409 iron block
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From: ft. washington md
409 iron block How much power do you think A 409 stroker would make with 7psi (thats just starters) also AS SII 6.0l FI heads and 581/588 224/228 114 cam? That FI unit is procharger
Re: 409 iron block I would think 7psi would get you over 600rwhp with a 409ci.. Even with lower compression and tuned for boost on motor you should be right around 480rwhp.. NO ONE is going to tell me that 7psi is only worth another 120rwhp or less on a 409ci.. C'mon guys.. If properly tuned it should be deep in the 600's. MMS made 597rwhp on a H/C F-body 346ci with 9lbs of boost.
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From: Raleigh, NC
Re: 409 iron block The issue people keep ignoring is that a motor built for boost does not make as much horsepower as an NA motor of those cubes. YES! It DOES take upping the ante with boost on these motors built for it, to get the horsepower.
AND... if you don't make sure you have enough fuel AND free up the exhaust adequately, you won't be able to crank up the RPMs in the former case or get the best power out of it at the higher RPMs in the latter case.
If you are willing to make your 409 a 10.x:1 or higher compression engine and LIMIT yourself to 7 PSI, yes, 600+ RWHP may be attainable. But, most people design these blower motors to handle at least TWICE that amount of boost, which means it does not start from a high horsepower base, NA.
So... a 409 or 422 may make upwards of 550 RWHP NA. But, depending on the static compression and the cam/head profile to maximize boost with a SC or Turbo, you may only make low to mid 400 RWHP without boost. That requires a gain of 200+ RWHP to hit even the LOW 600's, which means cranking up the boost... and giving it what it needs to get it there.
AND... if you don't make sure you have enough fuel AND free up the exhaust adequately, you won't be able to crank up the RPMs in the former case or get the best power out of it at the higher RPMs in the latter case.
If you are willing to make your 409 a 10.x:1 or higher compression engine and LIMIT yourself to 7 PSI, yes, 600+ RWHP may be attainable. But, most people design these blower motors to handle at least TWICE that amount of boost, which means it does not start from a high horsepower base, NA.
So... a 409 or 422 may make upwards of 550 RWHP NA. But, depending on the static compression and the cam/head profile to maximize boost with a SC or Turbo, you may only make low to mid 400 RWHP without boost. That requires a gain of 200+ RWHP to hit even the LOW 600's, which means cranking up the boost... and giving it what it needs to get it there.
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From: Grove City Ohio/Port Washington L.I sometimes
Re: 409 iron block My old setup was a h/c 370 ci iron block D-1.I made 557 rwhp at 10 psi and went 10.91 at 126.65 into a 30 mph headwind at 3840 lbs.Micheal I agree with you completely.Vince all I'm going to say about MMS is don't believe everything you hear.What are all these high 500 rwhp,346 cars FI cars running at the track.Apparently not very good,my mild tune 91 oct full weight porker was 5th on the boosted list last year.I see 0 MMS cars on the list.650-700 RWHP with FI will require alot more than 10k.If I was building a FI setup it would be forged bottom end 346 with a bunch of boost.Screw the big cubes and boat anchor iron block,just up the boost.
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Re: 409 iron block Everyone always say what are the track times.. I do not go to the track. If I had a 1000rwhp I would not go to the track.. The track is not my thing.. So you think MMS is blowing smoke in our face..? I have no clue.. I guess we would have to ask his customers.. I know it is going to cost more than 10k. If you read what I said.. It says in excess of 10k..
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From: Raleigh, NC
Re: 409 iron block It is HARD to get 700 RWHP out of our cars.
The fueling is a really tough issue, among other things.
To be honest, with the cooling issues and extra weight up front, if I had it to do again, I'd probably do what GWP and I first discussed... bore and stroke an Aluminum block to 383. I may have bit off more than I can chew with the 422. Don't get me wrong... I love it, but I'd prefer my RWHP and RWTQ numbers to be reversed.
The fueling is a really tough issue, among other things.
To be honest, with the cooling issues and extra weight up front, if I had it to do again, I'd probably do what GWP and I first discussed... bore and stroke an Aluminum block to 383. I may have bit off more than I can chew with the 422. Don't get me wrong... I love it, but I'd prefer my RWHP and RWTQ numbers to be reversed.
Re: 409 iron block I was talking to a guy today about stand alone systems.. He mentioned something about Halltech I think.. This guy put it on his 240SX and he runs crazy #'s.. The funny thing is he had to buy GM sensors for it to work.. He told me it pretty much eliminates the maf problem... You can calibrate what ever you want and it goes to speed density.. I was told this thing cost half the price of FAST..
Re: 409 iron block Black in your case you are using a automatic transmission.. You put your setup in my M6 and your current #'s would look VERY different.. That goes back to why use a big cubed'd motor when you can get the same horsepower out of a 346ci.. Unless MMS is fabbing their #'s.. Their setups are making more horsepower on a 346ci than the bigger cubed guys right now. Years ago people were making high 500's on 346ci cars with forced induction, but pushed the limits with limited education on tuning and you know the rest.. When I think of doing something I think about dollar per horsepower.. You would expect a 409ci with even 9.5:1 compression to dyno 480rwhp NA.. If not I would think the investment to go bigger would not be worth it. The individual could have just built a 375ci for the iron durability and saved on the extra work.. Tbyrne and LS1 Motorsports have shown what a iron block could do with a somewhat ok tune.. I still think both of those setups had more in them, but when you are a business you have less time to work your own stuff because you are trying to pay bills at the same time.. If I dropped my car off with a VENDOR after paying in excess of 10k for a procharged or turbocharged 409ci setup they better not call me to come pick up the car until they have consistent 650 to 700rwhp pulls on the dyno and give me a good bill of health on the setup.. The sole purpose is to go fast. Not just to say I have a bigger engine or I have the extra money to dump into the car. I am sure we ALL want to get our moneys worth..
