Stay D1 or go F1????????
08-09-2007, 09:32 AM
#21
Originally Posted by Websy21
Thanks Bob, but I think I am going D1. This way if I do have regrets I can always upgrade later because It will be quite awhile before I decide to max out this D1. Seems like there are a few guys on here with the 408/D1 combo and happy, all depends on goals I guess. Anything over 700-750rwhp is probably too much for the street anyways, LOL
I think if you are only planning on driving it on the street and don't care to make more power in the future, than you might be better off with the D1. But if you even think that you might want more power or want to go for some good track times then you should go F1. You say you could always upgrade to the F1 in the future but that will be lots of $$$$, where as if you start with the F1 now I think it's only like $400 more. I'm not saying the 408/D1 wont make good power, I'm just saying make sure your goal now is all your going to want because you'll have the D1 maxed out. TS6 is a good example, he said hes running the 3.85 pulley. That's pretty small and hes only making 14psi. If he goes much smaller belt slip is most likely going to become an issue. In comparison, I have a 346/D1 set-up and run the 4.25 pulley making 13-14psi. I plan to go up to 20psi in the future and shouldn't have any problems doing it because I won't have to go to an extremely small pulley. That's why I chose D1 over P1. I could be doing what I'm doing now with a P1 but I would be maxed. Because I went D1 from the start, I have the option to change pulleys for more power in the future. It would be the same for you with your 408/F1, you could run a larger pulley and make around 12psi and get very close to your rwhp goal with out having to stress the blower. Then when you decide you want more you could just swap the pulley and be making a lot more power than the D1 will ever be capable of. I understand the issue with traction but if you don't want issues with traction, why not just stay stock? The more power you make, the faster your capable of going traction or not. I don't know about you but I always seem to want more so I try to plan ahead, it saves a ton of money in the long run. It's an easy decision really, if you never want more than 700-750rwhp just go D1. If you think there's a possibility you might want more go F1.
Sorry for the long post
08-09-2007, 09:49 AM
#22
I used to always say to my buddy that there is no such thing as too much power. I never thought I'd say otherwise, but I never thought that I'd be doing a blown 408 either. But really come on guys, don't you think that over 800rwhp is too mcuh for mainly a street car??? Or am I just being a *****, you can be honest. I have never even been in a car that has come clsoe to this amount, little alone owned one. Where I live its alot more uncommon to possess such a crazy ride. Not fortunate as most of you to grow up around this atmosphere. Correct me if I am wrong, but I'll take your word for it if the F1 really does match up better. I know that I won't be even breaking a sweat with it though becasue I'll just put a large pulley on it right away. Than I'll have to save up for a FMIC, etc and would probably delay my project alot longer because of funds. Its endless, I just thought that the D1/408 was proven enough and would suit my needs more. Heck KP ran the D1 for along time before getting his F1 and he still went back to the D1 becasue of the added issues. He made countless low 9 second passes, I know he had stock cubes but still. Just my theory, but you guys have actually done this and are the guru's here. So will definetly listen. I jsut think that someties its harder for you guys to forsee that other individuals don't have the same goals in mind, maybe not? Yes, I agree that the F1 mathces up with the 408 better, but would it be stupid to run it with the twin 4.5's for now??? 10-12psi??? Than I can always add the FMIC later, or even start spraying the meth with it I guess, than I probably wouldn't really need it then. Even though it wouldn't be as ideal. There are guys who don't even run intercoolers, but don't think that is really feasible at all though. Ok I am spent 
08-09-2007, 10:01 AM
#23
kp's set-up is not a good comparison because he is stock/close to stock cubes. Same with mine, that's why I have the D1. When you upgrade to a 408 you need more from the blower to match the same psi you would have with the 346. You can have a very powerful set-up with the D1, I just don't think it's your best option. You need to decide what you want. If your going to be the most powerful car around with 700rwhp then who cares just use the D1, I just think you might regret it down the road. I'm at close to 700rwhp and I'm just getting used to how to control it on the street and I already want more but I drag race my car and the only reason I want more is for a better time slip. If you don't care about that stuff I'm sure you'll be perfectly happy with the D1.
08-09-2007, 10:19 AM
#24
Ya well thats what I am getting at but I guess plans always do change. Boost is addictive and I may want more later, but how much more. I could probably go up to 14 with the D1 and I am not sure if I would want to pass that without a different setup. I don't want to have the issues of blowing head gaskets, etc. Atleast not all of the time. The big thing that it honestly really boils down to me is the FMIC. I am really unsure of how the 4.5's will run with the F1? Even on 12psi max. I know I'd need it in the future if I decide to boost up but just not sure if I can buck up or not right now. The system costs 850, but defienlty worth it though.
Last edited by Websy21; 08-09-2007 at 10:29 AM.
