big power with e85 and no intercooler?
12-19-2007, 09:51 AM
#41
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that gets me motivated and excited......Im shooting for 2900lbs and somewhere in that area for power. What gear did you go to. I run real high gears ussually, but I have a 315/60 dr so I went with 3.25's. Later I might try 2.75's or somethng depending on exactly where the car scales at.
12-19-2007, 11:33 AM
#42
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I ran a 4.10 gear with a 28x10.5 slick and it was on the limiter (7800rpm) at 160mph. I changed to 3.55 gears, went 168mph, but don't know the rpm across the finish line, I believe it was in the low 7k range. This was also done with no boost controller and a 14psi spring in the gate and it would show 18psi on the dyno.
12-19-2007, 02:37 PM
#43
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How much power could I make with straight E85, 96 lb injectors, 2 Bosch 420L fuel pumps, an a/a fmic, 8:1 348ci, and an 88mm turbo? Car did 867rwhp with C16 thru a t400. I'm figuring that's around 1000 hp at the crank.
12-19-2007, 03:44 PM
#44
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The fuel choice changes the table for the 02 sensor and I believe it changes some of the internal calculations. The box was not made for using two different type of fuels, so the 02 reading will be off but should be consistent to help tune. E85 as the primary would be cool if the stations are available by you.
Kurt
Kurt
Kurt, I ran across a tid bit about the bs3. You choose your fuel in setup? And that changes the ve table?So You have to choose gas even if you split fuel types, then would have to convert the gas ve table numbers yourself for meth? Was this good true info, why , or how does ve table change on set up based on fuel type?
O n another note, what about e85 on the primary and meth on the secondary? Do you use the alchohol choice in set up for e85?
O n another note, what about e85 on the primary and meth on the secondary? Do you use the alchohol choice in set up for e85?
12-19-2007, 04:01 PM
#45
(You can use .85 for the brake specific fuel consumption number)
http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx
I would say that you need enough pump to support 75psi + boost reference
to maintain your power level using 96lb injectors.
I don't know the max pressure of the Bosch 420's.
This is the reason that I am going with a belt drive pump for my e85 build.
I want to be able to go back to gas easily if needed, and 160's are not too
friendly on the street.
Good luck!
12-19-2007, 07:54 PM
#46
Check out the calculator on RC's website.
(You can use .85 for the brake specific fuel consumption number)
http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx
I would say that you need enough pump to support 75psi + boost reference
to maintain your power level using 96lb injectors.
I don't know the max pressure of the Bosch 420's.
This is the reason that I am going with a belt drive pump for my e85 build.
I want to be able to go back to gas easily if needed, and 160's are not too
friendly on the street.
Good luck!
(You can use .85 for the brake specific fuel consumption number)
http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx
I would say that you need enough pump to support 75psi + boost reference
to maintain your power level using 96lb injectors.
I don't know the max pressure of the Bosch 420's.
This is the reason that I am going with a belt drive pump for my e85 build.
I want to be able to go back to gas easily if needed, and 160's are not too
friendly on the street.
Good luck!
12-19-2007, 08:59 PM
#47
Yes, you will need a bunch more fuel volume for an E85 tune.
My last procharged setup liked 35%-40% more fuel under power.
As a side note, E85 is MUCH less sensitive to the exact A/F ratio.
You can be quite a bit too rich and the car will still make good power.
I think it will give higher HP "street" cars a much better safety margin
before detonation induced head gasket failures.
My last procharged setup liked 35%-40% more fuel under power.
As a side note, E85 is MUCH less sensitive to the exact A/F ratio.
You can be quite a bit too rich and the car will still make good power.
I think it will give higher HP "street" cars a much better safety margin
before detonation induced head gasket failures.
12-19-2007, 09:56 PM
#48
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Just tossing this out, but what type of changes could be made by running propane on top of the E85? It's kinda far out there, but hell it's work a shot.
If that's to much, then good 'ole giggle gas maybe?
If that's to much, then good 'ole giggle gas maybe?
12-19-2007, 11:15 PM
#49
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The fuel choice changes the table for the 02 sensor and I believe it changes some of the internal calculations. The box was not made for using two different type of fuels, so the 02 reading will be off but should be consistent to help tune. E85 as the primary would be cool if the stations are available by you.
Kurt
Kurt
Also considering a belt drive pump for the secondaries.
12-19-2007, 11:19 PM
#50
I might go this way, we have a few e85 stations, one is pretty close (about a mile), but Ill have to be able to carry lots of fuel, and there isnt much room ofcourse. II guess try it and see, e85 on the primaries and straight meth on the secondaries. Am I right that it would be set up for meth if using e85?
Also considering a belt drive pump for the secondaries.
Also considering a belt drive pump for the secondaries.
e85 would kick *** if it was your only fuel but as the primary fuel of a duel fuel set up doesn't make sence to me.