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From: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 409 iron block White SS: Let me throw a few numbers around for you to get an idea of what you should see with the description in the first post.
Let's assume that you'll be building the motor for an eventual increase in boost (what's the point of using the stronger iron block if you're not going to boost ~12-15+ psi, right?). I'm going to assume all fueling and and tuning issues are optimized. Most fully forged 346s that I've seen dyno just motor (~9.0:1 compression) put down ~350/350 to the wheels. Remember, most people don't take the time to fully optimize an NA tune for a blower car. So let's assume that motor under optimized conditions/tune would put down ~370/370. Now we're going to assume 100% efficiency for displacement increase (rarely happens, but again we're working with ballpark numbers...assume slightly lower for real world application). Going from 346 to 409, that puts the NA numbers at ~440/440. Now, you want to run 7psi: 440 * (7/14.7) * 75% + 440 = ~597/597. I'd say that's pretty close (in case it's not obvious, the 7 is the psi proposed to run, 14.7 is sea level pressure, and 75% is a ballpark efficiency for a supercharger).
Sure it's possible to get higher numbers, but I like to keep estimates on the low side so as to not be dissapointed with actual results.
BTW, the cam selection that you've mentioned is a bit small for a 409 (duration wise).
Let's assume that you'll be building the motor for an eventual increase in boost (what's the point of using the stronger iron block if you're not going to boost ~12-15+ psi, right?). I'm going to assume all fueling and and tuning issues are optimized. Most fully forged 346s that I've seen dyno just motor (~9.0:1 compression) put down ~350/350 to the wheels. Remember, most people don't take the time to fully optimize an NA tune for a blower car. So let's assume that motor under optimized conditions/tune would put down ~370/370. Now we're going to assume 100% efficiency for displacement increase (rarely happens, but again we're working with ballpark numbers...assume slightly lower for real world application). Going from 346 to 409, that puts the NA numbers at ~440/440. Now, you want to run 7psi: 440 * (7/14.7) * 75% + 440 = ~597/597. I'd say that's pretty close (in case it's not obvious, the 7 is the psi proposed to run, 14.7 is sea level pressure, and 75% is a ballpark efficiency for a supercharger).
Sure it's possible to get higher numbers, but I like to keep estimates on the low side so as to not be dissapointed with actual results.
BTW, the cam selection that you've mentioned is a bit small for a 409 (duration wise).
Re: 409 iron block I would think 7psi would get you over 600rwhp with a 409ci.. Even with lower compression and tuned for boost on motor you should be right around 480rwhp.. NO ONE is going to tell me that 7psi is only worth another 120rwhp or less on a 409ci.. C'mon guys.. If properly tuned it should be deep in the 600's. MMS made 597rwhp on a H/C F-body 346ci with 9lbs of boost.
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Re: 409 iron block I say do what pro stock and I did. Im making 600 through a T400 and 12 bolt. and im only making 15psi. Ill be going to around 22 with water to air intercooler, so ill be around 700 through a 400 and all this with my little 346.
Re: 409 iron block If what you guys are saying is true.. Two things have come to light here.. MMS is not telling the truth or they are the best tuners for forced induction. Also, Lingenfelter must be using magic to get their bigger cubed cars to EASILY dyno over 600rwhp with a small amount of boost.. Going from 409ci to 427ci is a smaller increase than going from 346ci to 409ci.. The logic of going bigger cubes is a sound idea in the sense of the information we have already learned about the LS1. It seems that when you start to exceed 13lbs of boost is when people start having issues when they use the proper size blower or turbo.. Whether it is lifting heads or warping them.. I do not know if the warping problem has been fixed. If it has then going up in boost for us is only a matter of tuning. Using a bigger engine would suggest the need for less boost to accomplish said horsepower #'s. I would hate to take on a massive project knowing b4 hand that it is doomed to fail because we do not have the knowledge to fully utilize the application we want to use.. Whenever someone post a dyno # the next thing is the cry for that individual to take it to the track.. In the case of forced induction.. Taking it to the track is where we do not see the awesome times OUR forced induction setups should be producing.. Then the excuse is weight. Hell strip the car down while waiting on parts for the forced induction setup.. If we can get NA cars down to 3000lbs. A 3200lb SC'd or Turbo car should be running low 8's or even 7's with the numbers we are pushing. I would really like to know what is going on.. Money does not seem to be the limiting factor..
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From: Raleigh, NC
Re: 409 iron block Lingenfelter Installed Engine Packages:
1997-2003 Corvette LS1 & LS6 package prices
(for 750 RWHP)
Manual transmission: $49,995.00
Automatic transmission upgrade: $2,595.00
Enough money can do a lot.
Take a $15,000 to $20,000 cost, compare that to a $50,000 to $52,250 cost, and tell ME the dollar-per-horsepower comparison you referred to earlier.
1997-2003 Corvette LS1 & LS6 package prices
(for 750 RWHP)
Manual transmission: $49,995.00
Automatic transmission upgrade: $2,595.00
Enough money can do a lot.
Take a $15,000 to $20,000 cost, compare that to a $50,000 to $52,250 cost, and tell ME the dollar-per-horsepower comparison you referred to earlier.
Re: 409 iron block Now we know Lingenfelter is a little pricey. Plus it comes with a 2 year warranty.. Lingenfelter is using the same parts we are, but obviously not the same tuning..
