Rob Raymer

And you didn't answer my question. Did Ed have A/F graphs to go by? If not, how can it be Ed's fault?

Why would you not have dynoed it already using a wideband?? You've dynoed how many times now??

I don't know of anyone else who has blown the downpipe off. Shawn ran up to 14lbs of boost, and never blew his off in 30,000 miles.

True. You insisted that the supplied 2 1/4" clamp wouldn't fit. I had to OVERNIGHT you a 2 1/2" clamp. You blew it off, just like I told you would. Everyone else is using the 2 1/4" clamp with no issues.

I have no idea. Maybe some of the people who have our kits on built motors will respond here. But I doubt it. They, like many people, don't want to get involved in all of this BS. I know one person who is making nearly the same HP as I was, but it's not my place to say who. Last I heard, he was at 670rwhp with the T-74 and 15lbs of boost. I do know that he plans to be at the Thunder Shootout in November.

Because, as I keep saying, the wastegate was at the WRONG location. The plugs on one side of the engine continually burned leaner than the other. We confirmed it with a dual EGT probe.

YOU ask Ed. It's not my place to ask him. Then you can pay him. The 85mm MAF worked on my car at 707rwhp with Ed's tuning. And it's worked perfectly on every other car he has tuned with our kit. So he obviously knows SOMETHING other people don't.

How many people have tried to give you an answer to this so far?? Heads, cam, intercooler piping leaks, crossover leaks (as you said you have). Any of the above. And believe it or not, maybe even tuning. Since we don't know you valve size, cam size, real headflow numbers, or A/F, how in the world can we truly help you figure it out??? I am not psychic.

Again, why would you not have hooked up a wideband??? That makes NO sense to me at all.
------------------------------------------------

From WARBIRD:

Now wait a minute. Are you trying to tell me that you blew the DOWNPIPE off, meaning you were simply running uncapped, and AND NOW IT DOESN'T RUN HOT ANYMORE??? Maybe we are finally onto something here. I didn't realize you had a 1 3/4" full exhaust system with 2 lo-flow cats in-line.

This whole thing gets more ridiculous by the minute.

Warbird

Rob, you're fucked. I think you are desperately reaching now. You have risen derision and slight of hand in your responses to a new high. I am impressed with your ability to skirt issues and try to shed blame on everyone else while at the same time pretending to answer peoples questions. Are you running for Congress

FYI, I don't remember where I said I blew it off, with the pipes seperated yes I am now running open exhaust. I have no cats, 3" ID exhaust and a BB triflow on the back.

Simple for you: turbo no boost, engine cold, no heat, Hmmmmmmmmmm sounds like the turbo is the issue to sort out.

You can't even keep your own word you've posted twice since. Send me a bill for all you advice, heck it won't even be $0.02 Canadian worth.

CHRISPY

Mac header on pass side, Log manifold, crossover from Mac header and 3inch downpipe after the turbo. Thats it AFAIK

He is running a B&B catback which is highly restrictive IMO at his power level.

BTW I again I am not taking sides in any of this, just providing info as an observer and someone who has driven/raced the car.


Chris

Rob Raymer

Actually, it looks like you're the one who is f'ed! My car has no overheating issues, or power problems. Neither do 99.9% of our other customer's cars. But you know what...you put a big cube, high dollar engine in your car, RE-SLEEVED at that, added a T-74 turbo kit, and now you are upset that you might need to spend $400 on a radiator???!!! Who woulda thought that a bigger cube cube motor might require larger cooling capacity. Hey, did you ever notice how radiators are rated by HP and cubic inch?? What was your STOCK radiator rated at again?? Was it not colder when you drove home from the track at night last nught?? Nah....couldn't have been that. Duh. So what do you have to say about these points?? Please, prove me wrong. I can't wait to hear your logical responses.

Geez...you don't even know what pipe blew off your car! My fault, "separated" from your car.

What issue did I "skirt"??? I said, bring me your car, if there's soemthing wrong with it that's our fault, I'll fix it FREE. FREE I said!!! Are you afraid of what I'll find?? Me thinks so.

Step up.

Malicious

iTrader: (1)

Warbird just by what I've read, regardless of the last 3 pages of crap you and Rob have thrown at each other, you seemed to want a lot of answers about whats happening with your car and I don't remember too many posts where you had anything good to say about the kit. If you dont like it take it off and sell it and build your own. If it works better, woohoo you made something good. If it doesn't are you going to whine to your buddies that helped you make it that it makes your engine run hot or wont hold boost?


