Blk_Ws6

iTrader: (4)

This was a very exciting thread to read , But I do agree with Lemon gears can be made up for but lost of mpg won't, I would boost the tranny up (shift kit ,line pressure)for the lack of acceleration ,Underdrive pully also help with the quick revs , an a aluminum drive shaft (If you don't already have on) an then a stall .

s346k

iTrader: (4)

i did gears first (factory 273 car), then a 4k stall. i've ridden in 273 cars with big stalls. they sound like powerglides and feel like kenworths unless you're @ 100% tps.

i gained .25 and 2.5 mph on the nose from adding gears to a car that had nothing other than a lid. the 373/4k stall combo is tough to beat.

however, hindsight is 20/20. if i did it over i'd go with a 342 gearset (just for the money aspect) and 4500 stall. but whatever. i didn't break my 373s and still got 24mpg mixed in a car that went 12.0s pulling 3650+lbs down the track. the car had 3" true duals with magnaflow 4x9s dumped under the car, it could've had a stock stall and 273s back in it and would've still been stupid loud.

Blk_Ws6

iTrader: (4)

^^ Man no you gonna make me change my mind

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Old thread, but the topic often comes up.

Lemons has it exactly right throughout the entire thread. People should pay close attention to what he wrote.

It's actually shocking how a gear swap from 2.73 to 3.73 will do little for performance once you have a 3500+ stall. You'd be lucky to drop a tenth at that point.

Perception is also a funny thing. I see people talking about how "horribile" 2.73s feel compared to the 3.23s. Thing is, I've owned two of each in A4 LS1 cars, also with a couple different stall speeds. The difference in stock road feel (and actual performance) is quite small between 3.23 and 2.73, though things will feel a bit looser with a stalled 2.73 vs the same stall and a 3.23 or shorter (some people are bothered by this, some are not). People talk about the 2.73s like they put an LS1 in the high 14 second range, but that's simply not true at all (I think the best stock 60-foots for A4 LS1s have been in the 1.9 range for BOTH the 3.23 and 2.73 cars). All these people talking about how 2.73s suck so badly would be shocked to find that with a 3500+ stall, the performance advantage of a shorter gear set will usually be less than that of an air lid. A stall gives you all the WOT performance of gears (plus much more), and allows you to retain stock MPG after lock-up. Stock gears plus a 3500+ stall is an excellent street combo, and would always be my preference over a stock stall and say 3.73 or 4.10.

I would agree that 3.23 would be more optimal for overall road feel than the 2.73s, but if I was going to spend the money to change something relating to the drivetrain for increased performance, it would be the stall LONG before I would even think of touching the gears, even if they were 2.73s (which really aren't that bad for a 4L60E IMO).

Also, keep in mind that we are talking about automatics with a 3.06:1 first gear ratio, this is not the old days of 2.52/2.48 1st gears in the TH350/400. That being said, a 2.73 gear behind a 4L60E will launch like a 3.42 gear behind a TH400. And a 3.23 behind a 4L60E will launch like a 3.90 behind a TH350.

And lastly, there is no "4:10" or "3:73" gear set. They are 4.10, 3.73, etc.

RamAirRocket

iTrader: (1)

My LT1 Fleetwood has stock 3.42's but the super tight 1600 rpm stock stall and honestly, as much as I love the gear, that stall drives me nuts. It is TOO TIGHT for 3.42's and a 4650 lb car. Almost acted like a stick in some ways thru the short 1st of the 4L60E. Just annoying.

I am selling the car now anyway to my son so not my problem anymore, but the converter stall was most annoying even in a heavy car.

I drove a Northstar with 3.71's and a 3000 rpm stall, it drove great, smooth, loose enough to make the 300 hp really drive great. You won't regret the stall. With 2.73's I wouldn't go nuts on a high rpm stall without lockup, else it will be stalling all the time at cruise. Be cautious there.

shepss217

iTrader: (5)

I dont think theres too much difference between 3.42 and 3.73, a stall would help you gain another 1/2 second or so also and dramatically reduce your 60' times

lemons12

iTrader: (71)

Just wanted to make sure I made a point to respond to this.

It is nice to see someone appreciate someones input/responses to topics.

Posting in 5+ threads on a daily basis trying to help people without any kind of recognition gets old. My visits in the past 2 months have been scarce and this is one reason for it, especially in the "I need help/have a question" threads. It is especially frustrating when you type out a 3+ paragraph response giving in depth detail as to why I'm suggesting whatever it is and "johns" response is, "No man, you are wrong.. My "XXXX mod" felt like it added more than that plus I saw a buddy run in 25833+ DA and then did a gear swapped and picked up .4 when you ran in -2849 DA.". Then all of a sudden you have every 2010+ join date member listening to "john" thinking "XXXX mod" will drop you .4..... I could go on... /endrant

Thanks RPM, that meant something.
Nice 10 year by the way.

