Boosted 346 w/ AFR 225's cracks 800 RWHP!
04-06-2008, 06:58 PM
#1
Boosted 346 w/ AFR 225's cracks 800 RWHP! Guys,
Just thought I would share some impressive results on behalf of Glenn Dillon (the owner of the car in question) who called me a few months ago questioning whether I thought that number was possible. He already had an impressive combination that was generating consistent results in the high 600's (RWHP) which obviously isn't too shabby for a 346 on pump gas. As Glenn shared with me at the time, any result with an "8" in front of it and he would be ecstatic. I told him that if we optimized everything I thought it was possible, but certainly not "probable". He knew it was a big undertaking knowing part of the challenge was the fact he wanted to retain the same blower (a D1SC which is on the small side for that type of power goal), and he wanted to try and keep the boost level the same (15-16 PSI) because he felt that was the most boost he could run reliably on pump gas....which I also agreed with. He said he wouldn't be horribly upset if we "only made 775", but made it clear he would feel alot better about the money he was about to spend if we nailed 800+....LOL
His original set-up was no slouch so we had our work cut out for us. A brief rundown of his former combination would consist of what Glenn describes as a "max effort" set of ported LS6 castings (done by a very reputable shop) that were fitted with oversize valves, a stock LS6 intake and a ported and epoxied OEM TB, a set of Kooks 1.75 long tubes, and since Glenn wanted to retain smooth stock like driving manners the cam was a bit conservative with 214 on the intake and 224 on the exhaust (around .570 lift) with a 114 LSA.
Lets talk about the new set-up and what we changed in search of trying to nail Glenn's somewhat lofty goals.
We swapped the ported 243 castings for a pair of AFR 225's (PN 1630)....Glenn also opted to have me do some light porting and optimization work to the heads knowing he couldn't afford to leave many stones unturned if he was serious about getting there. After the porting work I milled the heads slightly to match his stockers so the static CR remained the same as his former combo.
Next on the list was the cam....I couldn't get too aggressive here knowing Glenn also valued a more "refined" package so I had Comp grind us a custom cam (XER lobes) with 224 on the intake and 230 on the exhaust but in an effort to keep it street friendly and smooth I ground it on a slightly wider LSA to reduce some of the overlap the bigger lobes introduced (115 LSA). That fact coupled with the shorter seat timing of the XER lobes left us with idle and drivability that matched the original combination....mission accomplished there.
Any of you that have spent more than three days on this board could probably guess the next part to go....yep....lets ditch the LS6 intake set-up in favor of one of my ported 90mm FAST units. Contrary to popular opinion it does help a blower engine much the same as it helps an N/A combo to produce more power....especially one we were trying to move some serious air thru. I also provided Glenn with a ported LS2 TB to compliment the FAST.
Last on the list was the headers....as much as I don't like recommending things to people where they have to spend money twice, this was a situation where it was really warranted if Glenn was serious about trying to nail the 800 mark. He of course joked and reminded me how I liked to help him spend his money
, but he is also tech savvy and knew it was the right move. So the phone call to Kooks was made and he purchased a larger set of their headers with a 1.875 primary pipe.
Last on the list was something more aimed at reliability than actual HP improvement and that was the addition of a set of Yella Terra ultralite rockers (stock 1.7 ratio). The main benefit here is valve guide wear or the lack there of....the Yella Terras leave a very narrow and centered wipe pattern when set up properly and they will literally quadruple your expected service life of the softer bronze guides found in most performance cylinder heads. The stock rockers have a huge wipe pattern and side load the valves considerably. I also feel due to less flex and better geometry the upgraded rockers probably added 3-5 RWHP and that was a nice perk as well, but reliability and reduced guide wear are the larger reasons to purchase these.