08-09-2007, 12:22 PM
#25
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FWIW I have a D1SC on a 6.0L iron block 402. CR 8.78:1. Car is S/D tuned and practically a daily driver. Dynoed 675 RWHP/635 RWTQ, and to me, almost too much for the street. I upgraded to 8rib from P1SC kit and had the head upgraded to the D1. Also I am still just running the 3.5 twin intercoolers, may go up to the 4.5's but have had zero problems as of yet. Car accelerates like crazy and I have not run out of blower. Puts out 13.5 psi with 3.4 pulley. Good luck with whatever the choice.
08-09-2007, 12:30 PM
#26
Originally Posted by E Wagz
FWIW I have a D1SC on a 6.0L iron block 402. CR 8.78:1. Car is S/D tuned and practically a daily driver. Dynoed 675 RWHP/635 RWTQ, and to me, almost too much for the street. I upgraded to 8rib from P1SC kit and had the head upgraded to the D1. Also I am still just running the 3.5 twin intercoolers, may go up to the 4.5's but have had zero problems as of yet. Car accelerates like crazy and I have not run out of blower. Puts out 13.5 psi with 3.4 pulley. Good luck with whatever the choice.
08-09-2007, 02:48 PM
#27
You need to figure out your goals and you really need to at least go for a ride in a 700+ RWHP car. I've owned dozens of cars, ranging from 400-700+ RWHP. Anything over 500 (give or take) is useless on the street. A properly set up car might be able to use 600 RWHP on the street. If I was going to DD a car I'd shoot for 600 RWHP, because at least then I could occasionally feel the acceleration. What I have now is a burnout machine. Its fun, but I could easily get my *** handed to me by an 11 second car on the street.
Rufretic, a 3.85 pulley isn't that small. You make similar boost on a bigger pulley because your motor flows alot less air than mine. Remember, boost is just a measure of the air you're NOT flowing through the engine. I could go to a 3.4 pulley and make more power (might need more octane) and I doubt belt slip will be an issue.
I also looked into going F1, the cons outweighed the pros. Its not a money thing for me, and I could sell my barely used D1SC for alot of the cost. But I primarily use my car on the street and being as its a pump gas only setup, the cons of the F1 weren't worth another 40 or 50 RWHP. If I wanted more power I'd spray a small N2O shot on this and make stupid power.
Rufretic, a 3.85 pulley isn't that small. You make similar boost on a bigger pulley because your motor flows alot less air than mine. Remember, boost is just a measure of the air you're NOT flowing through the engine. I could go to a 3.4 pulley and make more power (might need more octane) and I doubt belt slip will be an issue.
I also looked into going F1, the cons outweighed the pros. Its not a money thing for me, and I could sell my barely used D1SC for alot of the cost. But I primarily use my car on the street and being as its a pump gas only setup, the cons of the F1 weren't worth another 40 or 50 RWHP. If I wanted more power I'd spray a small N2O shot on this and make stupid power.
08-09-2007, 03:16 PM
#28
Originally Posted by TS6
You need to figure out your goals and you really need to at least go for a ride in a 700+ RWHP car. I've owned dozens of cars, ranging from 400-700+ RWHP. Anything over 500 (give or take) is useless on the street. A properly set up car might be able to use 600 RWHP on the street. If I was going to DD a car I'd shoot for 600 RWHP, because at least then I could occasionally feel the acceleration. What I have now is a burnout machine. Its fun, but I could easily get my *** handed to me by an 11 second car on the street.
Rufretic, a 3.85 pulley isn't that small. You make similar boost on a bigger pulley because your motor flows alot less air than mine. Remember, boost is just a measure of the air you're NOT flowing through the engine. I could go to a 3.4 pulley and make more power (might need more octane) and I doubt belt slip will be an issue.
I also looked into going F1, the cons outweighed the pros. Its not a money thing for me, and I could sell my barely used D1SC for alot of the cost. But I primarily use my car on the street and being as its a pump gas only setup, the cons of the F1 weren't worth another 40 or 50 RWHP. If I wanted more power I'd spray a small N2O shot on this and make stupid power.
Rufretic, a 3.85 pulley isn't that small. You make similar boost on a bigger pulley because your motor flows alot less air than mine. Remember, boost is just a measure of the air you're NOT flowing through the engine. I could go to a 3.4 pulley and make more power (might need more octane) and I doubt belt slip will be an issue.
I also looked into going F1, the cons outweighed the pros. Its not a money thing for me, and I could sell my barely used D1SC for alot of the cost. But I primarily use my car on the street and being as its a pump gas only setup, the cons of the F1 weren't worth another 40 or 50 RWHP. If I wanted more power I'd spray a small N2O shot on this and make stupid power.
08-09-2007, 03:34 PM
#29
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I'll put my 2 cents in, I last dynoed 526, (I just have a crappy vortech with forged stock cubes and a cam) and its fun. I have a a4 with a 3800 stall and 3.23 gears.
from a dig with 18 in 305/35/18 Nittos I will not hook. Maybe if I ran a BFG or M/T drag radial I would hook or maybe spin just a little then go.
