turbo sizing?
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single digit dreamer
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From: omaha ne
turbo sizing? what the best way to size a turbo. i see max ratings for turbo's, is that all i should look for? how important is it to stay in that max eficiency range?
if i can get a turbo that will give me the desired hp at 14psi and is at it's max eficiency at that point would that be better than geting a smaller turbo that would get me the needed hp but at the peek of it's flow limit?
i am dreaming of a max effort kind of project, 700+hp street trim and 1000+wp for race trim. looking at this compresor map(twin turbo set up) http://www.turboneticsinc.com/compre...ml?comp=T04E60 i would be in what looks to be the sweet spot for my street mode but could still get to my race mode goal. would this be a good choice?
if i can get a turbo that will give me the desired hp at 14psi and is at it's max eficiency at that point would that be better than geting a smaller turbo that would get me the needed hp but at the peek of it's flow limit?
i am dreaming of a max effort kind of project, 700+hp street trim and 1000+wp for race trim. looking at this compresor map(twin turbo set up) http://www.turboneticsinc.com/compre...ml?comp=T04E60 i would be in what looks to be the sweet spot for my street mode but could still get to my race mode goal. would this be a good choice?
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: malmstrom Air Force Base, Montana
Re: turbo sizing? you need to pay attention to the compressor map because a turbo may be able to support your airflow requirement but not at the pressure ratio you need it at... make sense?
I agree the the 60 trim should work for street trim, but might be a little lacking for race trim. I'm using two PT52's to try to do pretty much the same thing your thinking about
here's a good web site to aid in turbo sizing.
they have a realy cool turbo map calculator.
www.turbofast.com.au
Gary
I agree the the 60 trim should work for street trim, but might be a little lacking for race trim. I'm using two PT52's to try to do pretty much the same thing your thinking about
here's a good web site to aid in turbo sizing.
they have a realy cool turbo map calculator.
www.turbofast.com.au
Gary
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: malmstrom Air Force Base, Montana
Re: turbo sizing? their selection of maps is pretty limited, but you can use the calculatons it gives you and plot it yourself on a different map. www.majesticturbo.com this is a good site to get compressor maps.
Adkoonerstrator
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From: Deep in the seedy underworld of Koonerville
Re: turbo sizing? The more efficient the turbo is in the hp/boost range your expecting will mean less heat which is always good. I think the ones you listed above will be fine for your street setup. They will be working hard in race mode but, will get it.
There is a single though that will be as good or better for street and MUCH better for race mode. I mean it's still VERY efficient at over 1000hp with 25psi.
Check out the map for the T88.
http://www.majesticturbo.com/images/30646-lr.jpg
Also remember to add a few psi to the pressure ratio calculation to take into account any restrictions from the turbo outlet to the intake manifold. If you have alot of bends in the tubing or a restrictive intercooler boost at the turbo could be a couple psi higher than the manifold.
I like the idea of a single turbo and I think plumbing might be easier but, if you go with the twins get 60s at least.
There is a single though that will be as good or better for street and MUCH better for race mode. I mean it's still VERY efficient at over 1000hp with 25psi.
Check out the map for the T88.
http://www.majesticturbo.com/images/30646-lr.jpg
Also remember to add a few psi to the pressure ratio calculation to take into account any restrictions from the turbo outlet to the intake manifold. If you have alot of bends in the tubing or a restrictive intercooler boost at the turbo could be a couple psi higher than the manifold.
I like the idea of a single turbo and I think plumbing might be easier but, if you go with the twins get 60s at least.
Re: turbo sizing? First off
What size engine? That makes a big difference on where you'll end up on the maps.
They've got a new tool up....
http://www.smokemup.com/auto_math/turbo_size.php
Normally i'd run the RPM up on the airflow vs rpm calc, but this does it for you.
How much boost, and what engine determines where on the map you end up. Half the airflow if you plan to run twins.
You want to stay in or near the center island on the compressor map for as long and you can to keep efficieny in your favor.
Don't simply look for peak numbers on the turbo.