Ah man thats gonna get me a warning or a ban

CHRISPY

The only thing I found strange Rob was that on the way to the track yesterday evening in traffic the temp would creep up between the 1/4 and half way mark.

After the clamp mishap it went down to where it was preturbo between 165 and 175 the whole time.

I would just like your thoughts on this. I am not trying to flame at all.

Thanks,
Chris

SScam68

iTrader: (20)

From a third party point of view

1. Rice ETR, do you even have a kit? Or are you just MM spokes person? Seems like he is a big boy and can handle himself

2. MM why are you so hard headed about getting the car on a dyno to check your A/F instead of using Autotap. Pretty well known the stock O2's can't be used to tune. That has been established time and time again. As much money as you have shelled out for your engine, turbo kits etc buying an aftermarket O2 so you can tune on the streets should be chump change. Common sense, you need a wideband to tune.

Another thing, as much trouble as your having why didn't you take Robs offer for getting your car running? You claim the only thing your worried about is holding the boost,Rob could of have done all the troubleshooting and right now you would be enjoying your car!

3. Warbird why in the world did you pay ARE to do the install and you keep tinkering with it. Why dont you let them figure it out, thats what they were paid to do, correct?

Malicious

iTrader: (1)

Restricted flow of the exhaust somewhere? Somethin hindering the exhaust getting out of the engine, thus making it run hotter until the engine is uncapped basically? Seems logical to me honestly.

CHRISPY

That is what I was thinking too. Relatively high backpressure from that B&B. (It only flows around 450-500cfm vs 1000cfm for an ultraflo or Bullet)

I believe he is installing either a high flow muffler or cutout soon so it would be a good experiment to see what happens...

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Malicious we don't ban folks for speaking their mind as long as they are not threatening people or using excessive profanity.

I see Rob offering to go through the car. I am NOT a turbo guy, but I have to say that Rob has not only run 9's in his GN, but he's ran 9's with a turbo LS1 like three years ago. He's shown to me a strong knowledge of how to set up turbo cars. If I had one of his kits I would not ignore his comments about wastegate placement, I would do exactly what he says. As a tangential comment, I know that tuner kits can end up being the bane of one's existence. Selling 1/2 of normal kit to someone who then has issues is frustrating. There are a number of unknown parts that they did not source so they are at a disadvantage when it comes to addressing problems.

I see Warbird's Triflo as being restrictive.

I see MM's not using a wideband as being too thrifty, but potentially at the expense of not figuring out stuff.

I have no seen either individual post an entire list of their mods which would help in figuring out whether or not they are hitting their goals.

2fast4u2c

I'd just like to put a few thoughts out there...

1- Lots of this just looks like he said she said things. Stop arguing about symantics by using realworld factual information. Not well soo and so said this so it's fact etc...

2- Warbird realize that you might be pushing a kit well above its engineered limit. Robs own admission says he has a customer running 14psi. Are you really trying to run 25-30psi? If so realize in the realworld going to a level where others have not tried with the parts you have will without a doubt cost enormous amounts or time and money.

3- Also look at the product you bought. No where could I locate any promised results of any kind. I mean really would you buy a car with no Mpg estimate or for that matter know anything about the engine etc?

4- Have you ever met import guy that had a 500hp or 1000hp fuel pump? I have and not for minute did I think "Oh he must have 1000hp or 500hp". Just because you have a turbo or fuel system to produce huge number does not mean you will be able to reach those goals. Everyone who works on cars knows that your car is only as good as the weakest part. I know you might have hoped that the kit would hold up, but certain parts may not have.

So here is where this whole mess is...

You bought a kit with no gaurantee of results with no written documentation of what will be warrantied if anything. Huge I mean monumetal comsumer mistake. Con artists make millions off of consumers that buy first and ask later.

Rob's kit could be a very nice product and it certainly seems so with nice shiny bits to please the eyes. Rather then complain about a kit that doesn't do what you wanted it to do. You should take full advantage of that someone that sold you a product with no warranty or gaurantee is even around to work with you on the issues.

2fast4u2c

One more thing...

Tell me you really didn't take a car that you knew wasn't running well to the racetrack?

If so thank your lucky stars your car isn't in the wall or with a blown motor. Also what about your safety? I mean really would you take a car with a tire full of fix a flat 200mph?

