Hey everyone! So I'm pretty certain on doing an E85 supported setup on my 99 Camaro SS. Before you ask why, I'm one of those guys that loves cars, especially his F-Body, but I also have a growing respect for this rock we all live on, so I will do everything in my power to reduce my carbon footprint. If you do not share the same opinion, that's fine but please don't bash mine.

Anyways, my car has 31k miles and is bone stock other than some suspension and an S60 with 4.10's. My current goal towards a setup is looking like the following:

-Modest Cam thats only big enough to safely have rocker arms and valve springs as supporting mods.
-Fast 92 Intake & Throttle Body
-TSP 1 3/4 longtubes with High flow Cats

I have done some research on E85 supporting mods and from I've gathered, I will need larger injectors and a larger fuel pump (size depending on type of power I'm planning on pushing) and of course a dyno tune.

My question is, do you any of you have a similar setup or could recommend a solid size of injectors and fuel pump based on my goals?

At the least, a suggestion for a modest cam? Thanks guys, I appreciate it!

 

Everyone who goes to E85 does it for the racegas like effects it gives, all at a cheaper than 87 octane price (although your fuel mileage on E85 will be MUCH worse, and you'll end up paying as much as premium anyways as you'll have to fill up much more often). E85 keeps things very cool IAT wise and keeps you far away from detonation. This is critical on boosted setups where higher IATs are present, and boost, and timing added put you in a more dangerous position.

Stock cars or cars with your future mods really don't have any added benefit of running E85. Its not going to "gain" you any more power, or keep you safer than you already are with the factory recommended premium fuel.

That being said, if you still think going E85 is right for your car, you'll need fuel pump, lines, connectors and injectors to support E85 (and yes a tune). Its not going to be cheap, and again, for zero added performance or safety, it goes again to question why?

FWIW, Ethanol by the time it is harvested, transported, refined, and delivered has produced more fuel waste and more carbon than just buying regular gasoline does. If you are doing it purely for the tree hugging stuff, you are doing it for the wrong reasons.

 

You're wrong about it not producing more power on a stock vehicle. It absolutely will produce more on basically any properly tuned setup. It can be a lot of work and expense though.

 

Well I can't stand the foreign oil dependency and want to cut myself off completely. I am having a hrs time believing most of what you said though, and kn a site note, you didn't really help me with info I was looking for, you basically broke down my intention like I didn't want.

Also, you said I would have to replace my lines. No wouldn't, the fuel lines can handle it, ethanol is less corrosive than pump gas. And with a small cam and some mild boltons, e85, and a tune, I believe that'd be good for about 100 whp, but that's my opinion. It's also A dramatically smaller carbon footprint as opposed to the miniscule difference like you think.

Just looking for an idea on pump size and I jector size with these mods in mind, thanks.

 

E85, race gas, or meth injection will NOT produce any more power. Go put your car on a dyno on premium, then run it on race gas. You will see no power gain. The fuel you run does not give you any power. It allows you to run more timing and boost safely without hitting detonation which gives you more power. But it is not the fuel itself that gives you power.

If you are looking for info, then when it is presented you want to believe E85 is LESS corrosive than gasoline, you are going to have a hard time getting very far.

And no, I wasn't just BSing you on the E85

http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/...ison-test.html

 

I've read that study, and I completely agree with you when you say I'll burn more E85 than I would premium pump gas. However, you're incorrect on whether E85 is just as or more corrosive. It is significantly less corrosive and keeps the fuel system cleaner. Yes, E85 attracts water and should not sit over the winter for example but otherwise you're wrong. I forget where I saw this, but I saw dyno figure that represented a before and after of premium gas and e85 and it was good for 15whp alone for fuel The fuel conversion. As stated, I'm not just doing the fuel conversion, I'm complimenting E85 with a small cam and supporting valve train mods, and other mild bolt ons with a supporting tune.

AGAIN, I'm set on doing this. I believe it's incredibly beneficial for my cars power and for less of a carbon footprint. I just want an idea of injector size and fuel pump. Thanks.

 

So, you've heard of it but have no reference. It's not the fuel that makes the power. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. It's the benefits from the fuel that allow you to run more timing and make physical changes to your car that make the power. Look for an example of where someone just put E85 in a car previously running gas on the dyno and having it make more power without changing the tune or car. You won't find one, because it does not exist.

 

Sticky from this site man:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/fueling-injection/602091-how-run-your-ls1-e85.html

105 octane, not corrosive.

 

I can't imagine that you're going to try to feed me some bullshit about how 105 octance fuel won't give you more power.

Not to mention, I never said anyone didn't also add a supporting tune, don't know wherebyoure getting that.

 

If you read the article, you will notice there is zero references to any of the users info, so basically you are putting full trust in what he says (hence why I posted my link to an actual referenced factual page). It's not that I don't agree with some of what he is saying, but if you read it you would have also read where it specifically states "OBDII cars are made to handle 10% ethanol safely", he goes on to say "probably much more", but the manufacturer didn't state this.

Lol, man you can call it BS, but C16, E85, meth injection are all doing the same thing. They don't magically give your car power. They allow your car to adjust the timing and add boost and run at different levels that otherwise would cause detonation. If you are stating that they don't without a tune, then we are saying the same thing, but the fuel itself no matter what it is will not directly give you more power on its own. Don't believe me? I'm sure you don't cause I've basically been repeating the same thing you don't agree with. Prove me wrong. Find me the dyno that shows a car running on pump gas that had a change in power by ONLY changing fuel. You are not going to find one to support what you believe.

