rufretic

iTrader: (37)

Let's not jump to conclusions, just because you can't get your power level to work on the street doesn't mean no one can. It takes some driving skills no doubt but that does not mean an 11 second car should beat a 10 second car on the street. Can it happen? you bet it can but it is driver error. I was running mid 11s when I was cam only and it was a struggle for traction on the street then too. I've learned if your patient for wot, you don't loose that much time. It's when you try and just mash it that your not going anywhere. I think another factor might be a4 or m6 because I'm a4 and I can see it being a lot harder to drive a high hp m6 due to breaking traction with every shift. My car does well on the street but I have full drag suspension, hal shocks and don't forget the 28" Hoosier QTPs. I still have traction issues but not enough to have an 11 second car beat me.

To the op, the more I read your posts the more I think you should go with the D1. It may not be the best set-up but it sounds like it would be a good set-up for your individual needs.

kp

iTrader: (34)

Nothing wrong with either a D1 or F1, my take on it all fwiw.

Bigger blowers make more heat and they take more HP to drive. If you think putting a bigger blower on will help with belt slip (within reasonable pulley diameters) or high IATs you are mistaken.

You can us a 4.25 pulley with an SDCE, takes 5 minute with a grinder to the main bracket so slowing an F1A down isnt a problem. Matter of fact the F1A/SDCE/4.25 is a good combo.

As far as CFM the blower has no idea how many cubic inches the engine is, airflow is airflow and the power the blower is capable of making is what it is. You are going to see results all over the spectrum in both ET and dyno numbers so it just boils down to what you want make power-wise, if a D1 can support it CFM-wise its enough, if it cant it isnt.

I have switched between the F1A and D1 a few times and ran both in different weather conditions and I leave the D1 on the car most of the time still. Just because I run a 346 dont think my numbers arent valid, I have big heads, big cam and big exhaust and turn the rpm pretty high so trust me I'm moving a fair amount of air.

Mian reason I dont leave the F1A on is because of the noise, I dont know if I have a quiet D1 and a loud F1 or not but that F1A is just too much for me and mine is a race car. I can slow it down with the 4.25 pulley and it doesnt make any more boost then the D1/3.4 pulley but damn its loud lol, but some like the noise.

But anyhow, if I was buying new and planning on building a 40x from the start I would go for the F1 or F1A if you dont mind the extra noise. You can pulley it down enough close to a maxed out D1 and not really suffer any drawbacks except a little more parasitic loss, little more heat and you can always pulley it up if you want more down the road (if your drive can handlle it anyhow). If you already have a D1 I would just run it and if its not enough then step it up.

Websy21

iTrader: (34)

Thanks guys and KP was waiting on you, LOL. I knew you have switched back and forth a few times, and yes you do have stock cubes but its the idea. It eats at me a bit to go with a D1 because it matches the 408 better but I really think I won't use it and would really be more efficient with the D1. I think if I decide to go F1 in the far future that my setup should be so extreme that swapping head units shouldn't kill me. This is starting to bug me now, LOL. I just really think that if I go D1 I won't regret it, not for a long time anyways. If I went F1 I might and really I would than feel like a tool to downgrade or would either have to dump more money into the car to make it feasible. D1....F1 ????????? LOL

kp

iTrader: (34)

Really once the car is built and you are truly at the D1s limits the cost of upgrading to an F1 is minimal in the big picture. I know its a tough decision, but if someone told me I could only have one blower I would keep the D1. Its pretty versitile and has a strong low end hit and manageable IATs when its maxed out.

TS6

iTrader: (41)

Thats exactly what it means. I don't give a **** what suspension setup anyone has, you CANNOT hook 750 RWHP on an unprepped road. Can you give it say, 50% throttle and hook? Yes, but then you are obviously not hooking 750 RWHP.

11 second cars beat 10 second cars all the time, traction is king when street racing. If all it took was power it'd be easy. Thats why I don't even look under peoples hoods who I'm racing. I look at tires and suspension. Sure, driver skill plays a role, but with big power on tap you could hit a bad spot in the road and lose bite.

FWIW, the last car I beat when I was running mid 11's runs low 10's and is driven by a very experienced driver. He is a buddy of mine and can drive circles around me. But he couldn't hook better than me, so my slower car took him. I put a gap between us he couldn't close, even when he finally got it hooked.