I'm used to the car and feel like with about another 100 hp more horsepower it would be just right. It would be alot stronger throughout the rpm range and I would feel more comfortable racing a like a 750 bike.
Any more than that and I feel you would just overpower the pavement no matter how much suspension and sticky tire you have. when you're spinning you aint going nowhere and breaking the tires loose at anything over 50 mph is humbling to say the least.
I think 650 ish rwhp would be around the tops for the street, to still kinda get any traction.
No way in hell you are going to hook 800 rwhp on pavement. plus a car like that acts a hell of a lot more violently and things happen faster than you can react to correct.
Just respect the horsepower, that's all I gotta say. and don't drive high speeds with skinnies unless ya wanna kill yourself.
from a dig with 18 in 305/35/18 Nittos I will not hook. Maybe if I ran a BFG or M/T drag radial I would hook or maybe spin just a little then go.
I'm used to the car and feel like with about another 100 hp more horsepower it would be just right. It would be alot stronger throughout the rpm range and I would feel more comfortable racing a like a 750 bike.
Any more than that and I feel you would just overpower the pavement no matter how much suspension and sticky tire you have. when you're spinning you aint going nowhere and breaking the tires loose at anything over 50 mph is humbling to say the least.
I think 650 ish rwhp would be around the tops for the street, to still kinda get any traction.
No way in hell you are going to hook 800 rwhp on pavement. plus a car like that acts a hell of a lot more violently and things happen faster than you can react to correct.
Just respect the horsepower, that's all I gotta say. and don't drive high speeds with skinnies unless ya wanna kill yourself.
08-09-2007, 03:38 PM
#30
[QUOTE=TS6]Rufretic, a 3.85 pulley isn't that small. You make similar boost on a bigger pulley because your motor flows alot less air than mine. Remember, boost is just a measure of the air you're NOT flowing through the engine. I could go to a 3.4 pulley and make more power (might need more octane) and I doubt belt slip will be an issue. QUOTE]
I know a 346 flows a lot less air than a 408, thats exaclty why I'm saying a F1 is a much better match. You don't have to spin an F1 as hard to push the same amount of air, there for you don't have to use a small pulley on a F1 like you do a D1 to keep up with the air flow of a 408. A D1 can keep up with a 408 to a limit, just like a P1 can keep up with a 346 but only to a limit. If your goals are under that limit then thats fine, I just don't think your taking advantage of the extra cubes.
As for traction, you have to pedal it or set your suspension up better. My car smoked an 11 second mustang and we only got up to around 60mph. I was spinning like crazy but I still managed to pull a few cars out. More power is always better, learning how to use it can get tricky. If you want to stab it and hook then why go FI at all, a cam only car should be more than enough. I never understood the make less power for better traction argument. Dont downgrade power for traction, upgrade traction for the power.
I know a 346 flows a lot less air than a 408, thats exaclty why I'm saying a F1 is a much better match. You don't have to spin an F1 as hard to push the same amount of air, there for you don't have to use a small pulley on a F1 like you do a D1 to keep up with the air flow of a 408. A D1 can keep up with a 408 to a limit, just like a P1 can keep up with a 346 but only to a limit. If your goals are under that limit then thats fine, I just don't think your taking advantage of the extra cubes.
As for traction, you have to pedal it or set your suspension up better. My car smoked an 11 second mustang and we only got up to around 60mph. I was spinning like crazy but I still managed to pull a few cars out. More power is always better, learning how to use it can get tricky. If you want to stab it and hook then why go FI at all, a cam only car should be more than enough. I never understood the make less power for better traction argument. Dont downgrade power for traction, upgrade traction for the power.
08-09-2007, 03:51 PM
#31
A D1 is fine for a 408 but think the combo through.Boost pressure is a measure of backpressure in the intake. I would not go too low on the SCR. Probly 9.5-1 as the lowest,I would run 10-1 comp. for the street for my own car.Also head/Cam choice are critical.
Don't forget about the fuel system.At minimum it should have dual intank pumps with braided fuel lines ect. I would also run a good meth kit.Tuned right it won't use much.
750rwhp is easy with the right combo out of a 408ci/D1.It's the midrange power that makes it fun.
Don't forget about the fuel system.At minimum it should have dual intank pumps with braided fuel lines ect. I would also run a good meth kit.Tuned right it won't use much.
750rwhp is easy with the right combo out of a 408ci/D1.It's the midrange power that makes it fun.
