Dark SS

iTrader: (6)

Huh???

Original meaning? You mean a working man's Corvette. A modestly priced sports car that everyone can afford. Seems to be well within the realm. I'm sure GM will disagree with your statement on sales, they are in the business to make money. Seeing as how much stake GM put in the hands of the consumer with the 5th gen in a focus group and Q and A sessions I would have to believe you guys are in the minority here. The 5th gen retains the "beast" aspect (and builds upon it) while becoming more refined and mainstream to ensure it's survival in the market.

fucter

iTrader: (5)

I wanted the 5th gens to be awesome. I thought they looked pretty cool at first too. Artistically they encompass styling from all previous four generations of camaros, with the 1st being the main styling cue.
With that said, they are too big. they should have used a similar length/width to the 1st generation.
the weight is understandable, and just something that is always going to grow as Detroit adds more cupholders etc...
Looking as they do, the more I look at them, the more I feel that they just arent close enough for to the first gen for me to care. I actually like 2nd gen camaros and 3rd gen is starting to amuse me (because mostly, the only time I see a 3rd gen is at car shows, so they're always clean and fast)


but yeah, the 4gen looks more current than the 5th gen imo.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

I have no real problem with the "5th gen" on it's own. It's just not a camaro.

That's the gist of the "4th gen holdouts". Great car, not a camaro.

cemlsx

I guess we dont want comfortable cars , personally i refuse to be a part of this technology and own the same car as anyone else who thinks its pretty , I want a car which only a group of people choose to drive , because they are uncomfortable , RAW , POWERFUL and affordable lol
I guess what I mean is its almost become JUST a popular car , like a biemer or something , people with no ideas on what a camaro is , wants to buy it , just because its popular .. Its not the "Camaro , the muscle car" anymore , Its different I guess , I just cant compare the old camaro's to the new ones , the word has lost its meaning with the 5th gen.. but I wont argue with you whether its a good car or not , TO ME , i prefer the 4th gen . to each his own .. I guess seeing other ppl think the same way as me got me carried away.. Its good to see camaro's live on ,but I'll always prefer 4th gens ..

fly pantera

iTrader: (9)

well since everybody else is weighing in i will also.
1st off i have a decent looking black fbody and too be honest i really dont get compliments that often but in my cobra i always get compliments.
i like the looks of the 5th gen better than the 4th gen camaro,but will i ever buy one.....hell no there way to fat,i would much rather drive a 2011 5.0.
i all care about is speed,i could care less if my cars quite inside,i could care less if i have leather seats and all that other bs cars come with now.............god i love my 1sc camaro.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I understand and agree, except that I'm not one to "bash" the 5th gen, I've just pointed out why I don't think it's a *better* car for me and others like me. Of couse, for you more mainstream types, your tastes/likes/wants are different; you are in fact the majority. I see the market for a car like this, and one day I very well may own one for a daily driver, but only because I can't buy any new 4th gens.

Not at all. They were better sellers than Corvette, for whatever that's worth.

And that is exactly what I meant when I said they are as modern as you can get (powertrain) while still feeling old (rest of the car); which is something that a few of us can really appreciate. There is no way that I can make anyone understand this; either you do or you don't. And that's not meant to bash anyone or anyone's opinion, it's just a matter of personal preference. I try to keep technology to a minimum in all aspects of my life (I prefer simple, with cars and everything else).

It's not about refusal for me, I just won't ditch/bash/overlook my 4th gens simply because the 5th gen is a more "refined" car. I still have a great deal of resepct for the 3rd gens, even though I haven't owned one for 12 years and I prefer the 4th gen. I just don't disrespect old things that I loved because a newer version is released, and those of you that do likely never really cared for the 4th gen in the first place.

Again, I have never disputed that. More people are like you than like me, I'm very sure of that. You were probably in the group of 4th gen owners that complained about several aspects of your 4th gen and wanted something newer/more refined even while the 4th gens were still the newest Camaro offering.

On the other hand, I liked the 4th gens for exactly what they were, and I was never one of the guys bitching about refinement/design/anything else when the 4th gens were new. I was happy with what GM gave me in the 4th gens, so many of the modernizations found in the 5th gen were unasked for, and thus in some aspects unwelcome by me. Again, I realize I'm only one man and represent the opinion of the few.

Interestingly, there are people who complained about the 4th gen not being right for them, and even though all of their concerns were addressed by the 5th gen, some of them now complain about that one too. Some people are never happy, but I don't fit in that group. I was very happy with the 4th gens, and I showed it by buying two of them brand new and owning four total. I'm confident that I'll always own at least one.

"Beast" is a matter of opinion I guess. Like I said above, even the 4th gens are hard to call a beast from my perspective.

