Is there any reason NOT to go with an STS kit?
03-26-2008, 03:13 PM
#41
well, do what you want. Do I like my STS? sometimes, because I can't seem to get the results out of mine that everyone else is getting. Other than that, I would have much rather invested the money into building a NA car and it would have completely destroyed my car compared to what it is right now. Like mentioned above, its a pain in the ***, if you don't take your time and make things perfect (things you aren't going to find anywhere on the STS site) then you'll hate it after a while.
03-26-2008, 04:04 PM
#42
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schantin has some great points on things you need to add to make the kit optimum. however you cant add those up as the same as the procharger kit. if you buy a procharger kit you should upgrade the springs, fuel system, and add a FMIC so those items are a wash. wrapping exhaust is easy and doesnt cost much. making two tail pipes instead of one can be done anytime after the install. i moved my wire harness on drivers side inboard about 3 inches without having to extend the wiring so im not sure why you had to do that.
what im trying to say is there is no bolt on perfect kit. everykit has its pro and cons.
anyone who has FI knows its never as easy as bolting it on and it works great right out of the box. there are things that have to be overcome.
what im trying to say is there is no bolt on perfect kit. everykit has its pro and cons.
anyone who has FI knows its never as easy as bolting it on and it works great right out of the box. there are things that have to be overcome.
03-26-2008, 04:10 PM
#43
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schantin has some great points on things you need to add to make the kit optimum. however you cant add those up as the same as the procharger kit. if you buy a procharger kit you should upgrade the springs, fuel system, and add a FMIC so those items are a wash. wrapping exhaust is easy and doesnt cost much. making two tail pipes instead of one can be done anytime after the install. i moved my wire harness on drivers side inboard about 3 inches without having to extend the wiring so im not sure why you had to do that.
what im trying to say is there is no bolt on perfect kit. everykit has its pro and cons.
anyone who has FI knows its never as easy as bolting it on and it works great right out of the box. there are things that have to be overcome.
what im trying to say is there is no bolt on perfect kit. everykit has its pro and cons.
anyone who has FI knows its never as easy as bolting it on and it works great right out of the box. there are things that have to be overcome.
) Anyhow, my relays are now bolted to the fusebox underhood w/ the wiring along the fenderwell by the hood cable....which in my $0.02 looks cleaner. Referencing the fuel, etc....I was thinking how the Vortech aftercooled kit comes w/ the inline T-Rex pump, 38lb injectors, aftercooler, and handheld tuner. I thought the complete ATI kit also addressed fuel and tuning. Might be wrong on that one, though :unsure:
03-26-2008, 04:12 PM
#44
Buy a procharger and get a belt upgrade =) They also make cog belts and have some pulleys designed to free wheel when it tries to spin in reverse. My friend runs one and has run 8.30's on a 275 60 15 drag radial.
The magnacharger is bad *** for street rpm ranges, as seen by the post of the one duttweiler built that made 950 hp and 850 torque at 2,500 rpm
The magnacharger is bad *** for street rpm ranges, as seen by the post of the one duttweiler built that made 950 hp and 850 torque at 2,500 rpm
03-26-2008, 04:34 PM
#45
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I lengthened the wiring harness cause I couldn't get it to sit where I wanted (retarded I guess ) Anyhow, my relays are now bolted to the fusebox underhood w/ the wiring along the fenderwell by the hood cable....which in my $0.02 looks cleaner. Referencing the fuel, etc....I was thinking how the Vortech aftercooled kit comes w/ the inline T-Rex pump, 38lb injectors, aftercooler, and handheld tuner. I thought the complete ATI kit also addressed fuel and tuning. Might be wrong on that one, though :unsure:
) Anyhow, my relays are now bolted to the fusebox underhood w/ the wiring along the fenderwell by the hood cable....which in my $0.02 looks cleaner. Referencing the fuel, etc....I was thinking how the Vortech aftercooled kit comes w/ the inline T-Rex pump, 38lb injectors, aftercooler, and handheld tuner. I thought the complete ATI kit also addressed fuel and tuning. Might be wrong on that one, though :unsure:personally i would like to get a vette with a kenne belle
Last edited by smoke20; 03-26-2008 at 04:38 PM. Reason: grammar
03-26-2008, 05:05 PM
#46
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Like I said I chased problem after problem. The car make good power on the highway. I was like a domestic supra.
It's just not an efficent system. I made close to 700hp on a mustang dyno. But it didn't translate into a good 1/4 time. From a roll it was ok.
I wouldn't recommend the kit to M6 drivers.
It's just not an efficent system. I made close to 700hp on a mustang dyno. But it didn't translate into a good 1/4 time. From a roll it was ok.
I wouldn't recommend the kit to M6 drivers.