08-09-2007, 04:17 PM
#32
[QUOTE=rufretic] Ok I think that cam only was a lil extreme, not knocking those cars but not even close comparison to FI. I am talking between the difference of 650rwhp-750rwhp, not 350rwhp-450rwhp. My buddy has the PRC Stage 2.5's/MS3 combo in a M6 and the thing is a dog under 4k. I know deciding factors are traction and the driver but I do want alot of power, obviously why I got a 408 and D1 kit. Also got a 9"/chrome moly ds and doing a built trans this winter. Also got a custom external fuel system on its way too. When I do this I want to do it as right as possible (afford) and all at once. Not to get it together to blow the drivetrain and wait a few more months for parts/money. I also have quite a bit done on the suspension, the only thing that might hold me back is a sway bar and springs/shocks. Again, not building a record breaker here. All and all I agree with the F1 matching up with the 408 alot better than the D1, but for my current needs the D1 should suffice. For mainly the street, better midrange power, lower IAT's and still make gobs up top. Its alot easier to upgrade than rather downgrade because its too much/inefficient(running the F1 low) and I don't think I will be unhappy with the D1. Should be a long time if ever at all that it becomes the limiting factor. Like you said, there is always traction issues and just as importantly weight reductions. Which is cheaper while not sacrificing driveabilty and/or maintnence issue that come with the added power/boost. Like I said before, I think that 14psi will be max for me without having to deal with head gaskets, etc going either D1 or F1. I guess the money we throw into our cars, if I need the F1 in the future it will probably won't be the most expensive mod and can sell the D1 too 
It jsut seems to me like if I go F1 than I need an FMIC, and than I need this and that. Everything I have bought so far should work nice with the D1 and save me huge. Plus I get to keep my nice symobolic bird and at a glance I look stock 
Originally Posted by TS6
Rufretic, a 3.85 pulley isn't that small. You make similar boost on a bigger pulley because your motor flows alot less air than mine. Remember, boost is just a measure of the air you're NOT flowing through the engine. I could go to a 3.4 pulley and make more power (might need more octane) and I doubt belt slip will be an issue. QUOTE]
I know a 346 flows a lot less air than a 408, thats exaclty why I'm saying a F1 is a much better match. You don't have to spin an F1 as hard to push the same amount of air, there for you don't have to use a small pulley on a F1 like you do a D1 to keep up with the air flow of a 408. A D1 can keep up with a 408 to a limit, just like a P1 can keep up with a 346 but only to a limit. If your goals are under that limit then thats fine, I just don't think your taking advantage of the extra cubes.
As for traction, you have to pedal it or set your suspension up better. My car smoked an 11 second mustang and we only got up to around 60mph. I was spinning like crazy but I still managed to pull a few cars out. More power is always better, learning how to use it can get tricky. If you want to stab it and hook then why go FI at all, a cam only car should be more than enough. I never understood the make less power for better traction argument. Dont downgrade power for traction, upgrade traction for the power.
I know a 346 flows a lot less air than a 408, thats exaclty why I'm saying a F1 is a much better match. You don't have to spin an F1 as hard to push the same amount of air, there for you don't have to use a small pulley on a F1 like you do a D1 to keep up with the air flow of a 408. A D1 can keep up with a 408 to a limit, just like a P1 can keep up with a 346 but only to a limit. If your goals are under that limit then thats fine, I just don't think your taking advantage of the extra cubes.
As for traction, you have to pedal it or set your suspension up better. My car smoked an 11 second mustang and we only got up to around 60mph. I was spinning like crazy but I still managed to pull a few cars out. More power is always better, learning how to use it can get tricky. If you want to stab it and hook then why go FI at all, a cam only car should be more than enough. I never understood the make less power for better traction argument. Dont downgrade power for traction, upgrade traction for the power.
It jsut seems to me like if I go F1 than I need an FMIC, and than I need this and that. Everything I have bought so far should work nice with the D1 and save me huge. Plus I get to keep my nice symobolic bird and at a glance I look stock
08-09-2007, 04:35 PM
#33
Originally Posted by Slowhawk
A D1 is fine for a 408 but think the combo through.Boost pressure is a measure of backpressure in the intake. I would not go too low on the SCR. Probly 9.5-1 as the lowest,I would run 10-1 comp. for the street for my own car.Also head/Cam choice are critical.
Don't forget about the fuel system.At minimum it should have dual intank pumps with braided fuel lines ect. I would also run a good meth kit.Tuned right it won't use much.
750rwhp is easy with the right combo out of a 408ci/D1.It's the midrange power that makes it fun.
Don't forget about the fuel system.At minimum it should have dual intank pumps with braided fuel lines ect. I would also run a good meth kit.Tuned right it won't use much.
750rwhp is easy with the right combo out of a 408ci/D1.It's the midrange power that makes it fun.
08-09-2007, 05:34 PM
#34
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I made my numbers with a 4.25" pulley on my D1. Trying to step down to a 3.60" and make some real power wasn't possible without belt slip. I'll throw a 3.85" on there but I know that I won't be happy with the output.