EDIT:

I want to be clear on something.... I'm certainly not trying to preach overall 4th gen superiority (at least not objectively) or to bash the 5th gens (as I've stated repeatedly, I'll probably own a 5th gen at some point). I realize that for the mainstream majority, the 5th gen is a better choice for several reasons (not the least of which is the fact it's a new car with a warranty). I'm merely trying to explain why, to a few of us, 4th gens are at-least-as/more desireable than a 5th gen. That is all.

chaman

iTrader: (5)

Wrong. The 4th gen sales were not affected by the platform it was based at all. It has been the same layout since the beginning almost 30 years before the 4th gens. The platform proved to be solid and popular. GM KILLED the 4th gen by not been competitive in their prices (the 4th gen became unreachable for its real target audience) and because the early 90s saw the rise to fame of SUVs. Why Mustangs kept selling then? Those were even more "outdated" than our f-body cars. Get your facts right or please, inform yourself better.

Those out dated, out of styling line of cars made it possible for you having that pig of car you are proudly defending.

I would love to see how this new Camaro holds itself in the long run, say 10 years from now. My guess is it will do very poorly, more so than the 4th gens did.

AW794

iTrader: (7)

Im not a 5th gen fan, it weighs too much. IMO chrysler won that battle with the challenger as far as looks go. If i were to spend 38k on a newer car, id invest in a used c6z.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

comparing to mustang isn't very fair either. Ford uses the name mustang to refer to a car that has as much variety every year as if GM started naming the camaro, firebird and corvette all Corvette (back when all 3 were made each year). So of course Mustangs kept selling, there was a "mustang" for every type of consumer.

The camaro didn't die because it was a bad car. Pontiac didn't die because they made bad cars (maybe partly). They died because the people in charge are retards. Incompetent management decisions led to the carpocalypse (and to never really marketing the camaro and firebird to it's intended buyer).

Camaro and firebird have had a history of poor sales throughout the 3rd and 4th gen. It's not the car's fault. The people in charge just ignored imports competing for the same buyers and that turns out to be pretty stupid.

Dark SS

iTrader: (6)

You may need a little history lesson. When the 4th gen and SN95 mustang came around at about the same time GM and ford took 2 very different approaches. Both of these cars were supposed to be FWD/ V6's but that never happened so each company built off of the platforms they had. Ford decided to round out the mustang and make it more user friendly and didn't make performance as much of a priority. GM on the other hand decided to go all in with performance with user friendliness taking a back seat. They were hard to get in and out of and rode like a milk wagon. Not to mention the chassis would feel like it was coming apart over railroad tracks after a few months. That's why the F-body was always popular with enthusiasts but didn't sell well in the market. V6 base models are what make money and make it possible for the high performance models to exist. This is what GM learned and applied to the 5th gen. So please read up a little before you make such uneducated statements.

I agree that heritage plays a huge roll in cars like the Camaro, Vette and Mustang but that doesn't change the fact that your 1970's developed chassis is out of date in 2011. That's common sense.

I don't know what you mean by "how it holds itself in the long run". You mean like the countless squeaks and rattles it would get like all 4th gens have or how many window motors I'll have to replace? The resale on a 2 year old SS is still holding up quite well. I remember looking at 98-00 WS.6's back in 02-03 and they were almost half price of new.

chaman

iTrader: (5)

Wrong again.

You need to do a bit more of research. Let me help you a bit, look for a book titled "Pontiac Firebird: The Autobiography" author Marc Cranswick and kindly refer to the last chapter. It gives a detailed summary of what went wrong with the F-body and the reasons of why it was discontinued by GM. I think you are not only lost in the real history of these cars but also badly biased and opinionated about this subject, nice try though.

Next time you try an "informed" reply check your sources. You are just giving out a BIASED opinion and trying to pass it like a fact.

Are you seriously comparing the resale value of a two year old car vs a midnineties made car? I thought you could come up with a better argument than that.

Mine is a 1999 model with NO squeaks and rattles. You talk about that "beast" you have(at least in weight) like it has the quality of a handmade Rolls Royce and is quite pathetic. Ive seen quite a few examples and the amount of bad quality paintjobs and vast amounts of CHEAP plastic is still there, wait 10 years and be prepared to print this post of yours and eat it.

Camaro Junky

Well said. I am gonna check out that book, sounds like a good read.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I'm not exactly sure what he was getting at either, but I can tell you this: The 5th gen will be dismissed by the trendy-modern people when/if a 6th gen is released. Every arguement you make for current 5th gen superiority will be negated by a 6th gen (more refinement, better performance [presumably], newer technology, etc.). When a car is chasing after mainstream and/or trendy buyers, it's very nature is to not attract buyers who will be loyal to that specific car once something newer is released. This is why most older, mainstream cars have very little following or interest once they are no longer on the cutting edge of technology.

Non-mainstream cars (like Corvette, for example) usually have very loyal followings for each specific generation, since many of the people that buy these cars can appreciate them for more than just their temporary status as the latest offering, respective to their era. I'm not sure that the 5th gens will enjoy this level of loyalty from their owners, since many of you will probably drop them for a newer 6th gen if/when released and as soon as you can afford it.