So on to the final results posted below....needless to say Glenn was ecstatic and the car feels incredible (when he can get a little traction). What I really like is the fact there was zero loss in power anywhere, and as the RPM's climb and airflow starts to become more important, the curves just start parting ways and in grand fashion at the top end of the power curve. Note the boys at New England Dyno where Glenn tuned and dyno'ed both combo's didn't spend a whole lot of fuss to get to the results you see below. In fact Glenn is already talking about going back to see how much some additional time spent tuning may be worth, but for now he will just have to live with only 805 RWHP on pump gas (with methanol injection btw in both combo's). I don't know if that's a 346 record or not as I don't spend enough time in the forced induction section of the various message boards I visit, but I do know its damn impressive, especially with what I believe to be a large street blower, versus an all out race blower (like an F series) which could have made similar boost at much lower blower speeds (effectively not heating the charge as much and generating more power as a net result).
Congrats Glenn....enjoy the new combination!
Regards,
Tony
PS....Ignore the ASM Motorsports in the dyno gragh. That's there because I downloaded the dyno files Glenn sent me on my home PC. They are actual dyno tests (old combo and new combo) that were both conducted at New England Dyno in Massachusetts which I also mentioned above but wanted to clarify to avoid confusion.
PSS....Dont forget guys these are SAE corrected numbers....in fact notice the correction factor which was .98 (the uncorrected number btw was 825 RWHP which coincidentally would be the exact figure if we posted an STP correction factor).
Just thought I would share some impressive results on behalf of Glenn Dillon (the owner of the car in question) who called me a few months ago questioning whether I thought that number was possible. He already had an impressive combination that was generating consistent results in the high 600's (RWHP) which obviously isn't too shabby for a 346 on pump gas. As Glenn shared with me at the time, any result with an "8" in front of it and he would be ecstatic. I told him that if we optimized everything I thought it was possible, but certainly not "probable". He knew it was a big undertaking knowing part of the challenge was the fact he wanted to retain the same blower (a D1SC which is on the small side for that type of power goal), and he wanted to try and keep the boost level the same (15-16 PSI) because he felt that was the most boost he could run reliably on pump gas....which I also agreed with. He said he wouldn't be horribly upset if we "only made 775", but made it clear he would feel alot better about the money he was about to spend if we nailed 800+....LOL
His original set-up was no slouch so we had our work cut out for us. A brief rundown of his former combination would consist of what Glenn describes as a "max effort" set of ported LS6 castings (done by a very reputable shop) that were fitted with oversize valves, a stock LS6 intake and a ported and epoxied OEM TB, a set of Kooks 1.75 long tubes, and since Glenn wanted to retain smooth stock like driving manners the cam was a bit conservative with 214 on the intake and 224 on the exhaust (around .570 lift) with a 114 LSA.
Lets talk about the new set-up and what we changed in search of trying to nail Glenn's somewhat lofty goals.
We swapped the ported 243 castings for a pair of AFR 225's (PN 1630)....Glenn also opted to have me do some light porting and optimization work to the heads knowing he couldn't afford to leave many stones unturned if he was serious about getting there. After the porting work I milled the heads slightly to match his stockers so the static CR remained the same as his former combo.
Next on the list was the cam....I couldn't get too aggressive here knowing Glenn also valued a more "refined" package so I had Comp grind us a custom cam (XER lobes) with 224 on the intake and 230 on the exhaust but in an effort to keep it street friendly and smooth I ground it on a slightly wider LSA to reduce some of the overlap the bigger lobes introduced (115 LSA). That fact coupled with the shorter seat timing of the XER lobes left us with idle and drivability that matched the original combination....mission accomplished there.
Any of you that have spent more than three days on this board could probably guess the next part to go....yep....lets ditch the LS6 intake set-up in favor of one of my ported 90mm FAST units. Contrary to popular opinion it does help a blower engine much the same as it helps an N/A combo to produce more power....especially one we were trying to move some serious air thru. I also provided Glenn with a ported LS2 TB to compliment the FAST.