Why buy a $15K motor and run it like a girl? Don't pay for 1000hp and settle for 700. Start at 700 and work your way up. Get the F1 and throw a big *** pulley on there to start. Then when you get tired of it all you have to do is change a pulley instead of spend 3 grand on a new head unit. If you have 3 grand you want to burn I'll be more than happy to take it, I even accept paypal.
Why buy a $15K motor and run it like a girl? Don't pay for 1000hp and settle for 700. Start at 700 and work your way up. Get the F1 and throw a big *** pulley on there to start. Then when you get tired of it all you have to do is change a pulley instead of spend 3 grand on a new head unit. If you have 3 grand you want to burn I'll be more than happy to take it, I even accept paypal.
08-09-2007, 06:06 PM
#36
Originally Posted by Got Me SOM
I'll put my 2 cents in, I last dynoed 526, (I just have a crappy vortech with forged stock cubes and a cam) and its fun. I have a a4 with a 3800 stall and 3.23 gears.
from a dig with 18 in 305/35/18 Nittos I will not hook. Maybe if I ran a BFG or M/T drag radial I would hook or maybe spin just a little then go.
I'm used to the car and feel like with about another 100 hp more horsepower it would be just right. It would be alot stronger throughout the rpm range and I would feel more comfortable racing a like a 750 bike.
Any more than that and I feel you would just overpower the pavement no matter how much suspension and sticky tire you have. when you're spinning you aint going nowhere and breaking the tires loose at anything over 50 mph is humbling to say the least.
I think 650 ish rwhp would be around the tops for the street, to still kinda get any traction.
No way in hell you are going to hook 800 rwhp on pavement. plus a car like that acts a hell of a lot more violently and things happen faster than you can react to correct.
Just respect the horsepower, that's all I gotta say. and don't drive high speeds with skinnies unless ya wanna kill yourself.
from a dig with 18 in 305/35/18 Nittos I will not hook. Maybe if I ran a BFG or M/T drag radial I would hook or maybe spin just a little then go.
I'm used to the car and feel like with about another 100 hp more horsepower it would be just right. It would be alot stronger throughout the rpm range and I would feel more comfortable racing a like a 750 bike.
Any more than that and I feel you would just overpower the pavement no matter how much suspension and sticky tire you have. when you're spinning you aint going nowhere and breaking the tires loose at anything over 50 mph is humbling to say the least.
I think 650 ish rwhp would be around the tops for the street, to still kinda get any traction.
No way in hell you are going to hook 800 rwhp on pavement. plus a car like that acts a hell of a lot more violently and things happen faster than you can react to correct.
Just respect the horsepower, that's all I gotta say. and don't drive high speeds with skinnies unless ya wanna kill yourself.
08-09-2007, 08:56 PM
#37
Originally Posted by rufretic
I never understood the make less power for better traction argument. Dont downgrade power for traction, upgrade traction for the power.
You can't find a suspension upgrade I don't have. I run 325/50/15 MT DR's all the time, QA1's, skinnies up front, Spohn drag bar, RT TA, etc. I even carry VHT in the car. Unless the road is prepped, you won't hook 750 RWHP on the street.
My car ran 11.50's all day on the previous H/C setup, and I have no doubt it would have walked your car (or my current combo) on the street. I handed a low 10 second car its *** on an unprepped road. I beat him by several lengths. My car hooked, and hard. But now it overpowers the tires. I don't regret having this much power, but if I was only street racing the car (here anyway, on unprepped roads) I would shoot for 550 RWHP.
Bottom line, you can't go wrong with either choice. Given your ic situation, street use of the car, and power goals, I think the D1 is the right choice. I have discussed going to an F1 with my builder, even he (who stands to profit from it) thinks it will be a marginal gain.
08-09-2007, 10:36 PM
#38
D1 or F1 Good thread being I was and still am in the same boat. I built a LS2 403 over the winter, bought the Procharger kit from Bob at EPP (great guy), and then upgraded to a FMIC, sold the twin 4.5" for the cost of the FMIC and am hem'n & haw'n about it now. I got the F1A for mine based on Bob's recommendation and my input about myself to him.
I am a HP junkie from way back who has had several fast cars, started on the streets made it into the 9's (absolutely useless street power), although with some 30X12 slicks and good concrete I could walk it out and then stand on it after about 100 ft and go, fun car but too much really. Then I went all track and built and raced an outlaw 10.5 car for a few years (7.60's in 1/4). Too much damn money for me. Sold it! Got a couple mild street cars now, one is my 00 Camaro.
Anyway, I like power but I want my Camaro to be a complete driver with cold A/C. I went the Procharger route after riding in a buddy's Vortech blown stock LS1 Z/28 whick makes 490 RWHP. It was a blast and hooked me, then I got carried away and ended up with a 403/F1A/FMIC.
