ALLBOTTLE

iTrader: (13)

You have to adjust all of them to read properly with anything other than gas and they all come with directions, im not sure if they will display AFR properly.

On my AEM guages it does have to be read in lambda. if you put it in AFR units all you get is ERR

dman

iTrader: (5)

i don't understand the guys saying don't rely on meth because the pump could fail. Hell, twin fuel pumps could fail, a connecting rod can fail. We are modifing engines to do what they were not designed to do. Failure is eminent! I see lots of blown up engines running C16 fuel because they are pushed to the limit, so if you plan on pushing your E85 / twin nozzle meth kit to the limit expect breakage as well. I have been running meth for a couple years now. I started using -20* washer fluid at first with a homemade kit consisting of an intank fuel pump (submerged in my fluid container). It worked great for a year until i stepped up to a shurflo pump. I sold the old set-up and the pump still works great for the guy. I now run twin M15 nozzles with 150psi of flowing pressure. With 9:1 comp iron heads i've seen 22psi of boost in the summertime with 26* of total timing (302 Ford engine). I'm also hearing from people that are spraying meth into the turbo inlet with great results, my first thought was NO WAY, as the impeller wheel is somewhat fragile, but so far so good. In fact some are saying spool up has improved as well. If you plan on a multi-nozzle kit I would put the smallest nozzle just after the turbo outlet (M5). Most of the meth will evaporate before it hits the intercooler. Then have a couple of M15's about 6"-12" from the TB. This should keep your inlet temps way down and allow crazy amounts of timing advance and boost pressure with good ole inconsistant E85.

ALLBOTTLE

iTrader: (13)

He does not wan to run an intercooler at all... that mean no heat exchange. He is relying on methanol to cool 250-350* (possilby more depending on boost and back pressure) outlet temps with a turbo that Flows more than 2x the cfm of your turbo.

Im not going to re-read the thread but i dont' believe anyone has mentioned anything about pumps failing. He wants to run the Methanol and e85 for the Octane, it will be hard enough to get the enough fuel into the motor to keep up with the engines demands now multiply it by 100% to get enough to cool the inlet charge.

If you use enough methanol and place the nozzles properly you can actually get sub 0* iat's but you do run the risk of completely washing down the cylinders if anything goes wrong or if you foul a plug.

Anything can fail at any given time we know this, but why add one more thing to the list if you dont have to.

RAACCR

Dman has extensive experience running meth with non-intercooled, as well as intercooled, applications. A lot of thoughts and theories have been tossed around in this thread, so its nice to hear from someone who's actually got personal experience in the subject matter.

I was recently comparing notes with Dman about a few different combinations...in one case, meth alone (no intercooler) was able to reduce IATs about 20* lower than similar intercooled combination without meth. So, given the choice of one or the other, I wouldn't be shy about going with meth.

Spraying meth into the inlet of a turbo is neither dangerous nor damaging if done correctly. It will reduce spool-up times and increase the compressor efficiency if done correctly. Meth is actually preferable to water for pre-turbo applications because it is lighter and flashes faster.

TT632

iTrader: (3)

For simplicity, you could just run 100 % Methanol (motor/boost). Thats how I run my street, ah, I mean drag car. I'm approaching 1100 RWHP with less than 12 lbs of boost with no intercooler and no shared pumps. You keep it simple that way, and your tuning window is much more liberal than that of gasoline (I will never go back to gas in a race car). The down side of course is the upgrades in your fuel system ie. biggest elec pumps (or mechanical), big injectors, plumbing. You should also run an additive such as top lube in your methanol which helps keep corrosion to a minimum.

What your going to see more of in the future is many gasoline motored street/strip cars going to 100% methanol to provide the entire fuel needs for their boost requirements. It solves alot of issues with replumbing your entire fuel system, amongst other issues.

LittleRedZ

iTrader: (5)

I run straight meth no intercooler, runnin 110 octane it worked very well, i used Julios Kit with Twin Nozzle upgrade...highly recomend his stuff is top notch and consistant.
This year i'm stepping up to 116. Having no intercooler alowed me to clock my Ysi almost straight up and i made a custom short pipe to TB with a Big race Vortech BOV.
Shorter intercooler pipes and no intercooler= less restriction also.
A/A is a good street/strip i think but if you only race at the track i say go for it. I drove my around the street some last year like that and its ok but i need a bigger radiator since the hot air constantly blowing into the motor and it gets pretty hot fast.

TT632

iTrader: (3)

That reminds me of the other down issue with Methanols use on the street. In my particular application it was getting less than 3 mpg on the drive to the track. On the other hand I never adjusted my fuel table for low load, steady state conditions. I probably could have gotten it into the 6 mpg range.

ls1408cp

iTrader: (37)

i bought one of Julios Kits. It seems that everyone that has done it has no problem doing it. The ones who have not say dont do it.

ls1408cp

iTrader: (37)

found this on another board posted by Julios


We did a test on a bigger turbo's motor not running an IC and only using methanol for cooling.