Websy21

iTrader: (34)

I am with you on that one TS6, I have seen this too. Not at those p levels, but unevenly matched to those standards and with the same results. I would imagine the same if not even worse results once the power gets that significant, the more power the harder the traction issues become. There is that level that becomes virtually impossible to actually hook up and go, lets face it. Yes, you could give it half throttle and hook, once you reach hig second gear than lean on her but you aren't using the power. Not down low anyways and by taht time the lower hp car is gone. Really 3 things in a race, power one of them but more importantly traction and the driver. Anyone can really drive a A4 and if power isn't that dependant on the race than it boils down to traction as most time is does. I wish it was get the most power and put the throttle to the floor and go. LOL, not saying that was what you were leaning towards. I think there is that certain power level that does become almost to much for the street. My buddy has his own perfomance parts company and has sold countless parts to buddy's in F-bodys, etc and all of pretty much running street tires didn't get faster or even slower in some cases once they went to a certain power level. Anywyas, just my .002

rufretic

iTrader: (37)

I agree to disagree
The cars making money street racing are not 11 second cars, trust me, you can lose a lot of money thinking that way. Your not too far from me, maybe we'll run into each other on the street one day and have some fun, I guess since you make more power than me I'll have the advantage so you'll need a couple cars spotted for you, lol. On a serious note, it would be fun to race your car, it would probly be a good race. Lets stop hijacking this guys thread, PM me what track you go to, I plan to go to the grove one night when the weather gets a little cooler in the fall if your interested.

Websy21

iTrader: (34)

Who the F*** do you guys think you are! Just Joking ITs ok not one of those guys who snap, it was kinda interesting seeing you guys debate. I see where you are both coming from, maybe you could race???? LOL. It never really hurts though to ahve more horsepower I guess, even though it may seem pretty damb hard to control the car while trying to use as much of the power as possible. With the best street traction possible and alot of driving expereince I guess the higher horse power car really should win. I think that 750-800rwhp will be plentyful with the D1 both on the street and the track though Thanks for the input though guys! Once I decide and get it together I'll definetly post results, but forwarn it won't be for awhile. Gonna drive it as is for the rest of the season since snow isn't that far away

Drewstein

I can hook mine up on the street. Imagine your face when I fly by...

helicoil

iTrader: (104)

I don't have the all the answers, but I have been stumped by a few things I think you are weighing out also.

One other thing that weighs on my mind are the 60# fuel injectors I plan to run. Doesn't look like they may really support the BIG HP numbers the F1A can churn out spun up. So what is the point? They seem to be more suited to the D1's potential.

I haven't researched it enough to say for sure but I think they may be the limit without the use of Versafueler or different ECU (Fast or Big Stuff) to go to 72's or 96's etc. Seems like this would really be crossing the line from street to race going with that kind of set-up.

There is thread somewhere in the LS2 internal engine from someone (Speedracer5332) or something who recently got going with a F1A/402 and has ran hard at the track. I think he has gone 10.0 at FULL weight with a 6-spd. Something like 14lbs of boost, maybe 16 can't remember. Total street driver.
I think he was up at a real high duty cycle on the 60# injector (Maxed Out). Good thread, he had dyno numbers, etc, not sure if he ever got single digit 1/4 times or not.

Also, what about your header size? I have the Kooks 1 7/8" to only a 3" collector for my F-body. For a 403 making over 900 FWHP (potential with F1A) are they really adequate? I ran blown SBC's for years and remember once when I had a 383"/Littlefiled 8-71/Enderle hat on meth making 1096HP @ 18lbs with iron Dart heads that I ended up going from 1 7/8" Hooker primaries to a set of 2 1/8" stepped to 2 1/4" X 3 .5" collector and picked up from just under 978 FWHP @ 7500RPM to the 1096 FWHP I achieved with just the header swap on the dyno. So depending on what kind of Y-pipe back set-up and muffler you go with it could really damper the potentials of the bigger F1A head unit. Whatever air goes in must go out without restriction. I had planned on a nice cut-out (electric) in the Y-pipe, but still something about that kind of HP and a Y-pipe just don't go together.

The more I think about this build the more I find the inadequacies of the F-body. Trying to achieve a dual role street driven car with race car power is doable to a limit (low 10's), but at some point you will have to convert to all race if the HP bug continues biting. One more item is track legalities, a 9.99 car needs a FULL cage, at least at my nearby track. 11.49 and faster even needs roll bars, definitely not something I would want in my street driver. so if you can't hook the added HP on the streets, you don't want a race car appearance with a cage, etc., or the added noise and HEAT of the BIG head unit along with the header and fuel delivery concerns, not to mention tranny woes, it should be pretty straight forward - D1.