Last on the list was the headers....as much as I don't like recommending things to people where they have to spend money twice, this was a situation where it was really warranted if Glenn was serious about trying to nail the 800 mark. He of course joked and reminded me how I liked to help him spend his money
, but he is also tech savvy and knew it was the right move. So the phone call to Kooks was made and he purchased a larger set of their headers with a 1.875 primary pipe.Last on the list was something more aimed at reliability than actual HP improvement and that was the addition of a set of Yella Terra ultralite rockers (stock 1.7 ratio). The main benefit here is valve guide wear or the lack there of....the Yella Terras leave a very narrow and centered wipe pattern when set up properly and they will literally quadruple your expected service life of the softer bronze guides found in most performance cylinder heads. The stock rockers have a huge wipe pattern and side load the valves considerably. I also feel due to less flex and better geometry the upgraded rockers probably added 3-5 RWHP and that was a nice perk as well, but reliability and reduced guide wear are the larger reasons to purchase these.
So on to the final results posted below....needless to say Glenn was ecstatic and the car feels incredible (when he can get a little traction). What I really like is the fact there was zero loss in power anywhere, and as the RPM's climb and airflow starts to become more important, the curves just start parting ways and in grand fashion at the top end of the power curve. Note the boys at New England Dyno where Glenn tuned and dyno'ed both combo's didn't spend a whole lot of fuss to get to the results you see below. In fact Glenn is already talking about going back to see how much some additional time spent tuning may be worth, but for now he will just have to live with only 805 RWHP on pump gas (with methanol injection btw in both combo's). I don't know if that's a 346 record or not as I don't spend enough time in the forced induction section of the various message boards I visit, but I do know its damn impressive, especially with what I believe to be a large street blower, versus an all out race blower (like an F series) which could have made similar boost at much lower blower speeds (effectively not heating the charge as much and generating more power as a net result).
Congrats Glenn....enjoy the new combination!
Regards,
Tony
PS....Ignore the ASM Motorsports in the dyno gragh. That's there because I downloaded the dyno files Glenn sent me on my home PC. They are actual dyno tests (old combo and new combo) that were both conducted at New England Dyno in Massachusetts which I also mentioned above but wanted to clarify to avoid confusion.
PSS....Dont forget guys these are SAE corrected numbers....in fact notice the correction factor which was .98 (the uncorrected number btw was 825 RWHP which coincidentally would be the exact figure if we posted an STP correction factor).
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04-06-2008, 08:53 PM
#8
Thanks guys....
Its a C5 application....I thought I had it in there but there is alot of info so I thought I would clarify that here and make it easy for everyone.
Glenn is pretty stoked....his brand new "R compound" Toyo's arent even close to hooking this power....even in 4th gear he says its dicey when the boost starts to hit.
Good stuff....Im envious once again of the potential a well set up boosted car has....its just insane really.
Tony
Its a C5 application....I thought I had it in there but there is alot of info so I thought I would clarify that here and make it easy for everyone.
Glenn is pretty stoked....his brand new "R compound" Toyo's arent even close to hooking this power....even in 4th gear he says its dicey when the boost starts to hit.
Good stuff....Im envious once again of the potential a well set up boosted car has....its just insane really.
Tony
04-06-2008, 10:31 PM
#10
Glenn also opted to have me do some light porting and optimization work to the heads knowing he couldn't afford to leave many stones unturned if he was serious about getting there. After the porting work I milled the heads slightly to match his stockers so the static CR remained the same as his former combo.
Ive got a set of AFR castings on my turbo 403" that have flowed 356 cfm on a local bench @ 247cc (stg 3 done by TEA)..... if these were available direct from AFR completely done like this, I think they would sell well.
Last edited by SoCalSpd; 04-06-2008 at 10:37 PM.
04-06-2008, 11:43 PM
#12
Just curious...wouldnt it be to everyones benefit if AFR 225's come with this work done out of the box for forced induction apps? If its an improvement then shouldnt it be part of the cnc program without needing the extra work or be available as a part # (like a finished head available direct from AFR)?
Ive got a set of AFR castings on my turbo 403" that have flowed 356 cfm on a local bench @ 247cc (stg 3 done by TEA)..... if these were available direct from AFR completely done like this, I think they would sell well.
Ive got a set of AFR castings on my turbo 403" that have flowed 356 cfm on a local bench @ 247cc (stg 3 done by TEA)..... if these were available direct from AFR completely done like this, I think they would sell well.