Results at 16 PSI were 245-250 turbo out let temps, IAT were 140's. At 25 PSI it was turbo outlet temps 300 degree's, IAT were 170's.

Every PSI boost is 10 degrees. 10 PSI=100 degrees plus ambient. When we did the testing it was 85 degrees outside so pretty much the numbers correllated. The turbo used was a Precision PT88 which at 25 PSI is in its sweet spot.

As far as reducing coolant temps, i've had a few customers relay that when spraying theyre temps come down.

I do know like on my own car when I lift the throttle the intake temps sometime go down into the 50's. With ambient here at 90 degrees(Florida). So the cooling of the intake can have some impact on coolant temps. Probably not a whole lot. Tho the motor doesnt heat soak as much.

When I would run race gas only it would take way longer in between rounds to have the engine cool down. I've probably dropped an easy 15 minutes in between rounds for cooling.

Big Geek

iTrader: (2)

No better kit out there and Julio is a first rate guy. About your original question there is always the option of N2O/methanol. Think of it as a liquid intercooler. (lol) I ran it on my Turbo T and GN. The downside is having to fill the bottle. The upside is that you can make the incoming air as cool as you want it to be.

Jim C.

Big Geek

iTrader: (2)

Was that the test that Cal did a few years ago or was it the one that Julio did? It was pretty interesting stuff as I remember.

Jim C.

ls1408cp

iTrader: (37)

no here is that one


12 pulls were done, the first tests were done on Isopropyl 70/30 after the third run and had the Iso dialed in at 16 PSI, I dropped the ISO out and replaced with straight methanol. Next pull not changing anything.. the motor picked up 10 RWHP across the board. AFR dropped from 12.1 on iso to 11.9 on methanol. So getting rid of the water made more power...shhh..dont tell the other guys this

Turbo outlet temps were 250 at 16 PSI, you can see the thermocouple wire in the bottom pixs, intake air temps were 140's. So we were getting a reduction of approx 40% air temp.

Next pull we did without alcohol and matched the results of the thermocouple probe and IAT sensor inside the intake. That pull was cut short seeing the temps rise pretty steeply.

Time for more boost.. next pull was to up the boost, we ended up with a not too flat curve due to the way the dyno loads the motor/turbo. 23-25 PSI was were it hovered at. Turbo outlet temps were 300's, IAT was in the 170's. Again the same ratio of 40 %. Motor made 670 rwhp at this point(Super Flow Dyno). I asked Cal how much fuel was being replaced at this point??? His answer was 30%.

Next pull we decided to increase the alcohol and see if the temps could further be reduced.. well the temps came down to the 140's.. but the power dropped of to 610 rwhp. Even tho the AFR stayed at 12.0. So there is a point whereby too much will cuase the loss of RWHP.

Next pull..running out of time.. we dropped the C16 out of the tank.. and ran the car on straight methanol. It produced the same results as the previous test.

Next pull we switch the alky kit off, running on straight methanol, and the IAT temps started coming up as well as the injector DC goes to 100% on 160 lb injectors .. shut it down.

That ended the tests due to time. It was past 9 o'clock at night at this point.

So summary.. what we wanted to achieve was the same results as his V3 front mount which weighs 60+ lbs. His car see's aprox 140's at high boost using the V3. We got 170's. We didnt hit the number. Altho his old smaller front mount would see 170's. So its a good guess that if a smaller high flow stock location can be used... and get a 30 degree temp drop out of it.. from 170's to 140's.. we'd replicate the results of the V3. And save on the weight.

Next thing.. tests were done on C16.. no ill effects of using C16 with methanol. The old saying...when you get to the track, switch the alky kit off and run C16.. doesnt hold water

To run straight methanol as a fuel get ready to double up on the injectors.. twice as much is needed to make the same power.

Guys running smaller IC and alky will note that swapping to larger IC a lot of times yields no improvement. This is something I know first hand. At least there is a test performed documenting why..

I have the FAST runs done on the car, the dyno pulls from Super Chips.. just need to figure a way of showing the results.. need some time. As soon as I have something up, i'll post the link.

Would like to thank Cal Hartline for the use of his car as a guinea pig , and the team at Super Chips in Orlando for allowing us to beat on their dyno after hours..

So is Cal taking the kit off??? hehehe...

Lets see the V3 and alky test coming soon...

ls1408cp

iTrader: (37)

my conclusion is it can be done and i am going to do it.

Oh4GTO

iTrader: (46)

Any updates on this setup?