03-26-2008, 05:51 PM
#47
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03-27-2008, 04:49 AM
#50
The STS kits look like a good deal, here is a list of my opinion of them, and why I don't sell them anymore:
1. STS claims that heat is not required to help spool the turbo, that exhaust velocity does the job.
Major retailers of the STS kits sell the kits with exhaust wrap, to help spool the turbo. We have done this at our shop, and it helps quite a bit. It is obvious that the closer to the engine the turbo is mounted, the more efficient it is going to be.
I copied this from the STS website.
"Doesn't heat create the velocity in the exhaust gasses to spool the turbo?
No, heat doesn't create velocity. Heat creates volume. If you look at any of the physics laws for gasses, you will find that pressure and volume and heat are related. PV=NRT is a popular one, The V isn't for velocity, it is for Volume.
The turbine housing is what creates the velocity. The scrolling design that reduces the volume of the exhaust chamber as it scrolls around causes the gasses to have to increase in velocity and pressure to maintain the same flow rate.
Hotter gasses have more volume, thus requiring a higher A/R which in effect means that it starts at say 3" and scrolls down to approximately 1". Lower temperature gasses are denser and have less volume, so they require a lower A/R housing which would start at the same 3" volume, as the turbine housings use standard flanges, and scroll down to say 3/4".
Now if you were to reverse the housings in application, the conventional turbo would spool up extremely quick, at say around 1500 rpm but would cause too much backpressure at higher rpms because the higher volume of gas couldn't squeeze through the 3/4" hole without requiring a lot of pressure to force it through. On the reverse side, the remote mounted turbo with its cooler denser gasses, wouldn't spool up till say around 4000 rpms but once spooled up would make efficient power because it doesn't require hardly any backpressure to push the lower volume of gas through the larger 1" hole."
So I take it the exhaust wrap should not make a difference?
2. You don't want to run catalytic converters with a rear mount turbo. Years ago a guy brought in a Ferrari to us that had a rear mount turbo. One of the catalytic converters internals came apart, as they sometimes do, and parts of it lodged into the turbo, ruining it. I predict that this will be happening to the STS turbo customers.
3. The oil return line is routed into the passenger side oil cap on the STS kits. This line has a habit of coming loose, and spraying oil into the engine compartment. It happened to us, and I have read where it has happened to other people.
These engines already have enough oil returning down through the heads, they don't need more! This is a bad design, and many people are rerouting the oil return line to the oil pan, where it should be in the first place. The problem with running the line to the pan is now you have to drill or punch a hole into the oil pan to run the oil line, unless you remove the oil pan. We recently removed the oil pan on a customer's car, and welded a bung into the pan for the oil return line.
4. The turbo hangs without brackets supporting it, and will sag over time. We add a bracket when we install these kits, I don't link seeing the turbo dangling there.
5. The air filter is in a bad location, as is susceptible to dust, water, dirt, etc. STS offers a cover that goes over the filter, but we found the cover seriously hinders performance. We proved that on our chassis dyno.
6. On the F Body STS kit, a driver side subframe connector cannot be used. STS claims their plumbing that is routed down the driver side does the job of a subframe connector. We find that humorous, at best!
7. The plumbing underneath the car hangs too low in my opinion, and you don't want a lowered car with an STS kit on it.
8. The silicone couplers that are provided with an STS front mount intercooler are thin, and we had two of them blow apart. The intercooler plumbing that was provided with the front mount intercooler option that we ordered for a customer's car was poorly routed, we ended up using our tubing from our front mount kits that we sell.
9. The oil lines sure have a long way to run, from the front to the rear, and back up front. If a leak developed, it could be a quick way to ruin an engine.
10. It would be relatively easy for someone to slide underneath the rear of an STS equipped car, and steal someones turbo.
11. The boost line running back up to the engine from the turbo has silicone couplers at various points along the way, and can blow apart.
12. Any exhaust leaks will diminish the efficiency of a rear mount turbo. Bob
1. STS claims that heat is not required to help spool the turbo, that exhaust velocity does the job.
Major retailers of the STS kits sell the kits with exhaust wrap, to help spool the turbo. We have done this at our shop, and it helps quite a bit. It is obvious that the closer to the engine the turbo is mounted, the more efficient it is going to be.
I copied this from the STS website.
"Doesn't heat create the velocity in the exhaust gasses to spool the turbo?
No, heat doesn't create velocity. Heat creates volume. If you look at any of the physics laws for gasses, you will find that pressure and volume and heat are related. PV=NRT is a popular one, The V isn't for velocity, it is for Volume.
The turbine housing is what creates the velocity. The scrolling design that reduces the volume of the exhaust chamber as it scrolls around causes the gasses to have to increase in velocity and pressure to maintain the same flow rate.
Hotter gasses have more volume, thus requiring a higher A/R which in effect means that it starts at say 3" and scrolls down to approximately 1". Lower temperature gasses are denser and have less volume, so they require a lower A/R housing which would start at the same 3" volume, as the turbine housings use standard flanges, and scroll down to say 3/4".