The reasons why I like my 4th gens are reasons that won't go away or be negated by a newer car, no matter how many generations are released. The same cannot be said for many of the reasons why you prefer a 5th gen, which simply means that eventually you'll be making many of the same arguements for why the 6th gen is better (unless it becomes a FWD POS), should one be released. In other words, the 5th gen is great to you now, but how will you feel several years down the road?

100k miles on my '02 car. One power window motor went out @ 95k. Only one squeak/rattle, from the passenger side t-top in cold weather. If the car was a hardtop, it would be squeak free. Just my experience.

chaman

iTrader: (5)

I meant durability in the long run. This guy refers to his car like its of a much better quality to the 4th gen ones. Hey, its new, its supposed to feel better! But as to anyone that has seen one of these up-close, its the same cheap plastic, not to mention the poor paint job, for example look on the underside of these cars hoods.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, I have to agree with that as well.

As a person that bought 4th gens brand new (and still has one with low enongh miles to drive like new...thus giving me a recent comparasion), and a person that has also driven a new 5th gen, I have to say that I don't see where the 5th gen is so vastly superior in terms of initial quality, vs the 4th gens when brand new. Of course, long term quality/durability remains to be seen.

I think some people try to compare a worn out, 10+ year old 4th gen with 6-digit mileage to a brand new car and call it fair.

The Bronx Bull

I think there are two groups of "4th Gen Holdouts" that exist, and many of the 5th Gen guys feel insulted by one of the groups.

One group are current owners of 4th gens who bash the 5th gen repeatedly, primarily because they do not have the financial means to obtain one. I think there are many people on this site that are quick to bash anything that they don't own, and promote what they do own; that's a habit sometimes, when you've invested a lot of money in something. However, if someone were to say "I'll trade you my comparable 5th gen Camaro for your 4th gen" to this group of guys, they would take it in a heartbeat, and would subsequently jump on the 5th gen bandwagon.

The second group of guys, most notably like RPM WS6 and myself, admire the 5th gen for what it is, and respect the fact that GM is trying to make the Camaro appeal to the masses to promote financial gain for their company, but we feel as though our 4th gens are a better fit for our personality traits. We don't like owning things that are new and popular, and would rather be placed in a "niche" group that values unique ideas of the past, like the OHV V8's of a 4th gen, the rough and raw handling style, and the overall simplicity. If you were to offer your comparable 5th gen in trade for our clean 4th gens, we would say "No," instinctively. We (well, I at least!) still love the top dogs like the C6Z06 and ZR1 cars, even though they're new and modern, because they're not a dime a dozen, though.

That said, the 5th gen may appeal to guys like me after the "craze" is over; at the moment, however, I just don't consider the upgrade to one worthy of my investment, because it won't make me any happier than what I've currently got in the garage.

wicknewman

iTrader: (13)

I agree with this statement 100% and is the main reason I love the 4th gens so much.

I have been into cars and worked on them my entire adult life. One thing I have noticed is that it is a waste of time to "car talk" with most 5th gen guys. There is always opinions and bias when it comes to people coming together who like different types of cars. It is part of the fun to me....the rivalry that exists. I have had many mustang friends and we disagree on many points but neither is unaware of their own car's faults. I just have never seen a group of people that bash every other type of car (not just 4th gens) with such conviction as 5th gen owners. I like the 5th gen a lot but no car is perfect. Just don't try to tell 5th gen owners that.

Dark SS

iTrader: (6)

I completely agree with you and it's the 2nd group, like yourself, that I get along with and take what you say as constructive criticism. Obviously the 4th gen and 5th gen aren't for everyone. Hell there are people out there that are passionate about Toyota Camry's, that's why there are different cars made. There was also a time when 3rd gens were new technology and so on. The fact is when the 6th gen comes out I'm sure it will be a better, more advanced car. The 1st group, like some people in this thread, are pointless to try to talk to.

Dark SS

iTrader: (6)

I agree, there are a lot of 5th gen owners that run their mouths and can't run their cars. That's why a lot of people think the 5th gen is a 13 sec. car. I have stated that I liked my 4th gens but when fanboi's get involved I will argue with them for fun. IMO the biggest downfall of the 5th gen is most of the trendy owners. The 5th gen is far from perfect but I prefer it to any of my 4th gens. Now if I wanted mostly a track car I would start with a 4th gen but as a street and occasional strip car I love my 5th gen and have been pretty impressed by it with the mods I have done.

Dark SS

iTrader: (6)

I have read a few Camaro and F-body book and that's where I take my facts from. I'll have to check out your firebird book because I'm sure it has completely different facts.

No, read the whole post next time. I'm comparing a 2 years old car in 2011 and a 2 year old car in 2002. Seems like an apples to apples comparison.

Congratulations, you must have subframe connectors or a very low mile car. Either way I'm very happy for you and your awesome car. If you think a 4th gen chassis has as much rigidity as a 5th gen then you obviously have read nothing about the 5th gen and just open your mouth to hear yourself talk. It's fact that the 5th gen is a stiffer chassis and doesn't need subframe connectors like the 4th. I never said my car was a Rolls Royce, this car is still a Chevrolet that is priced in the mid 30K.