You get what you pay for....for the money we charge you cant beat the flow per cc we offer out of the box. It would be impossible to have a guy like me hand finish every head for those last few CFM and sell it even close to what we charge now. Alot of what I do by hand eliminates the stacking of tolerances that are going to be seen on anybody's CNC piece.
If I had to guess I would say the handwork I performed on Glenn's head may have contributed 10-15 RWHP at most. While in this example that was a very important 10-15 (because we needed it to nail Glenn's goal), dont discount the fact that an out of the box 225 and all the other parts I mentioned would have cleared 100 HP over his previous combo without my help.
The extra porting work I have helped a handful of members with on this board (and others) are for the guys that want every pony they can round up and are willing to pay for it. There spending the extra money on all the little details. For most thats an un needed expense and the bottom line is the heads we offer in production trim are excellent quality and fit and finish....anyone thats seen one close up can attest to that.
For those applications needing more (in out of the box trim), Im putting the finishing touches on a larger bolt on cathedral piece right now that has some unique and exciting features....its the best flowing cathedral piece I have seen on my equipment (the only way to compare data) and I have hopes it may even be better when Im finished. It should be available in a few months...
Lets not derail this thread though....this is meant to be a tribute to Glenn's project and emphasize how the right selection of components can make all the difference in the world.
Regards,
Tony
04-07-2008, 07:08 AM
#17
super numbers, Tony-my question is the numbers produced by the cam, meaning what was his idle vacume, and idle rpm
right now i am running a d1sc on my 6.0, 317 heads and z06 cam, edelbrock intake and 850 carb, 9.2 comp forged rods/pistons, intercooler, in my 69 A body, and down the road i have been considering a head/cam change-i kind of gotten fond of the 20 psi of vacume, and great idle, but i can give up a little, just dont want to go back to poor idle like my past cars, lol
i realize the fi will produce a little better idle, but i can tweak the carb a little to get close-thanks Tony
right now i am running a d1sc on my 6.0, 317 heads and z06 cam, edelbrock intake and 850 carb, 9.2 comp forged rods/pistons, intercooler, in my 69 A body, and down the road i have been considering a head/cam change-i kind of gotten fond of the 20 psi of vacume, and great idle, but i can give up a little, just dont want to go back to poor idle like my past cars, lol
i realize the fi will produce a little better idle, but i can tweak the carb a little to get close-thanks Tony
04-07-2008, 01:03 PM
#18
With the advent of alot of new heads on the market its easy to overlook the tried and true, and the reality still is that the AFR 225's are impressive heads offering big area under the curve on the intake and solid peak numbers as well coming in early making those peak numbers even more effective when the rubber hits the pavement. BUT, the area where they really shine is on the exhaust side....forget about some of the other guys advertised numbers (off of different type of flow equipment)....the AFR 225's have the best out of the box exhaust port and with a little romance they are even better. Check my flowthread for more comparitive data off the same flow testing equipment. Some of big exhaust numbers thrown around the net flow 35 CFM less on my machine (and others)....thats a pretty big disparity. Dont just take my work for it....talk to the guys "in the know" thru PMs where they can speak more freely. The hardest part is knowing the right guys who can provide you with objective information.
Anyway, IMO, while the overall package the 225 offers is impressive, its the stellar exhaust port which makes it more common place to see boosted cars with 225's always laying down the smack. In Glenns case I improved the intake and exhaust a little further as previously mentioned so he even had a little extra advantage.
When I was discussing this project with Glenn and crunching numbers in my head (and on paper) these are the figures I was hoping for to help us bump his output close to the 800 mark.
AFR 225's.....50 RWHP
Additional porting.....15 RWHP (in this particular application)
Cam swap (more area under the curve).....25 RWHP
Larger header primiary pipe.....15 RWHP
Yella Terra rockers.....5 RWHP
Total 110 RWHP
Of course some things on paper dont always pan out as expected....this thankfully wasn't one of those occasions.
Whether my math was close or not can obviously be debated (I think it is), but either way we got to destination everyone was hoping for (but not expecting by any means).
Good stuff....
Tony
