2009 bmw m3 vs 2010 ss camaro?
04-30-2010, 03:34 AM
#61
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No contest, SS all the way. The V8 in the BMW has low torque compared to the LS3. Both cars weight about the same, and come equiped with nearly the same size wheel and tires package. The only difference is the BMW will have launch mode. I have always liked the sound of my inline 6 but the new V8 sounds awesome, it just lacks the torque, but it spins up nicely.
Torque numbers when thrown about without understanding them in the context of horspower and gearing is useless information. Anyone can go on websites and look up numbers. Most will not even begin to understand why
cars like m3, Mclaren etc have lower torque but higher horsepower.
Even in a drag race, (let's say a 6,000 rpm limit) you are below 3,000 rpm (intial launch) for a short period of time (probably 5% for example). The upper rpm horsepower is crucial here. You can have "gobs" of torque below 3,000 rpm...but if you have trouble breathing up top - no horsepower output...the car with less torque and more horsepower (equivalent vice versa situation) is going to take you. The 95% of the time, he is in his "sweet spot."
I like to say torque gets you moving, horsepower keeps you moving.
The fastest production cars, EVO's, McLaren F1's, all have more peak (higher revving) horsepower than torque. They post the quickest acceleration numbers to 60 and the fastest top speeds.
Diesel engines (production trucks) have lots of torque but lower powerbands and lots of weight.
If you go to the track and ask the successful drag racers how they're tuning their cars, you will find that they want their torque (powerband) optimized for the higher rpms and they want the powerband wide enough to cover their shift points. They launch pretty hot and flog 'em down the stretch and they want to continue to accelerate strongly in each gear, so the torque has to be available over a range of RPMs that exceeds the RPM drop caused by shifting to each higher gear. Peak horsepower is a "nice to know" number, but to continuously accelerate, you need to deliver that power effectively over a usable range of RPMs. That's the importance of the torque vs RPM curve on a dynamometer plot. If the absolute value of your car's torque is relatively high and the high portion of the curve is wide enough to cover your shift points (gearbox dependent), you will outperform a competitor with higher absolute torque values if his curve does not adequately span the RPM differential at his shift points. His acceleration will not be consistent because his torque curve is narrow and peaky and since acceleration adds cumulatively to velocity, your car, with a slightly lower but broader torque vs RPM curve will win out.
04-30-2010, 07:14 AM
#62
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It appears that there is a lack of knowledge of physics/engineering amongst the crowd here.
Torque numbers when thrown about without understanding them in the context of horspower and gearing is useless information. Anyone can go on websites and look up numbers. Most will not even begin to understand why
cars like m3, Mclaren etc have lower torque but higher horsepower.
Even in a drag race, (let's say a 6,000 rpm limit) you are below 3,000 rpm (intial launch) for a short period of time (probably 5% for example). The upper rpm horsepower is crucial here. You can have "gobs" of torque below 3,000 rpm...but if you have trouble breathing up top - no horsepower output...the car with less torque and more horsepower (equivalent vice versa situation) is going to take you. The 95% of the time, he is in his "sweet spot."
I like to say torque gets you moving, horsepower keeps you moving.
The fastest production cars, EVO's, McLaren F1's, all have more peak (higher revving) horsepower than torque. They post the quickest acceleration numbers to 60 and the fastest top speeds.
Diesel engines (production trucks) have lots of torque but lower powerbands and lots of weight.
If you go to the track and ask the successful drag racers how they're tuning their cars, you will find that they want their torque (powerband) optimized for the higher rpms and they want the powerband wide enough to cover their shift points. They launch pretty hot and flog 'em down the stretch and they want to continue to accelerate strongly in each gear, so the torque has to be available over a range of RPMs that exceeds the RPM drop caused by shifting to each higher gear. Peak horsepower is a "nice to know" number, but to continuously accelerate, you need to deliver that power effectively over a usable range of RPMs. That's the importance of the torque vs RPM curve on a dynamometer plot. If the absolute value of your car's torque is relatively high and the high portion of the curve is wide enough to cover your shift points (gearbox dependent), you will outperform a competitor with higher absolute torque values if his curve does not adequately span the RPM differential at his shift points. His acceleration will not be consistent because his torque curve is narrow and peaky and since acceleration adds cumulatively to velocity, your car, with a slightly lower but broader torque vs RPM curve will win out.