Blk_Ws6

iTrader: (4)

Lemon12 they say what they will , But you know your ****

ISMELLRICE

iTrader: (22)

hey why not just get both lol...i got gears first also but the stall compliments it nicely

lemons12

iTrader: (71)

Appreciate the words my man.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I know exactly what you mean. A lot of people seem to like answers that are quick and give incomplete or questionable background, or no explaination. Some also like to look for the answer that tells them what they want to hear, even if it's misleading or flat out wrong. There are a lot of rumors and bad/exaggerated info floating around because of this.

Anyway, glad I was able to brighten your day. There are some people on this site that give great info and yet often get ignored, overlooked or under appreciated. It's too bad things sometimes happen that way. But for what it's worth, as another experienced long-time LS1 owner, I respect your opinion and contributions.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

If that's in your budget, and you want to squeeze out every last possibile tenth of ET, and you're not overly concerned with highway rpms/mpg, then this would be fine.

But for the people that are budget limited, doing just one mod at a time, a stall is a far better place to put your money than a gear swap for this application. And if you use the car in such a way that highway mpg matters to you, then the gear swap will have down sides that the stall will not.

nickp

iTrader: (2)

Lemons...u would make a good lawyer.

lemons12

iTrader: (71)

I have heard this so many times in my life it is funny. When I was younger my mother actually tried to get me to take that route. I'm not really sure why I didn't to tell you the truth.

Funny story... Listening to two guys watch a football game the other night at the bar. One says about a play that was questioned, "Yea, that ball was on the ground.. It was a TD". The other says, "No, he caught the ball... It was a TD.".
The first guy replies, "Yea, thats what I said... He caught it, it was a TD". The second guy drops his head low while shaking it and puts his hands up to try to explain, "No, you actually said that the ball was on the grou..........", he gets interupted by the first guy, "GDamn it you can tell I'm having a beer with a lawyer.".

I hope you guys at least chuckled at it.. I got a good laugh listening to the entire thing play out.

dannyz

Hey Lemons.
A lot of people may not respond to your input, but I think most of us do listen.
I, myself, have read most posts you have have made, and more then one of the mods on my car is directly tied to your knowlage/experience.
Maybe I am late in saying this, but thankyou.
And, keep it up.

Blk_Ws6

iTrader: (4)

lemons12

iTrader: (71)

Glad I could help out man. I get so much from the forum I could never equal it with what I put in, I try to do my part when I can though.

As I said before.. With as much time I invest in the boards a small amount of appreciation goes a long way.
Thanks buddy.

s346k

iTrader: (4)

just curious why you'd say this? a stall swap is easily 2-3x the cost of a gear swap. for the "budget" minded, this is not a good investment haha. also, regarding mileage: the stalled car will not see better mpg than a gear car unless it's strictly on the highway, locked up. a stall will decimate your mileage under 50 mph. not to mention, we're speaking maybe 2-3 mpg at most. i lost exactly 2 mpg going from 273s to 373s in an otherwise stock vehicle.

i am not trying to advocate gears over a converter, but yall are making the gear swap out to be useless and a waste of money in all aspects. i had an a4 car and went through this, i am not hypothesizing or creating these statements. at least face the facts, as both have their advantages and disadvantages.

arock24

iTrader: (4)

With gears, you're constantly revving higher rpms (constantly hurting your mpg), whereas a stall will only rev at higher rpms any where from 35-45mph, after that, it's just like it's stock. How can gears be better for your gas mileage? My last 02 a4 gas mileage dropped closer to 3-5mpg after installing 3.73's (from 3.23's). I learned from my mistake, and will now be going the stalled route with my current ride.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

All the reasons were already explained in my previous posts.

Where can you buy quality gears and pay for a quality install for as little as $300? Because that's how cheap it would have to be if it's 3 times less than a stall swap. Of course, if you can do the install yourself, that's a different matter, but most people don't/can't. Actually, there are probably more people that would install a converter themselves, since it's far less sensitive work and doesn't require such specific tools.

Also, don't forget that the gains of a 3500+ stall will be considerably more than that of a common street ratio gear swap. This has all been covered throughout the thread, so there is really no reason to restate it any further. Many of us have shaved as much as 7 tenths to 1 full second (and some have even dropped OVER 1 second) off of our stock ETs with 3500+ stalls. Even a 2.73 to 4.10 gear swap can't hope to beat that, or even match it.

Yep, that's exactly what I already stated here:

They are both harmful to mileage when not at lockup speeds. The difference is, the stall will only reduce mileage in the city, but the gears will reduce it in the city and on the highway. If you take long trips with the car, or do a lot of highway commuting, this is something to consider.

I think a gear swap, for an A4 LS1 car, IS a useless waste of money IF it's done prior to a stall upgrade, because that money would be better spent towards a stall first. If you're building a max effort race car, then by all means do them together and squeeze out every last tenth possible. Or if you do the stall and find that it feels too loose for your tastes, then a gear swap would be worth while and help with that. But the fact remains that once you have a 3500+ stall, even going from 2.73 to 3.73 won't be worth more than about a tenth or two, if you can get proper traction. The gains are very slim at that point, and it's hard to justify unless you race so often that every tenth matters, or unless you just can't tolerate the looseness of a big stall with stock gears.