Now if you were to reverse the housings in application, the conventional turbo would spool up extremely quick, at say around 1500 rpm but would cause too much backpressure at higher rpms because the higher volume of gas couldn't squeeze through the 3/4" hole without requiring a lot of pressure to force it through. On the reverse side, the remote mounted turbo with its cooler denser gasses, wouldn't spool up till say around 4000 rpms but once spooled up would make efficient power because it doesn't require hardly any backpressure to push the lower volume of gas through the larger 1" hole."
So I take it the exhaust wrap should not make a difference?
2. You don't want to run catalytic converters with a rear mount turbo. Years ago a guy brought in a Ferrari to us that had a rear mount turbo. One of the catalytic converters internals came apart, as they sometimes do, and parts of it lodged into the turbo, ruining it. I predict that this will be happening to the STS turbo customers.
3. The oil return line is routed into the passenger side oil cap on the STS kits. This line has a habit of coming loose, and spraying oil into the engine compartment. It happened to us, and I have read where it has happened to other people.
These engines already have enough oil returning down through the heads, they don't need more! This is a bad design, and many people are rerouting the oil return line to the oil pan, where it should be in the first place. The problem with running the line to the pan is now you have to drill or punch a hole into the oil pan to run the oil line, unless you remove the oil pan. We recently removed the oil pan on a customer's car, and welded a bung into the pan for the oil return line.
4. The turbo hangs without brackets supporting it, and will sag over time. We add a bracket when we install these kits, I don't link seeing the turbo dangling there.
5. The air filter is in a bad location, as is susceptible to dust, water, dirt, etc. STS offers a cover that goes over the filter, but we found the cover seriously hinders performance. We proved that on our chassis dyno.
6. On the F Body STS kit, a driver side subframe connector cannot be used. STS claims their plumbing that is routed down the driver side does the job of a subframe connector. We find that humorous, at best!
7. The plumbing underneath the car hangs too low in my opinion, and you don't want a lowered car with an STS kit on it.
8. The silicone couplers that are provided with an STS front mount intercooler are thin, and we had two of them blow apart. The intercooler plumbing that was provided with the front mount intercooler option that we ordered for a customer's car was poorly routed, we ended up using our tubing from our front mount kits that we sell.
9. The oil lines sure have a long way to run, from the front to the rear, and back up front. If a leak developed, it could be a quick way to ruin an engine.
10. It would be relatively easy for someone to slide underneath the rear of an STS equipped car, and steal someones turbo.
11. The boost line running back up to the engine from the turbo has silicone couplers at various points along the way, and can blow apart.
12. Any exhaust leaks will diminish the efficiency of a rear mount turbo. Bob
03-27-2008, 08:40 AM
#51
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after that last post i just realized i should get rid of my set up. i know it has been on the car for the last three years with none of the issues stated above , but damn im scared now. what set up should i go with ???
03-27-2008, 09:24 AM
#52
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exactly. i didnt feel like typing all that out, but in a nutshell.....yes. and i could probably double that list.
not to rag on the guys that have sts kits. i've been there too. and you may be happy with it, and if so, all the power to ya.
a lot of guys will take shots at sts that never had one. well i did, and then moved to a conventional setup, as well as have driven many other FI LSx cars; so i'm not just talking out of my ***
03-27-2008, 11:30 AM
#56
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I doubt it would be fraction of the cost with all the supporting mods that must be changed with it. Good heads cost money. If he goes used he should find a good deal...especially on the sts kit.
03-27-2008, 11:48 AM
#57
I'm not a big fan of the stock STS kit either. It lacks an intercooler comes with a questionable oil pump (seen lots fail) a real small turbo and some questionable advice. The entry price looks good at first but IMO an intercooler is not an optional component. Neither are injectors, upgraded fuel pump and an upgraded valve train. The stock kit can be modded to work well, but it takes some know how on the end users/ installers part. A lot of the issues that STS kits have, regular turbo kits have as well. A turbo kit is not a simple bolt on and make power deal, they all require a ton of tweaking and extra parts (sometimes parts that break from excessive power once you get them working right).
My setup started off as a base STS kit several years ago and the only thing left of it is the subframe pipe. The one thing I do like about them is it keeps the engine as easy to work on as stock, keeps all accessories and it also keeps the temps down (big problem in my climate).
No matter what FI kit you do, you WILL spend a lot of time and money troubleshooting and getting everything to work correctly.
My setup started off as a base STS kit several years ago and the only thing left of it is the subframe pipe. The one thing I do like about them is it keeps the engine as easy to work on as stock, keeps all accessories and it also keeps the temps down (big problem in my climate).
No matter what FI kit you do, you WILL spend a lot of time and money troubleshooting and getting everything to work correctly.
03-27-2008, 12:23 PM
#58
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I agree with Zombie 100%.I started with the basic kit and enjoyed it.But I wanted more just like everyone else.So I changed a few things,upgraded everything and now I just finished the new setup which is a 408 with a 88 rearmount.The car still has the same tune so I didnt lay into to hard but at 10lbs of boost it was great.So I cant wait to get it tuned and see what kind of power it makes.
