowed in the class then meth should be allowed
if there is a fuel limitation then only water should only be allowed to be sprayed. water was allowed to be sprayed at the pump gas drags.
the above gets you out of the power adder or not arguement completely
if there is a fuel limitation then only water should only be allowed to be sprayed. water was allowed to be sprayed at the pump gas drags.
the above gets you out of the power adder or not arguement completely
07-27-2007, 05:42 PM
#70
I'm not buying the seat of the pants changing...
Originally Posted by wickedwarlock
I'm not buying the seat of the pants changing without a tune.
(Now, the following is completely non-scientific / unreliable info)
FYI -
Both my Pop and my Step-father are drag racers w/ 40+ years under each of their belts; I let them both drive the car with the Meth system OFF then the Meth system ON - they independantly said their "seat-of-the-pants" / 'Butt Dyno' measured about +25 HP. Again, NONE of this is in any way shape or form scientific (so again, feel free to completely dismiss it).
I haven't been to the track this year, as my 3rd 10 bolt is dying and I'm having a local (Greensboro NC) make me a 9 inch, or I'd go to Piedmount Dragway tomorrow and get before / after 60' and 660' info.
If there is a car in your area with Meth, drive it ON and OFF, see for yourself, it does indeed help.
07-27-2007, 06:24 PM
#71
LS1Tech Co-Founder
iTrader: (34)
Why can't I wear flipflops in some restaurants? Oh wait we having an important debate about meth.
The problem with meth is that folks treat it like 200 octane creator when it's more like 100-104 octane creator.
The problem with meth is that folks treat it like 200 octane creator when it's more like 100-104 octane creator.
07-27-2007, 06:52 PM
#72
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Originally Posted by wickedwarlock
I agree, but even putting in 100 octane fuel won't necessarily give you more power. Sure it will adapt some, but nothing to say it's an advantage.
Same applies to an intercooler. Just because the air is cooler doesn't mean I will get more power. The cooler air allows you to run more boost. That's where you get the more power from. Just like fuel, you get the extra power from advancing the timing some.
PCM adjusting or not, won't give you an advantage. If it gained 10% more power, possibly, but I haven't seen any yet gain that kind of power from any without additonal tuning.
try running the car on the same day under similar conditions. Post some time slips. They are not going to be night and day difference.
You will see your biggest gains when you tune the car for 93 octane with the meth. But, I'm not buying the seat of the pants changing without a tune.
Same applies to an intercooler. Just because the air is cooler doesn't mean I will get more power. The cooler air allows you to run more boost. That's where you get the more power from. Just like fuel, you get the extra power from advancing the timing some.
PCM adjusting or not, won't give you an advantage. If it gained 10% more power, possibly, but I haven't seen any yet gain that kind of power from any without additonal tuning.
try running the car on the same day under similar conditions. Post some time slips. They are not going to be night and day difference.
You will see your biggest gains when you tune the car for 93 octane with the meth. But, I'm not buying the seat of the pants changing without a tune.
BTW I still think it's a fuel. I also think it's a band-aid as well but that's a different thread lol.
07-27-2007, 07:20 PM
#73
Originally Posted by nmp27
...I think the LSX shootout rules said something about it being prohibited in certain classes..
Mike
07-27-2007, 07:22 PM
#74
Originally Posted by Drewstein
Boost to boost, by adding meth I will gain rwhp from the cooling properties alone. That is a power adder is it not?
BTW I still think it's a fuel. I also think it's a band-aid as well but that's a different thread lol.
BTW I still think it's a fuel. I also think it's a band-aid as well but that's a different thread lol.
That was all I saying is it adds power, up and above fuel or racing fuel, and there in it self, it could by some need to be class regulated like a power adder.