Torque numbers when thrown about without understanding them in the context of horspower and gearing is useless information. Anyone can go on websites and look up numbers. Most will not even begin to understand why
cars like m3, Mclaren etc have lower torque but higher horsepower.
Even in a drag race, (let's say a 6,000 rpm limit) you are below 3,000 rpm (intial launch) for a short period of time (probably 5% for example). The upper rpm horsepower is crucial here. You can have "gobs" of torque below 3,000 rpm...but if you have trouble breathing up top - no horsepower output...the car with less torque and more horsepower (equivalent vice versa situation) is going to take you. The 95% of the time, he is in his "sweet spot."
I like to say torque gets you moving, horsepower keeps you moving.
The fastest production cars, EVO's, McLaren F1's, all have more peak (higher revving) horsepower than torque. They post the quickest acceleration numbers to 60 and the fastest top speeds.
Diesel engines (production trucks) have lots of torque but lower powerbands and lots of weight.
If you go to the track and ask the successful drag racers how they're tuning their cars, you will find that they want their torque (powerband) optimized for the higher rpms and they want the powerband wide enough to cover their shift points. They launch pretty hot and flog 'em down the stretch and they want to continue to accelerate strongly in each gear, so the torque has to be available over a range of RPMs that exceeds the RPM drop caused by shifting to each higher gear. Peak horsepower is a "nice to know" number, but to continuously accelerate, you need to deliver that power effectively over a usable range of RPMs. That's the importance of the torque vs RPM curve on a dynamometer plot. If the absolute value of your car's torque is relatively high and the high portion of the curve is wide enough to cover your shift points (gearbox dependent), you will outperform a competitor with higher absolute torque values if his curve does not adequately span the RPM differential at his shift points. His acceleration will not be consistent because his torque curve is narrow and peaky and since acceleration adds cumulatively to velocity, your car, with a slightly lower but broader torque vs RPM curve will win out.
Oh, and as for the lack of engineering knowledge, you might want to check the BMW forums, I suspect there is a much higher percentage of people that don't have a clue there.
04-30-2010, 02:36 PM
#63
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Ok.
Let's do a poll and see how many immature and non engineering comments are on these forums.
From what I have read on this posts- none show any idea about the engineering behind these cars.
Anyhow, enjoy and drive safe !
Let's do a poll and see how many immature and non engineering comments are on these forums.
From what I have read on this posts- none show any idea about the engineering behind these cars.
Anyhow, enjoy and drive safe !
04-30-2010, 07:37 PM
#64
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Look around this site particularly, the amount of knowledge here is impressive. Lots of custom builds, good technical information. Like it or not, a lot more true gearheads are here than you find on a BMW forum. Sure there are immature people here but that is on any forum. I would say the average BMW driver obtains 90% of their "engineering knowledge" from car and driver and never lays a wrench on their own car.
05-01-2010, 01:45 PM
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Look around this site particularly, the amount of knowledge here is impressive. Lots of custom builds, good technical information. Like it or not, a lot more true gearheads are here than you find on a BMW forum. Sure there are immature people here but that is on any forum. I would say the average BMW driver obtains 90% of their "engineering knowledge" from car and driver and never lays a wrench on their own car.
's etc.
Not all of us are spoiled rich kids that get their parents to buy cars.
I've done a full exhaust/aerodynamics/performance steering wheel and a lot of other mods which I've learnt from a lot of forum members. Plus the BMW CCA holds DIY workshops at various garages around the country where we get to work on our cars with a mechanic helping out with pointers.
Anyhow, we are all gearheads and enjoy what we do.
We can all agree it is fun to have a car which you can mod. It's particularly pleasing to see how the car changes with each modification.
One thing I really enjoy about my car is the adjustable suspension- I have available 4 suspension settingst that adjust the dampers- so when I have the kid
or wife in the car- I have to use comfort and it rides like a dream. But when I am by myself- I go full sport which makes the ride stiffen up for the track.