What size engine? That makes a big difference on where you'll end up on the maps.
They've got a new tool up....
http://www.smokemup.com/auto_math/turbo_size.php
Normally i'd run the RPM up on the airflow vs rpm calc, but this does it for you.
How much boost, and what engine determines where on the map you end up. Half the airflow if you plan to run twins.
You want to stay in or near the center island on the compressor map for as long and you can to keep efficieny in your favor.
Don't simply look for peak numbers on the turbo.
Adkoonerstrator
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From: Deep in the seedy underworld of Koonerville
Re: turbo sizing? That new calculator is nice but, it doesn't take into account any type of "intercooling"
They need to add an intercooler efficiency spot into the inputs.
I think I'll contact them about that.
They need to add an intercooler efficiency spot into the inputs.
I think I'll contact them about that.
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Re: turbo sizing? yeah, noticed that too.
Since they have the cooler efficiency tool there as well, it shouldn't be too hard to do.
260°+ air makes a HUGE difference over say 100° air.
You get the idea though
Since they have the cooler efficiency tool there as well, it shouldn't be too hard to do.
260°+ air makes a HUGE difference over say 100° air.
You get the idea though
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single digit dreamer
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From: omaha ne
Re: turbo sizing? i plan on a 404-408 forged everything set up, iron block, 8.5-1 compresion. very large intercooler, huge injectors, and try and do it all with the factory computer. i want to be able to make 1000hp but wont be running at that level often, most of the time it will be set at 600-700hp(whatever 100octane will support). not sure on heads, cam, manifolds..... i saw 2 killer turbo motors go thru the clasifieds and hope there is one floating around when i am ready to buy.
edit... whoa!! that t88 has a huge sweet spot, it could be at 78% from 400 up to 1000hp!
, now how do you put a filter on that thing?
edit... whoa!! that t88 has a huge sweet spot, it could be at 78% from 400 up to 1000hp!
, now how do you put a filter on that thing? Adkoonerstrator
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From: Deep in the seedy underworld of Koonerville
Re: turbo sizing? Harlan - I emailed John @ smokemup and he added an intercooler efficiency input into the equation. He didn't use the intercooler output temp to figure density ratio though so I emailed him back about that.
The massflow numbers are off without using the actual intake air temps to figure density ratio, would you agree? The old airflow calculator that used the temp you put in was VERY accurate.
Jim - That 88 is a nice looking compressor ain't it. The best reply I got about a filter is that there are huge filters available, otherwise you're running some screens over it to keep out the big stuff(like neighborhood cats).
He didn't use the intercooler output temp to figure density ratio though so I emailed him back about that. The massflow numbers are off without using the actual intake air temps to figure density ratio, would you agree? The old airflow calculator that used the temp you put in was VERY accurate.
Jim - That 88 is a nice looking compressor ain't it. The best reply I got about a filter is that there are huge filters available, otherwise you're running some screens over it to keep out the big stuff(like neighborhood cats).
Re: turbo sizing? I was going over my log files and I saw this thread so I had to reply. I've been to the site before but never registered.
XLR8NSS... Thanks for the level set on the density ratio. I just put the intercooler in quickly and wasn't thinking clearly (needed more coffee!).
Per your request the intercooler output temperature is taken into account calculating the density ratio. I also added input for single or twin turbo's to make it a little easier.
Enjoy!
XLR8NSS... Thanks for the level set on the density ratio. I just put the intercooler in quickly and wasn't thinking clearly (needed more coffee!).
Per your request the intercooler output temperature is taken into account calculating the density ratio. I also added input for single or twin turbo's to make it a little easier.
Enjoy!
Re: turbo sizing? Very Nice
The old "boostable" airflow calc was VERY accurate. Almost dead on infact
Off to play with the new one
hmmm, still seems a bit low on the massflow. I need to play with it a little more, but it's still cool
The old "boostable" airflow calc was VERY accurate. Almost dead on infact
Off to play with the new one
hmmm, still seems a bit low on the massflow. I need to play with it a little more, but it's still cool
Re: turbo sizing? y2khawk... are you entering different air temp? The reason I ask is because the lb/min is the standard conversion number. I changed it from using the air temp as the basis because the change in air temp alone is not a reflection of the air density. I'd need to add extra parameters like absolute pressure and relative humidity.