I had all the same reservations you do now and still do so, so I head/cammed my stock engine for now to get my feet wet with the car.Only had it now for 10 months, not to mention it only has 3500 miles on it. I went ahead and did my fuel system, drivetrain inlcuding trans/converter, Moser 9", and chassis/suspension mods in the meantime to set it all up for the Procharged power. Hoping it goes in the High 11's towards the end of the month
I too am on the fence about the F1A mainly because of the added noise, clearance concerns with A/C, and IAT's, and the problem in slowing it down to make small driver type boost. The FMIC was a no-brainer, the twin 4.5"s are limiters in more ways than one with IAT's, overall flow and efficiency, etc. I defintely did not want to hack up my low mileage mint street car either, and haven't yet but after getting into it, whatever I hack is replaceable on the car (front support). Makes me feel a little better. Plus it really isn't that apparant behind the stock SS grille. There are some great ways guys have done them on here without having the BIG OPEN hole look.
Couple of things I have learned is that if you plan to use the SDCE tensioner set-up you cannot slow the F1A down enough to make 12 or so pounds because the 4.25" or larger pulley that is needed will not fit with it. The biggest pulley you can use is the 4.0".
Depending on lots of variables this wiil put the lowest boost at mid teens. That will be alot of power. If you want to keep A/C and run a nice inlet hat on the F1A you will have some issues fitting it all in nicely. My concern right now. What about trans strength, I also have an A4 car, built to the hilt Finishline 4L65E, I like overdrive for street driving. 800+RWHP will most likely kill this, if not less. So is the F1A really pratical.
I have heavily weighed going with the D1 myself for my personal intentions which are really difficult for me to grasp. Once you have gone fast it is really hard to tame yourself, even for your 'street' car. After building many High HP cars, it is definitely better to plan ahead when buying parts, which is what has got me here in the first place.
I see your side clearly. I wish I could experience someones car witht an F1A 402/408 and see how 'streetable' it is. Growing up through the last couple 'heads up' street car racing decades I have learned not everyones opinion of a 'street car' is quite the same. You have to be honest with yourself and know your goals as others have mentioned - "If I could only listen to myself say this"
It appears 750 RWHP is quite doable with a D1 and say 14lbs of boost (again dependant on your engine)from what other site members have proven which also has been proven to go bottom 10's in the 1/4 with average bolt on chassis/suspenion parts, decent drag radials and moderate 60's at FULL weight. And still be able to hear yourself think while enjoying a hamburger on the drive home from the track talking to your buddies on the cell phone.
Damnit I think I just described what I have been looking for.
Good luck deciding, great thread too. Exactly my thoughts. Boils back down to - you can't have your cake and eat it to I suppose
I am a HP junkie from way back who has had several fast cars, started on the streets made it into the 9's (absolutely useless street power), although with some 30X12 slicks and good concrete I could walk it out and then stand on it after about 100 ft and go, fun car but too much really. Then I went all track and built and raced an outlaw 10.5 car for a few years (7.60's in 1/4). Too much damn money for me. Sold it! Got a couple mild street cars now, one is my 00 Camaro.
Anyway, I like power but I want my Camaro to be a complete driver with cold A/C. I went the Procharger route after riding in a buddy's Vortech blown stock LS1 Z/28 whick makes 490 RWHP. It was a blast and hooked me, then I got carried away and ended up with a 403/F1A/FMIC.
I had all the same reservations you do now and still do so, so I head/cammed my stock engine for now to get my feet wet with the car.Only had it now for 10 months, not to mention it only has 3500 miles on it. I went ahead and did my fuel system, drivetrain inlcuding trans/converter, Moser 9", and chassis/suspension mods in the meantime to set it all up for the Procharged power. Hoping it goes in the High 11's towards the end of the month
I too am on the fence about the F1A mainly because of the added noise, clearance concerns with A/C, and IAT's, and the problem in slowing it down to make small driver type boost. The FMIC was a no-brainer, the twin 4.5"s are limiters in more ways than one with IAT's, overall flow and efficiency, etc. I defintely did not want to hack up my low mileage mint street car either, and haven't yet but after getting into it, whatever I hack is replaceable on the car (front support). Makes me feel a little better. Plus it really isn't that apparant behind the stock SS grille. There are some great ways guys have done them on here without having the BIG OPEN hole look.
Couple of things I have learned is that if you plan to use the SDCE tensioner set-up you cannot slow the F1A down enough to make 12 or so pounds because the 4.25" or larger pulley that is needed will not fit with it. The biggest pulley you can use is the 4.0".
Depending on lots of variables this wiil put the lowest boost at mid teens. That will be alot of power. If you want to keep A/C and run a nice inlet hat on the F1A you will have some issues fitting it all in nicely. My concern right now. What about trans strength, I also have an A4 car, built to the hilt Finishline 4L65E, I like overdrive for street driving. 800+RWHP will most likely kill this, if not less. So is the F1A really pratical. I have heavily weighed going with the D1 myself for my personal intentions which are really difficult for me to grasp. Once you have gone fast it is really hard to tame yourself, even for your 'street' car. After building many High HP cars, it is definitely better to plan ahead when buying parts, which is what has got me here in the first place.