There are a multitude of settings which allow for you to adjust how you want the car to handle.
It's truly amazing how advanced these performance cars are nowadays (including GTR's/GT3's etc)
Enjoy and drive safe !
Last edited by RavS; 05-01-2010 at 01:51 PM.
05-01-2010, 06:05 PM
#68
It appears that there is a lack of knowledge of physics/engineering amongst the crowd here.
Torque numbers when thrown about without understanding them in the context of horspower and gearing is useless information. Anyone can go on websites and look up numbers. Most will not even begin to understand why
cars like m3, Mclaren etc have lower torque but higher horsepower.
Even in a drag race, (let's say a 6,000 rpm limit) you are below 3,000 rpm (intial launch) for a short period of time (probably 5% for example). The upper rpm horsepower is crucial here. You can have "gobs" of torque below 3,000 rpm...but if you have trouble breathing up top - no horsepower output...the car with less torque and more horsepower (equivalent vice versa situation) is going to take you. The 95% of the time, he is in his "sweet spot."
I like to say torque gets you moving, horsepower keeps you moving.
The fastest production cars, EVO's, McLaren F1's, all have more peak (higher revving) horsepower than torque. They post the quickest acceleration numbers to 60 and the fastest top speeds.
Diesel engines (production trucks) have lots of torque but lower powerbands and lots of weight.
If you go to the track and ask the successful drag racers how they're tuning their cars, you will find that they want their torque (powerband) optimized for the higher rpms and they want the powerband wide enough to cover their shift points. They launch pretty hot and flog 'em down the stretch and they want to continue to accelerate strongly in each gear, so the torque has to be available over a range of RPMs that exceeds the RPM drop caused by shifting to each higher gear. Peak horsepower is a "nice to know" number, but to continuously accelerate, you need to deliver that power effectively over a usable range of RPMs. That's the importance of the torque vs RPM curve on a dynamometer plot. If the absolute value of your car's torque is relatively high and the high portion of the curve is wide enough to cover your shift points (gearbox dependent), you will outperform a competitor with higher absolute torque values if his curve does not adequately span the RPM differential at his shift points. His acceleration will not be consistent because his torque curve is narrow and peaky and since acceleration adds cumulatively to velocity, your car, with a slightly lower but broader torque vs RPM curve will win out.
Torque numbers when thrown about without understanding them in the context of horspower and gearing is useless information. Anyone can go on websites and look up numbers. Most will not even begin to understand why
cars like m3, Mclaren etc have lower torque but higher horsepower.
Even in a drag race, (let's say a 6,000 rpm limit) you are below 3,000 rpm (intial launch) for a short period of time (probably 5% for example). The upper rpm horsepower is crucial here. You can have "gobs" of torque below 3,000 rpm...but if you have trouble breathing up top - no horsepower output...the car with less torque and more horsepower (equivalent vice versa situation) is going to take you. The 95% of the time, he is in his "sweet spot."
I like to say torque gets you moving, horsepower keeps you moving.
The fastest production cars, EVO's, McLaren F1's, all have more peak (higher revving) horsepower than torque. They post the quickest acceleration numbers to 60 and the fastest top speeds.
Diesel engines (production trucks) have lots of torque but lower powerbands and lots of weight.
If you go to the track and ask the successful drag racers how they're tuning their cars, you will find that they want their torque (powerband) optimized for the higher rpms and they want the powerband wide enough to cover their shift points. They launch pretty hot and flog 'em down the stretch and they want to continue to accelerate strongly in each gear, so the torque has to be available over a range of RPMs that exceeds the RPM drop caused by shifting to each higher gear. Peak horsepower is a "nice to know" number, but to continuously accelerate, you need to deliver that power effectively over a usable range of RPMs. That's the importance of the torque vs RPM curve on a dynamometer plot. If the absolute value of your car's torque is relatively high and the high portion of the curve is wide enough to cover your shift points (gearbox dependent), you will outperform a competitor with higher absolute torque values if his curve does not adequately span the RPM differential at his shift points. His acceleration will not be consistent because his torque curve is narrow and peaky and since acceleration adds cumulatively to velocity, your car, with a slightly lower but broader torque vs RPM curve will win out.