I'm surprised when you say the old version gave accurate numbers because that formula assumed ideal conditions.
I'm surprised when you say the old version gave accurate numbers because that formula assumed ideal conditions.
Re: turbo sizing? Well, using the old version I was using data collected from the dyno, as well as measured airflow from the same pulls (in lb/min)
We've got pretty good air here, only a few hundred feet above sea level, and the old version was within a lb or 2 of my data for a given pressure and air temp.
I was using my actual inlet air temp for the input to the old convesion though. Not sure how you had it written.
It just seems that the new version for a given pressure, and tweaking the efficencies to get the temps close to what i saw are resulting in lower than i'd expect on the massflow.
Adding the ability to change from STP would be way cool
Either way, I like the tool. Use it all the time actually
We've got pretty good air here, only a few hundred feet above sea level, and the old version was within a lb or 2 of my data for a given pressure and air temp.
I was using my actual inlet air temp for the input to the old convesion though. Not sure how you had it written.
It just seems that the new version for a given pressure, and tweaking the efficencies to get the temps close to what i saw are resulting in lower than i'd expect on the massflow.
Adding the ability to change from STP would be way cool
Either way, I like the tool. Use it all the time actually
Re: turbo sizing? I can post the old one if you like. I just need to write a blurb explaining which one to use.
Presently I'm working on a timeslip correction calculator. Once I have all the DA math worked out I can easily incorporate that into the turbo calculator.
Do you have a datalog you could send me. I'd love to write some calculators for datalogs. Unfortunatly I do not have a new camaro. Mine is fuel injected, Accel pro ram, but the max sample rate is so slow it's useless, 1 sample second max
Presently I'm working on a timeslip correction calculator. Once I have all the DA math worked out I can easily incorporate that into the turbo calculator.
Do you have a datalog you could send me. I'd love to write some calculators for datalogs. Unfortunatly I do not have a new camaro. Mine is fuel injected, Accel pro ram, but the max sample rate is so slow it's useless, 1 sample second max
Adkoonerstrator
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From: Deep in the seedy underworld of Koonerville
Re: turbo sizing? Hey John
Glad to see you registered over here.
The new calc still seems a little low on mass flow like Harlan mentioned but, is much better than before. Could you post the other one so they can be compared with each other. How do the formulas used for the old and new one differ?
Did I mention that's a great site and I use it daily.
One sample for second , the only thing good about that is the logs would be small files. 
John
Glad to see you registered over here.
The new calc still seems a little low on mass flow like Harlan mentioned but, is much better than before. Could you post the other one so they can be compared with each other. How do the formulas used for the old and new one differ?
Did I mention that's a great site and I use it daily.
One sample for second
, the only thing good about that is the logs would be small files. John
If your interested I added a bunch more GT turbo maps.
GT12, GT15, GT20, GT22, GT28R, GT28RS, GT30R, GT32, GT35, GT35R, & GT37.
Turbo Calculator
GT12, GT15, GT20, GT22, GT28R, GT28RS, GT30R, GT32, GT35, GT35R, & GT37.
Turbo Calculator
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Originally Posted by parish8
i plan on a 404-408 forged everything set up, iron block, 8.5-1 compresion. very large intercooler, huge injectors, and try and do it all with the factory computer. i want to be able to make 1000hp but wont be running at that level often, most of the time it will be set at 600-700hp(whatever 100octane will support). not sure on heads, cam, manifolds..... i saw 2 killer turbo motors go thru the clasifieds and hope there is one floating around when i am ready to buy.
edit... whoa!! that t88 has a huge sweet spot, it could be at 78% from 400 up to 1000hp!, now how do you put a filter on that thing?
edit... whoa!! that t88 has a huge sweet spot, it could be at 78% from 400 up to 1000hp!
, now how do you put a filter on that thing?