It all boils back down to what do you want. It is always so easy to go bigger, but bigger usually warrants changes in other departments. It is the viscious cycle we all live in the world of performance.

It is easy to get soaked up in the BIG HP dyno numbers and track 1/4 times, but my ? is how do these cars behave as reliable drivers and what have they had removed weight and accessory wise or how much hacking has been done and how tolerable are they for long periods of time are the answers you don't always hear.

Websy21

iTrader: (34)

Helicoil, now thats experience talking. Thats what I need, thanks. You had numerous points that lean me even harder to the D1. Enough really said, for the street the D1 weighs out the F1 alot better. To KP, also another great point by you too. With your amount of experience yo have between the 2, I definetly agee with picking the D1. If all these guys are mostly runnint there F1's at 14-16psi I don't even see the point anyways. Ya you'd work it less and make more power, but not worth the cons that come with it. Thanks again guys, whenever I start to give the F1 one more thought, someone who knows there stuff returns me to my instincts. Keep it coming, this is great!

kp

iTrader: (34)

Thats the thing ,you are not working a F1 less then a D1 by turning it slower, but you are working it less then a F1 turning faster

Point is dont stress over it, start with the smaller blower and if you run out of steam then worry about stepping it up down the road. A D1SC is a very capable and ultra reliable blower, like I said even on a race car the F1A is pretty annoying to me, I would have little interest driving the car around sounding like that and my exhaust isnt exactly quiet. Some people like the noise, I prefer the stealthier approach..

Websy21

iTrader: (34)

Got ya KP on the D1/F1 theory. In essence the D1 will be more efficient, hence take less power and make more on the same boost if not more. Given certain circumstances, IAT's, etc. Unless a guy is gonna go for 14+, tahn the F1 is overkill and inefficient. Like you said you acan always upgrade later and is really a low cost considering the investments we make in our cars. I even keep forgeting about the noise and fitment factors(hacking/intake hat, etc) that come with it. In street applications a persone whould be able to sut bolt and and go, I like the stealth too. Nevermind sounding like a 747!

kp

iTrader: (34)

Like I said some like the noise and to them its part of the experience, nothing wrong with that if you like it.

An F1/F1A will need the radiator moved forward and a little trimming of the core support to get even the stock inlet hat on it. Nothing drastic but if you have A/C it gets a little cramped in there. I dont use the ATI shroud and just have a single 16" fan off to the pass side of the radiator so it was easy to make the F1A fit for me. There is no way the fan setup I have would work on a daily driver with a/c though, even though it is usable with no a/c and moderate cruising under 80 degrees outside but thats about it.

TS6

iTrader: (41)

I go to 41. Well, I did anyway. Who knows what the hell is going on there now.


In all fairness, the guys making money street racing aren't racing on an unprepped street. On a prepped surface its a whole 'nother story, but you know that. The point of my debate is that on a normal road you can't hook our kind of power. The thread poster plans to use this for street duty, which to me means cruising and just general driving. I'm sure there will be some stoplight confrontations too.

Yeah, it would be cool to race you. I actually ran an identical ET to you, but at 135 MPH with a crappy 60'. I bet $$$ my race weight is much higher than yours too. I'll need spots....

The way my life is going I'm never getting to the track again, it sucks. To top it off, no one street races here anymore either. I have the fastest grocery getter in town......

Websy21

iTrader: (34)

Thats awesome to have but sucks when everyone knows they don't have a chance. I could be wrong but I think were I live I'd be close if not in the same shoes after I'm done. I'll have to learn to drive it of coarse. I do want to have full A/C etc and great driveabilty and relaibilty just with gobs of power on tap when I do get to a stop light So saying that the D1 should be better, if I do turn into an absolute HP junky than I guess I'll get the F1. Maybe even the R series

helicoil

iTrader: (104)

Don't know if you had seen this thread awhile back.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...3&page=1&pp=20

I think somewhere in there it mentions he is making 910RWHP (M6) and trapping 141 @ 3750lbs

Decisions, decisions. lol

Websy21

iTrader: (34)

Ya I did see that thread, thats awesome and thanks for making it tougher for me, LOL. No doubt the F1 is more superior for the time slips

kp

iTrader: (34)

3750lbs @ 141mph = 714rwhp.

Websy21

iTrader: (34)

See KP I would never catch that, but you obviously are highly experienced running alot of nice Et's. If I decided to want to reach the single digits, do you suppose it would be possible with my setup and the D1 with minimal weight reduction. Hence full interior street car? All I want is a bad as street car but it would be cool to hit the single digits too if I could