05-01-2010, 11:27 PM
#69
There are a lot of us that do heavily mod our M3's/GT3
's etc.
Not all of us are spoiled rich kids that get their parents to buy cars.
I've done a full exhaust/aerodynamics/performance steering wheel and a lot of other mods which I've learnt from a lot of forum members. Plus the BMW CCA holds DIY workshops at various garages around the country where we get to work on our cars with a mechanic helping out with pointers.
Anyhow, we are all gearheads and enjoy what we do.
We can all agree it is fun to have a car which you can mod. It's particularly pleasing to see how the car changes with each modification.
One thing I really enjoy about my car is the adjustable suspension- I have available 4 suspension settingst that adjust the dampers- so when I have the kid
or wife in the car- I have to use comfort and it rides like a dream. But when I am by myself- I go full sport which makes the ride stiffen up for the track.
There are a multitude of settings which allow for you to adjust how you want the car to handle.
It's truly amazing how advanced these performance cars are nowadays (including GTR's/GT3's etc)
Enjoy and drive safe !
's etc.
Not all of us are spoiled rich kids that get their parents to buy cars.
I've done a full exhaust/aerodynamics/performance steering wheel and a lot of other mods which I've learnt from a lot of forum members. Plus the BMW CCA holds DIY workshops at various garages around the country where we get to work on our cars with a mechanic helping out with pointers.
Anyhow, we are all gearheads and enjoy what we do.
We can all agree it is fun to have a car which you can mod. It's particularly pleasing to see how the car changes with each modification.
One thing I really enjoy about my car is the adjustable suspension- I have available 4 suspension settingst that adjust the dampers- so when I have the kid
or wife in the car- I have to use comfort and it rides like a dream. But when I am by myself- I go full sport which makes the ride stiffen up for the track.
There are a multitude of settings which allow for you to adjust how you want the car to handle.
It's truly amazing how advanced these performance cars are nowadays (including GTR's/GT3's etc)
Enjoy and drive safe !
A PERFORMANCE STEERING WHEEL! Holy ****! You must drive the fastest car in the world!
05-03-2010, 06:48 PM
#70
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Maybe not fastest- but a lot of fun
This steering wheel has a lot of electronics built into it- Oil temp, water temp, shift lights, lap timer, and records lateral and vertical G' all show up on the steering wheel.
It took several hours for the install since it involved a lot of wiring and connections into the ECU.
05-03-2010, 06:58 PM
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Look around this site particularly, the amount of knowledge here is impressive. Lots of custom builds, good technical information. Like it or not, a lot more true gearheads are here than you find on a BMW forum. Sure there are immature people here but that is on any forum. I would say the average BMW driver obtains 90% of their "engineering knowledge" from car and driver and never lays a wrench on their own car.
06-04-2010, 09:12 PM
#72
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What an amusing thread. Where's the popcorn. So are you all speechless now? I guess you all woke up from your wet dream? Or are you still thinking of a comeback?
Ravs -- where'd you get that steering wheel. Sounds like fun.
Ravs -- where'd you get that steering wheel. Sounds like fun.
Last edited by PitBull; 06-04-2010 at 09:21 PM.
02-10-2011, 11:24 AM
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Sorry to dig up an old post, and yes, this is my first post, but I didn't see anyone make the comparison about GM's new chassis (Zeta?) used in the Camaro and the G8; it's basically a knock off of BMW's suspension. I came across this thread because I had googled m3 and SS suspension because I was looking for pictures to show a friend that the Camaro is just knock off BMW, but instead of being made completly from aluminum GM uses stamped steel. It makes the car cheaper to produce, but handling suffers.
I have a unique point of view, as I was a diehard chevy guy and hated "foreign" cars (which the camaro & G8 are btw), that is until I got a job as a journeyman tech working on european cars. One day back on 2001 I was test driving a car that was a used trade in, which happened to be a 97 BMW 528i, and as I was driving it down a twisty road I couldn't believe how well it handled, and how solid the car felt, not to mention it didn't have a single rattle. Then I looked at the odometer and saw it had over 150k! I was sold from then on.