 

This is pointless. I never said that anything would be done without a tune, and I'm starting to feel convinced by lack of optimism towards this information I've provided that you just work for the oil companies.

 

Lol, if you only knew...

Sounds like we are on the same page, at least as far as the fuel in itself not making extra power but the benefits it gives giving the ability to change things that actually does.

 

I'm going to chime in and say my thoughts on E85. First off octane rating has nothing to do with power or performance, it simply changes its burn rate and increases the pressure required to knock. If you have a car designed for 87 and you run 91 you are not gaining anything at all except maybe some better detergent additives such as shell V-power or chevron with Techron. With that being said its possible to have your car tuned for 91 vs 87 if it was designed for 87 but the performance margin will be very small as all you can adjust is the spark timing a tad. Higher octane rating will allow you to run higher compression which is where 105 octane E-85 will come in advantage as where speedjunkee notes is why FI engines will use it along with race gas, but you can also take mill your heads to make use of E-85 as well. From what I have learned is that E-85 has less energy gallon for gallon than regular gas but you can overcome that by running higher compression or FI and pumping in more gas.

If you want to run E-85 that's fine and it can be fun but I'd recommend adding milled heads to your list and maybe some higher flow heads as your going to be pushing more through them.

 

I run e-85 on the track on my 600+ SBF. Runs much better on e85 than it ever did on Sunoco 110. Makes more power, too.

Generally speaking, wou will make a little more power with E85 on a hot day. Simnply getting a colder/denser air:fuel charge will make more power. Not a lot, but some. On a cold day, the engine will most likely run about the same. But it takes longer to get it going on a cold day.

In the summer, I run it on the street, too. Makes good power, smells good, and the engine runs nice and cool in traffic. The E-85 is hard to find, though. I was in Moab a couple of years ago. Man, it was hot! While stuck in construction traffic, the cars in our group were worried about overheating. But I didn't have any trouble.

As you already know, you'll need a proper tune. A common misconception is that you can and should run more timing, because of the higher octane. But I run less timing for more power; alcohol burns a little slower. You can figure that out on the dyno.

You'll need to burn about 20-25% more fuel. You need to make sure your pump can supply the volume. The stock nylon lines will be fine. If you're going to significantly increase the power levels, you'll probably want to run 2 lines to handle the volume; along with aftermarket rails.

The LS1 I'm building now will also run on e85, with no provisions for gasoline. It will be almost strictly a track car. I used some bigger injectors just to make things a little easier for future upgrades. Not sure if I really need them. But it seemed like a good idea at the time.

My SBF is primarily a street car, with a moderate amount of road racing - about 6-7 week ends per year. To make it easy to switch back and forth between fuels, I'm using a Megasquirt controller for fuel and spark. It holds two tunes, and I switch back and forth with a switch on the dash. For a street car, the ability to switch back and forth is really nice.

 

0.1% is more power. That's from the difference in chemical energy at stoichiometric ratio. I never said it would be measurable on a dyno. If you run the numbers it bears out. I just like the physics.

The charge cooling ability is what translates to the gains the FI guys see just from the fuel switch.

 

I am an FI guy. You don't gain power from a cooler IAT. You just stay further away from detonation. It's keeping away from that detonation and being able to run more timing and boost safely that gives you power. The boost and timing are what nets the power difference, NOT the cooler IAT had by E85, meth, intercooling or race gas.

 

Boost will certainly add more power

Race fuel wll not add power, or add any cooling to the charge temp.

Anything that cools the intake charge insid the combustion chamber will add power. Cool air:fuel is denser. More air, and more fuel = more power. power is directly dependent on how much fuel and oxygen you can pack into the combustion chamber and light on fire. That's why forced induction and big displacement works so well.

Adding more timing advance does not add more power. The appropriate timing advance adds more power. Sounds like the same thing, but isn't really. Differant fuels and engines require differant advance settings to achieve the goal.

The goal is to have the flame front reach it's maximum expansion at exactly the right time - just at or a little past TDC. If a fuel burns slowly (like Sunoco 110), then you add more timing to start the flame front sooner. If a fuel burns quicker (like ethenol), you take away some timing advance. Too much timing will have the maximum expansion before TDC, and that's a bad thing.

As you said, more octane keeps you further away from detonation at high cylinder pressures. You would think that with 110 octane, you can run a lot of cylinder pressure and be safe. Unfortunatly, e-85 is often mixed with the worst and cheapest gasoling available - the dregs from the bottom of the tank. That can sometimes cause detonation underneath the first ring land. Looks like a scene from "Alien".

E-85 can be some good stuff. Don't knock it until you try it.

 

Essentially we are speaking the same lingo. Yes, you can't always add more to to get more power. There becomes a point the ideal amount is reached and more will not net more power. What I am saying is before that point many times IATs are too high and a lessened timing advance is required to keep things safe. The E85 (or meth, or race gas) allows at that point to safely add the ideal amount for the desired level that otherwise would be un-attainable without it safely.

I don't know if I agree more power is had purely by adding the E85 alone. Yes it's lower IATs, and thus cooler intake charge temps. I have yet to ever been shown this difference on a dyno where actual numeric HP was shown as a gain over pump gas with nothing changed on the tune.

 

And you never will. There's no way to run the two fuels on the same tune. It's impossible.

What you can see is the same engine tuned for the two different fuels. Depending on conditions, you can see a power increase. Definitely on a hot day, maybe on a cold day. How much of a difference depends on the engine.

 

Seems debatable at best to me, but I can see what you are thinking.