I see your side clearly. I wish I could experience someones car witht an F1A 402/408 and see how 'streetable' it is. Growing up through the last couple 'heads up' street car racing decades I have learned not everyones opinion of a 'street car' is quite the same. You have to be honest with yourself and know your goals as others have mentioned - "If I could only listen to myself say this"
It appears 750 RWHP is quite doable with a D1 and say 14lbs of boost (again dependant on your engine)from what other site members have proven which also has been proven to go bottom 10's in the 1/4 with average bolt on chassis/suspenion parts, decent drag radials and moderate 60's at FULL weight. And still be able to hear yourself think while enjoying a hamburger on the drive home from the track talking to your buddies on the cell phone.
Damnit I think I just described what I have been looking for.
Good luck deciding, great thread too. Exactly my thoughts. Boils back down to - you can't have your cake and eat it to I suppose
08-09-2007, 11:15 PM
#39
Originally Posted by helicoil
Good thread being I was and still am in the same boat. I built a LS2 403 over the winter, bought the Procharger kit from Bob at EPP (great guy), and then upgraded to a FMIC, sold the twin 4.5" for the cost of the FMIC and am hem'n & haw'n about it now. I got the F1A for mine based on Bob's recommendation and my input about myself to him.
I am a HP junkie from way back who has had several fast cars, started on the streets made it into the 9's (absolutely useless street power), although with some 30X12 slicks and good concrete I could walk it out and then stand on it after about 100 ft and go, fun car but too much really. Then I went all track and built and raced an outlaw 10.5 car for a few years (7.60's in 1/4). Too much damn money for me. Sold it! Got a couple mild street cars now, one is my 00 Camaro.
Anyway, I like power but I want my Camaro to be a complete driver with cold A/C. I went the Procharger route after riding in a buddy's Vortech blown stock LS1 Z/28 whick makes 490 RWHP. It was a blast and hooked me, then I got carried away and ended up with a 403/F1A/FMIC.
I had all the same reservations you do now and still do so, so I head/cammed my stock engine for now to get my feet wet with the car.Only had it now for 10 months, not to mention it only has 3500 miles on it. I went ahead and did my fuel system, drivetrain inlcuding trans/converter, Moser 9", and chassis/suspension mods in the meantime to set it all up for the Procharged power. Hoping it goes in the High 11's towards the end of the month
I too am on the fence about the F1A mainly because of the added noise, clearance concerns with A/C, and IAT's, and the problem in slowing it down to make small driver type boost. The FMIC was a no-brainer, the twin 4.5"s are limiters in more ways than one with IAT's, overall flow and efficiency, etc. I defintely did not want to hack up my low mileage mint street car either, and haven't yet but after getting into it, whatever I hack is replaceable on the car (front support). Makes me feel a little better. Plus it really isn't that apparant behind the stock SS grille. There are some great ways guys have done them on here without having the BIG OPEN hole look.
Couple of things I have learned is that if you plan to use the SDCE tensioner set-up you cannot slow the F1A down enough to make 12 or so pounds because the 4.25" or larger pulley that is needed will not fit with it. The biggest pulley you can use is the 4.0". Depending on lots of variables this wiil put the lowest boost at mid teens. That will be alot of power. If you want to keep A/C and run a nice inlet hat on the F1A you will have some issues fitting it all in nicely. My concern right now. What about trans strength, I also have an A4 car, built to the hilt Finishline 4L65E, I like overdrive for street driving. 800+RWHP will most likely kill this, if not less. So is the F1A really pratical.
I have heavily weighed going with the D1 myself for my personal intentions which are really difficult for me to grasp. Once you have gone fast it is really hard to tame yourself, even for your 'street' car. After building many High HP cars, it is definitely better to plan ahead when buying parts, which is what has got me here in the first place.
I see your side clearly. I wish I could experience someones car witht an F1A 402/408 and see how 'streetable' it is. Growing up through the last couple 'heads up' street car racing decades I have learned not everyones opinion of a 'street car' is quite the same. You have to be honest with yourself and know your goals as others have mentioned - "If I could only listen to myself say this"
It appears 750 RWHP is quite doable with a D1 and say 14lbs of boost (again dependant on your engine)from what other site members have proven which also has been proven to go bottom 10's in the 1/4 with average bolt on chassis/suspenion parts, decent drag radials and moderate 60's at FULL weight. And still be able to hear yourself think while enjoying a hamburger on the drive home from the track talking to your buddies on the cell phone.
Damnit I think I just described what I have been looking for.