The guy who posted that they are worth every penny was right on, and I they are by far the best value of any car. As for the guy ripping on the BMW running 13.4 and breaking a half shaft, my only question is this; have you ever owned a 10 bolt? I gernaded my stock rear when my iroc still had the 305, and I use the sheared pinion from my 4th gen as a paperweight! I wouldn't start poking at the bmw driveline components, especially since BMW's aren't designed for hole shots anyways (they don't even put an LSD in any car that isn't an M). They are built for twisties and for going 150mph safely on the autobahn. I'm not going to get in to whether the SS is faster than the M3, which responds best to mods, ect. If comparing stock to stock the BMW is a far superior car with better components, but the trade-off is a higher cost. Don't get me wrong, the Camaro has come a long way and I have seriously looked at buying one and I also test drove the first G8 in St. Louis (watched them pull it off the truck) but was disappointed at how squishy and sloppy it felt. My BMW 5 series with 200k felt newer.
In my eyes, the ultimate car is to buy an older BMW, drop in an ls2 or ls3 with a 6 speed, and hold on for dear life! I actually plan on doing that after I finish my turbo lq4 c10. BMW builds an awesome car, but the General builds an awesome motor. For full disclosure, I am 28, have owned Camaros from the time I was 16 until a few weeks ago when I sold my 4th gen (that’s why I joined ls1tech, the F-body forums aren’t the place for LS swap cars), bought my first BMW (528i) 6 years ago and now have 220k on the clock and has been the most reliable car I have ever owned, an 06 BMW 325i sport for my wife to drive which is a blast to drive, and my 67 LS powered c10.
Now, if you really want a good pissing match with a new Camaro, let's talk about the BMW 335i... Basically the same cost, better fuel economy, runs a 13.5@104, and will eat a Camaro on the road coarse. If you've got 40k to drop on a car, that's the buy, plus it will hold it's value!
I have a unique point of view, as I was a diehard chevy guy and hated "foreign" cars (which the camaro & G8 are btw), that is until I got a job as a journeyman tech working on european cars. One day back on 2001 I was test driving a car that was a used trade in, which happened to be a 97 BMW 528i, and as I was driving it down a twisty road I couldn't believe how well it handled, and how solid the car felt, not to mention it didn't have a single rattle. Then I looked at the odometer and saw it had over 150k! I was sold from then on.
The guy who posted that they are worth every penny was right on, and I they are by far the best value of any car. As for the guy ripping on the BMW running 13.4 and breaking a half shaft, my only question is this; have you ever owned a 10 bolt? I gernaded my stock rear when my iroc still had the 305, and I use the sheared pinion from my 4th gen as a paperweight! I wouldn't start poking at the bmw driveline components, especially since BMW's aren't designed for hole shots anyways (they don't even put an LSD in any car that isn't an M). They are built for twisties and for going 150mph safely on the autobahn. I'm not going to get in to whether the SS is faster than the M3, which responds best to mods, ect. If comparing stock to stock the BMW is a far superior car with better components, but the trade-off is a higher cost. Don't get me wrong, the Camaro has come a long way and I have seriously looked at buying one and I also test drove the first G8 in St. Louis (watched them pull it off the truck) but was disappointed at how squishy and sloppy it felt. My BMW 5 series with 200k felt newer.
In my eyes, the ultimate car is to buy an older BMW, drop in an ls2 or ls3 with a 6 speed, and hold on for dear life! I actually plan on doing that after I finish my turbo lq4 c10. BMW builds an awesome car, but the General builds an awesome motor. For full disclosure, I am 28, have owned Camaros from the time I was 16 until a few weeks ago when I sold my 4th gen (that’s why I joined ls1tech, the F-body forums aren’t the place for LS swap cars), bought my first BMW (528i) 6 years ago and now have 220k on the clock and has been the most reliable car I have ever owned, an 06 BMW 325i sport for my wife to drive which is a blast to drive, and my 67 LS powered c10.
Now, if you really want a good pissing match with a new Camaro, let's talk about the BMW 335i... Basically the same cost, better fuel economy, runs a 13.5@104, and will eat a Camaro on the road coarse. If you've got 40k to drop on a car, that's the buy, plus it will hold it's value!