MIGHTYMOUSE

iTrader: (59)

lots of thoughts here
chris, again i appreciate you tuning insight, lord knows you are up there with the best of them, but i am NOT looking for peak hp here, im not looking to nail down the perfect tune.. im just trying to get a fundamental quality of turbocharging to exist on my car.. holding boost through the rev range. soon as it holds boost, ill take it to the best mustang dyno with wideband i can find within a few hours drive

a small leak,(this one i cannot hear, only see carbon deposit on the lip of the flange) would only minorly slow spool time, nothing more.

rob, its frutless to talk about past tunes when the current tune isnt even the issue. for the record, no i was sent a generic turbo tune from him just like you sent out for your turbo kit.. and it pinged like mad at 4psi boost.
-i have dynoed only one time(3 identical pulls) the place had no wideband or of course i would have hooked it up.. not everybody has a wideband.
-warbird and my downpipes have both blown off, that is 10% of your 20 kits sold right there, and we are so far the only ones to publicly run built motors at the track.
i also appreciate you overnighting me that clamp, it was in the box with the 8 intake side clamps that were completely wrong.
thanks for answering those questions. though im not sure why you are taking shots at me, im just looking to make my car run like it should. in response i have called are to re-discuss the heads (which flow numbers i posted a couple days ago) and discuss the cam.. unfortunately are is currently on 'summer holidays' according to the answering machine, so further answers will have to wait.. the others i have allready answered.. no exaust leaks significant to cause boost to drop, that would have to be monsterous.. otherwise it would only affect spool time. i have no intake leaks either, and again no one can show me how tuning will make boost go down vs. rpm.. if they could, i would gladly build a tune following exactly what they say and try it immediately... but they can't so i'm not going to... because a systems ability to support a created boost level cannot be related to a/f or timing within normal working boundaries as i obviously am.

sscam: jarrod has been around since i parked my car in his garage to install the kit.. he knows it in and out as well as i and has had great sucess with his turbo mustang. his views are not protecting me, they are completely independent, although identical. as for me i know i dont have a perfect tune and i know to get one i need to be on a wideband.. no problem.. but im not wasting money on one if the car wont hold boost.. and that has nothing to do with tuning, or as yet has not been proven to have anything to do with tuning... i have never read anywhere how a pretty good tune can allow boost to drop off in an appropriately sized combination and a perfect tune on the same combination holds boost perfectly.. it just doesnt happen like that in a turbo set up.

lastly, rob offered to work on the car when the first manifold sent out was built wrong. that is completely different happening from what i'm dealing with now. i didnt take him up on it because not everybody (not me) had the time or money to get ahold of a trailer and take off work for the couple days that it did fit in his scedule to look over it. robs busy, im busy, it never matched.. i do not know why he needs to bring that up now, as it has nothing to do with the current issue.. asside from the fact that his new turbo kit allready has a history of issues.


woooha

2fast4u2c

I would like to ask...

How the hell did your downpipe blow off? On the QMP site the picture shows it bolted to the turbo housing.

What psi were you at?
If it is not that location then where was the seam that seperated?
If it was not attached with bolts then how was it attached?

Be extremely specific and post pictures. That should get you some help.

SScam68

iTrader: (20)

MM

IMO the best thing to do at this point is figure out how to get the car to Rob and have him take a look at it. Not for the tuning, but for the boost problem.

Malicious

iTrader: (1)

I've seen intercooler pipes blown off but I've never seen a down pipe blown off with any "REASONABLE" amount of boost, aka less than 50 psi and still I think that would be tough. I'm with 2fast, how the hell did it blow off its supposed to be bolted to the turbo housing itself

SS00Blue

Established: MM couldn't program a phone, much less his LS1. For the record, I did try to help, but have been consistently shot down by he, and his intellectual equals (qualifying them all for the trip on the short bus).

Established: Warbird is a loser that never has, nor ever could turn a bolt on his car. Clearly this establishes how he is an expert on all things... ghey.

Established: Rice Eater has never built an LS1/LS6, and the only turbo car he's ever claimed to own had such poor output, that even my personal friend, with whom I work, produces better 331 N/A numbers, and that's without a tune.

Also Established: Rob is the ONLY on that has successfully campaigned a high-horsepower car with no issues, and lesser equipment than the above-mentioned losers are using. Though, in their defense, MM and Warbird have improperly installed and poorly tuned their cars, if in fact, one can classify their stupidity as tuning.

As yet to be seen: I've just received my Yank PT3400/Rossler 4L60E today, 31Jul03. It should be installed within 2 weeks. I hope it is, because I have two arranged matches, as follows:

95 Mustang, 331, 200 shot, 3.73, Tremec T5, 3500lbs.

LS1 Hawk, H/C, full exhaust, intake, 5# Procharger, claimed 420/427 on a Mustang (though we know that the numbers actually suck because centrifugal S/Cs are crap for REAL TQ/HP.