Good luck deciding, great thread too. Exactly my thoughts. Boils back down to - you can't have your cake and eat it to I suppose
I am a HP junkie from way back who has had several fast cars, started on the streets made it into the 9's (absolutely useless street power), although with some 30X12 slicks and good concrete I could walk it out and then stand on it after about 100 ft and go, fun car but too much really. Then I went all track and built and raced an outlaw 10.5 car for a few years (7.60's in 1/4). Too much damn money for me. Sold it! Got a couple mild street cars now, one is my 00 Camaro.
Anyway, I like power but I want my Camaro to be a complete driver with cold A/C. I went the Procharger route after riding in a buddy's Vortech blown stock LS1 Z/28 whick makes 490 RWHP. It was a blast and hooked me, then I got carried away and ended up with a 403/F1A/FMIC.
I had all the same reservations you do now and still do so, so I head/cammed my stock engine for now to get my feet wet with the car.Only had it now for 10 months, not to mention it only has 3500 miles on it. I went ahead and did my fuel system, drivetrain inlcuding trans/converter, Moser 9", and chassis/suspension mods in the meantime to set it all up for the Procharged power. Hoping it goes in the High 11's towards the end of the month
I too am on the fence about the F1A mainly because of the added noise, clearance concerns with A/C, and IAT's, and the problem in slowing it down to make small driver type boost. The FMIC was a no-brainer, the twin 4.5"s are limiters in more ways than one with IAT's, overall flow and efficiency, etc. I defintely did not want to hack up my low mileage mint street car either, and haven't yet but after getting into it, whatever I hack is replaceable on the car (front support). Makes me feel a little better. Plus it really isn't that apparant behind the stock SS grille. There are some great ways guys have done them on here without having the BIG OPEN hole look.
Couple of things I have learned is that if you plan to use the SDCE tensioner set-up you cannot slow the F1A down enough to make 12 or so pounds because the 4.25" or larger pulley that is needed will not fit with it. The biggest pulley you can use is the 4.0".
Depending on lots of variables this wiil put the lowest boost at mid teens. That will be alot of power. If you want to keep A/C and run a nice inlet hat on the F1A you will have some issues fitting it all in nicely. My concern right now. What about trans strength, I also have an A4 car, built to the hilt Finishline 4L65E, I like overdrive for street driving. 800+RWHP will most likely kill this, if not less. So is the F1A really pratical. I have heavily weighed going with the D1 myself for my personal intentions which are really difficult for me to grasp. Once you have gone fast it is really hard to tame yourself, even for your 'street' car. After building many High HP cars, it is definitely better to plan ahead when buying parts, which is what has got me here in the first place.
I see your side clearly. I wish I could experience someones car witht an F1A 402/408 and see how 'streetable' it is. Growing up through the last couple 'heads up' street car racing decades I have learned not everyones opinion of a 'street car' is quite the same. You have to be honest with yourself and know your goals as others have mentioned - "If I could only listen to myself say this"
It appears 750 RWHP is quite doable with a D1 and say 14lbs of boost (again dependant on your engine)from what other site members have proven which also has been proven to go bottom 10's in the 1/4 with average bolt on chassis/suspenion parts, decent drag radials and moderate 60's at FULL weight. And still be able to hear yourself think while enjoying a hamburger on the drive home from the track talking to your buddies on the cell phone.
Damnit I think I just described what I have been looking for.
Good luck deciding, great thread too. Exactly my thoughts. Boils back down to - you can't have your cake and eat it to I suppose
08-09-2007, 11:29 PM
#40
Originally Posted by TS6
You can't find a suspension upgrade I don't have. I run 325/50/15 MT DR's all the time, QA1's, skinnies up front, Spohn drag bar, RT TA, etc. I even carry VHT in the car. Unless the road is prepped, you won't hook 750 RWHP on the street.
My car ran 11.50's all day on the previous H/C setup, and I have no doubt it would have walked your car (or my current combo) on the street. I handed a low 10 second car its *** on an unprepped road. I beat him by several lengths. My car hooked, and hard. But now it overpowers the tires. I don't regret having this much power, but if I was only street racing the car (here anyway, on unprepped roads) I would shoot for 550 RWHP.
Bottom line, you can't go wrong with either choice. Given your ic situation, street use of the car, and power goals, I think the D1 is the right choice. I have discussed going to an F1 with my builder, even he (who stands to profit from it) thinks it will be a marginal gain.
My car ran 11.50's all day on the previous H/C setup, and I have no doubt it would have walked your car (or my current combo) on the street. I handed a low 10 second car its *** on an unprepped road. I beat him by several lengths. My car hooked, and hard. But now it overpowers the tires. I don't regret having this much power, but if I was only street racing the car (here anyway, on unprepped roads) I would shoot for 550 RWHP.
Bottom line, you can't go wrong with either choice. Given your ic situation, street use of the car, and power goals, I think the D1 is the right choice. I have discussed going to an F1 with my builder, even he (who stands to profit from it) thinks it will be a marginal gain.