12-20-2007, 12:24 AM
#51
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I see what your saying, but it is better, esspecially for FI. The other problem is the bs3 is just about the only choice when it comes to runnng a staged injection system, and its not designed for dual fuels so tuning may be more complex if Kurt is right (he probably is) in regards to o2 sensor and ecm calculations based on fuel choice in set up.
Most of these cars are purpose built anyways, meaning I probably wouldnt accidentally go somewhere. I now its 26 miles to the track each way , Ill make maybe 10 passes on a good day, so if I can have a range of 150-200 miles that would be plenty and obviously less with racing. Maybe a 12 gallons of e 85 and 8 of methanol?
Other then that, most trips wold be shorter anyways. A road trip, just reprogram for 87 (you wouldnt use the secndary injectors anyways)
87 and meth was what I talked to K urban about a couple months ago, Im just liking the e85 idea if the tuning is more straight forward, and no one seems to have done it so there is no answer yet.
Most of these cars are purpose built anyways, meaning I probably wouldnt accidentally go somewhere. I now its 26 miles to the track each way , Ill make maybe 10 passes on a good day, so if I can have a range of 150-200 miles that would be plenty and obviously less with racing. Maybe a 12 gallons of e 85 and 8 of methanol?
Other then that, most trips wold be shorter anyways. A road trip, just reprogram for 87 (you wouldnt use the secndary injectors anyways)
87 and meth was what I talked to K urban about a couple months ago, Im just liking the e85 idea if the tuning is more straight forward, and no one seems to have done it so there is no answer yet.
12-20-2007, 01:09 AM
#52
How much power could I make with straight E85, 96 lb injectors, 2 Bosch 420L fuel pumps, an a/a fmic, 8:1 348ci, and an 88mm turbo? Car did 867rwhp with C16 thru a t400. I'm figuring that's around 1000 hp at the crank.
12-20-2007, 01:35 AM
#53
A ECU that would switch for secondary fuel would be cool! The Nova we have is 93 octane in the primary tank with c16 in the secondary tank. It runs 65% C16 at full throttle and 10 gallons of C16 will last over two weeks even with a trip to the dragstrip. I would like to switch that type of car to Methanol as the secondary fuel with higher percentage like 90% methanol at wot so I could dump the intercooler weight. The E85 testing I have done has been very little, but the intercooler effect was not as good as Methanol.
1320, I remember our conversation about dual fuels! Can't wait to see practical use to see how well it does.
Kurt
1320, I remember our conversation about dual fuels! Can't wait to see practical use to see how well it does.
Kurt
you would obviously need to have the secondy systems pump running all the time but thats not that bad these days. could maybe even set it up so you could turn it on and off. then you could still have WOT and normal fuel, but at the press of a switch WOT would meen secondary fuel and hopfully a shead load more boost!!!! i could see this working for the import guys to!
also have you or anyone else got any ideas how Nelson racing do their twin fuel system?? its supposed to switch over at about 900bhp and run through to 1600bhp. any ideas how that might work?? could it work of boost presure??
thanks Chris.
12-20-2007, 04:26 PM
#54
Thread on Nitrous and Propane:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392274$page=1&pp=20
12-20-2007, 05:04 PM
#55
I see what your saying, but it is better, esspecially for FI. The other problem is the bs3 is just about the only choice when it comes to runnng a staged injection system, and its not designed for dual fuels so tuning may be more complex if Kurt is right (he probably is) in regards to o2 sensor and ecm calculations based on fuel choice in set up.
Most of these cars are purpose built anyways, meaning I probably wouldnt accidentally go somewhere. I now its 26 miles to the track each way , Ill make maybe 10 passes on a good day, so if I can have a range of 150-200 miles that would be plenty and obviously less with racing. Maybe a 12 gallons of e 85 and 8 of methanol?
Other then that, most trips wold be shorter anyways. A road trip, just reprogram for 87 (you wouldnt use the secndary injectors anyways)
87 and meth was what I talked to K urban about a couple months ago, Im just liking the e85 idea if the tuning is more straight forward, and no one seems to have done it so there is no answer yet.
Most of these cars are purpose built anyways, meaning I probably wouldnt accidentally go somewhere. I now its 26 miles to the track each way , Ill make maybe 10 passes on a good day, so if I can have a range of 150-200 miles that would be plenty and obviously less with racing. Maybe a 12 gallons of e 85 and 8 of methanol?
Other then that, most trips wold be shorter anyways. A road trip, just reprogram for 87 (you wouldnt use the secndary injectors anyways)
87 and meth was what I talked to K urban about a couple months ago, Im just liking the e85 idea if the tuning is more straight forward, and no one seems to have done it so there is no answer yet.
there are people doing the duel fuel with the squirt right now but it is 4cylinders with 4 high z injectors on map one and 4 low z injectors on the other map. the word is it works well.
from what i am reading and hearing e85 isn't exactly e85. it might be as little as 60% in the winter and varys from pump to pump. i dont think you can just set a tune and forget about it like you can with pump gas or even meth both of wich shouldn't change enough to screw up your tune. with e85 you may need to add a sensor to tell the ecm the % of alcohol and have an adjuster in your tune. not sure if any of the stand alones can do this.