All this potential in my car with a mere, (blow the MM crap motor sky-high, because he ups the boost with no tuning to speak of) EW tune. This tune of course, being a direction I did not originally wish to pursue, however, when I found out how lame the crap tunes are from my original tuner, I just had to go with the best aternative. That would be EW.

As I stated previously: "I'll scan my times in forthwith." For you MM, that means, "as soon as I have them." And when I have my times, I can GUARANTEE you that they'll be better than 18lbs/125mph and 11.8xs. :p

BWAHAHAHAHHAHhahahahaahahahahha!

So Long!

SC-

FWIW: My personal apologies to Rob. He deserves apologies for putting up with the stupidity, ignorance, and comtempt shown by two customers that have NO CLUE of how to make a real car run, and one other idiot, that never has made a car run, much less an LS1... (For the record: MM - Dave Childress - VA, WarBird - (Paul don't know about cars, but can type alot about nothing) - Canada, and SomethingEater (never had a car that had any power but has alot to say about nothing that he's ever understood) - VA.

Warbird

Malicious, I have had many good things to say about the kit in the past and even now. Rob started this thread off with the full intent (check the title again) of flaming me and telling me and ARE what crappy work we did. Truth be told, I have worked with ARE on every modification they have made to the car, from header, to cooling issues and everything in between. Instead of Rob giving constructive input into the process he decided to get defensive and blame ARE for every woe the car has. I believe we have indeed, made improvements to the kit, but Rob seems to only want to get defensive. I have provided evidence time and time again but I keep hearing about these cars that have no issues and I certainly don't believe everything I hear on the internet. Lets not forget that the QMP kit is a warmed over rework of the turbotech kit, I bought it because I thought it would work better on my motor, yes I fell for the hype.

You have made a valid point, and asked a good question. As to taking the kit off my car, got too much into it to back down now. For the most part the car works great and is very reliable and the support of ARE has been fantastic.

So I have a big dollar re-sleeved motor, whats the problem with that, are jealous because I can afford one and you kit as well. BTW I have had a big rad in the car for about a month now and I never balked at the suggestion the car needed one when ARE suggested it. I will not melt a motor by cutting corners. Heck The turbo will be coming off shortly and all the plumbing will be jethot coated and then re-installed.

What are so convinced you are going to find? Tell me, my gaskets are on right, I had all my engine tolerances checked, it's been leaked down and I have the flow numbers. I have seen this engine put together start to finish and I know exactly what's in it. You are so sure it is the engine will you admit your turbo has a problem if everything checks out. I made you a legitimate offer at the beginning of this thread and you totally ingnored it. I offered to take the car to any third party for a tear down. Give me a hint of what you think is wrong and I'll have it looked at.

Put your money where your mouth is.

sscam68, I haven't touched the motor and I certainly don't tinker with it. ARE built it, tuned it, installed the turbo and have been the ones working to figure it out and they have been making progress. ARE has probably installed and tuned about 10 turbo kits to date including Incon, Turbotech, and their C5 TT, this is the only one that caused these kinds of problems and most of those kits were on heavilly built motors as well.

Paul

2fast4u2c

Evidence time and time again?

Ok hold the horses here.

Evidence is supposed to point to a greater truth and is refutable.

Do not work with evidence.
Work in Fact

RICE ETR

iTrader: (3)

well Rob, when TT came out with their kits... they said no tuning was required... eventually after tons of people started popping their engines, guess what, tuning IS required.... now nobody would dare run any sort of FI without tuning...so everyone is safer now...and since there are so few QMP kits out there, the odds are even less.

cause he had A-tap running.... watching all the major parameters.... he only did 3 pulls back to back.

MM did.. as mentioned... it's just a bad design... either the clamp should be stepped to fit the different OD's or better yet it should have been a socket/knuckle type clamp like headers to a Y-pipe utilizing two bolts/nuts.... might be a very slight decrease in flow, but it would never come off, could be removed easily and adjusted to clearance things under the car.

they like many.... don't exist! If they did then they would be having these same problems and you would know how to fix them.

do YOU own a kit?? How much do YOU know about the kit? Did YOU ever help install a QMP kit? Did YOU ever work on fixing the design flaws with it?

I am merely a third party speaking out about what i have seen and know about this kit... if i don't belong in here, then you definitely don't...

ok.. just for the record here....post up your dyno sheets for your daily driven, stock displacement, single turbo car that you tuned and makes this kind of power (on PUMP GAS by the way) even with the falling boost...

what?.... what's that?... you don't have one?...what?...

Yea... his tuning is just horrible...