12-21-2007, 02:11 AM
#56
we plan on doing a near 100% switch over so it doesn't matter what fuel you are using for the daily driving. pump gas on one ve map and meth or whatever on a 2nd map. not a % of switch over. just let the pump gas map fade off over 80kpa or so and then fill out the meth map so that it gets you to the fueling you want. it will be a nice and smooth transition. megasquirt/ems pro will do this. the only question is how many low z injectors you can run on each driver. we will be running a few little injectors on the one driver and 8 or more low z injectors on the other driver. we might need to do a little beefing up of some circuits to handle what we are planing.
there are people doing the duel fuel with the squirt right now but it is 4cylinders with 4 high z injectors on map one and 4 low z injectors on the other map. the word is it works well.
from what i am reading and hearing e85 isn't exactly e85. it might be as little as 60% in the winter and varys from pump to pump. i dont think you can just set a tune and forget about it like you can with pump gas or even meth both of wich shouldn't change enough to screw up your tune. with e85 you may need to add a sensor to tell the ecm the % of alcohol and have an adjuster in your tune. not sure if any of the stand alones can do this.
there are people doing the duel fuel with the squirt right now but it is 4cylinders with 4 high z injectors on map one and 4 low z injectors on the other map. the word is it works well.
from what i am reading and hearing e85 isn't exactly e85. it might be as little as 60% in the winter and varys from pump to pump. i dont think you can just set a tune and forget about it like you can with pump gas or even meth both of wich shouldn't change enough to screw up your tune. with e85 you may need to add a sensor to tell the ecm the % of alcohol and have an adjuster in your tune. not sure if any of the stand alones can do this.
thanks Chris.
12-21-2007, 06:04 AM
#57
there is no official switch over. both sets of injectors are each using their own ve map. it just so happens the ve map for the meth injectors is set at 0 for much of the lower map readings. as the map goes up the ve map will come on and ramp up fast at whatever map you decide you want the "switch over" to kick in at. at the same time you can let the ve map for the pump gas injectors fall off down toward 0.
this isn't how it is but another way to look at it is if you had 2 seperate computers each running their own ve map and injectors. thats prety much what we will have but it is set up in one ecm. if the ve map is set to 0 the pulse width will calculate to 0ms and the injectors wont come on so you just keep the good fuel ve map down at 0 till you want the fuel to start kicking in. there wont be any problem with 2 completely diferent fuel types.
this isn't how it is but another way to look at it is if you had 2 seperate computers each running their own ve map and injectors. thats prety much what we will have but it is set up in one ecm. if the ve map is set to 0 the pulse width will calculate to 0ms and the injectors wont come on so you just keep the good fuel ve map down at 0 till you want the fuel to start kicking in. there wont be any problem with 2 completely diferent fuel types.
12-21-2007, 10:30 AM
#58
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I m guessing this would be possible with any system capable of staged injection. Kurt, what do you think? Could you switch the nova over 100% to 116 or are you limited for some reason? It would seem tobe a tuning choice and alittle trickery at what you tell the pcm.
Parish, have you used the ems pro? I saw a breif sales blurb on it, but thats it. It is from ems (austrailia) right? or is it directly related to megasquirt?
Sounded interesting, I run an old ems on my suby powered sand rail, and its simple and effective.
Parish, have you used the ems pro? I saw a breif sales blurb on it, but thats it. It is from ems (austrailia) right? or is it directly related to megasquirt?
Sounded interesting, I run an old ems on my suby powered sand rail, and its simple and effective.
12-21-2007, 12:13 PM
#59
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Pressure drop? Try taking the boost reference off of the manifold. Weight? Try 30ish pounds on a 1000 hp car....BFD (not to mention the HP increase will negate more than the weight). Pipes to blow? Buy good silicone and T-clamps. Cutting of the car....its behind the front fascia/bumper.....BFD. Stealth? Paint the intercooler black.
Anything else?
Spend $200 and intercool it. I seriously don't get the point Parish. You have way too much knowledge not to.
Anything else?
Spend $200 and intercool it. I seriously don't get the point Parish. You have way too much knowledge not to.
$200 1000 HP FMIC??? Where can I buy one???
Okay, back to the subject. What kind, if any, cooling effect does E85 have? What kind of heat drop does a FMIC have? How much does H2O injection drop heat?
Ron
12-21-2007, 12:31 PM
#60
For $200, it sounds like a Ebay OBX intercooler. They dont work bad at all for the money.
The idea that E85 is very inconsistant worrys me. If it can be as low 60% in the winter, what will the rest of the liquid be? 87 octane fuel?
from what i am reading and hearing e85 isn't exactly e85. it might be as little as 60% in the winter and varys from pump to pump. i dont think you can just set a tune and forget about it like you can with pump gas or even meth both of wich shouldn't change enough to screw up your tune. with e85 you may need to add a sensor to tell the ecm the % of alcohol and have an adjuster in your tune. not sure if any of the stand alones can do this.