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Magnuson 2650 - Realistic Numbers?

Old 11-08-2018, 11:09 PM
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Default Magnuson 2650 - Realistic Numbers?

Anybody familiar with this ghost product? It’s advertised (apparently for quite a while) but not available for purchase. I considered waiting for it instead of buying a competitor’s product, because if it is what is claimed, there’s nothing like it on the market, but....do the numbers make sense to you guys?

Before I go into it, let me explain my situation, and hopefully that will explain some of what my concerns are. I’ve got a forged 409 LSX, Jake’s Performance Stage 5 4L80E trans, upgraded drive shaft, rear end, meth, and other goodies like exhaust, suspension, fuel pumps, injectors, pulleys, braces, ZL1 hood, etc. I have an Edelbrock e-force which is fine but really intended for less capable setups, which it was until I upgraded many things. I’m making around 650whp. I could double that with a better blower. It’s a street car only as tracks want this convertible to have a cage to run (and at least in MI, any coup at this power level as well. Not sure if same in TX at all tracks yet as I just moved). I won’t do that. It’s 5,000+lbs. It’s comfortable. I’m not looking to make a track car out of it. I do use all of it often and could use much more. Judge me if you will. I don’t even really street race (unless something happens to pull up). I’m just an addict who needs more and more and gets it, on the street. I try not to be an ******* about it.

So what do I want? Little maintenance and a long engine life so no turbos with dirt and heat. (I know they’re all the rage, and everybody thinks the ultimate is a twin turbo setup, and I’ll likely take some heat for poo pooing them, if anybody bothers to reply at all. To each, his own). A relatively normal looking street car, so no massive through the hood tower with a giant Whipple, blocking my vision. I really want to limit the belt issues. Already had several issues with that, so no cog. I’ve learned to go big from the start so I don’t want any chance that I’ll want to replace it later either because I got cheap and bought junk that breaks (more expensive in the long run) or because I didn’t satisfy myself and wanted more, so a more powerful unit than “probably” enough. Oh, and though the e-force is lower output, it is roots, so it has no delay or drag in the delivery, and that would be nice. I think I’d be happy with 1,000rwhp. That’s a tall list. I want what everybody wants - everything, with no issues. Good luck, right

So a Procharger is not perfect but the right model would cover several of the bases. Remember, I’d rather overkill than under do it. I don’t have to stress it to it’s max. Hell it would probably live longer with less issues if I did get more blower than I need and worked it at 3/4 capacity. So an F-1X would be nice....except my research revealed that they break entirely too much. The cure, the F-1X-12. It’s been much more dependable, oh and more powerful, oh and spins less to deliver more, so more efficient, which would also help on the slower delivery of power (as compared to a roots blower) as well as make it easier on the belt. There’s been bracket issues but apparently Steve Morris has brackets that resolve those issues. Done, right? Not quite.

Someone in the know (I don’t want to potentially endorse a product in his name)points out if I wait (who knows how long), there might be something even more made for my needs: A new Magnuson - the 2650. It’s a bolt on, over the engine, low profile roots blower (just like my eforce), but with real power. I wouldn’t have to modify the engine bay to fit it (like I would to fit the PC) I’d get that instant on power, and it’s billed to provide 1,000 - 1,500Whp. What?! Hell yes! So I do a little research on it.

I went to the Magnuson website and could not find a way to navigate to it. Being the new, bad ***, best blower they ever made, you’d figure it would be front and center, so that’s weird - hmm. I search engined it and found shortcuts to the Magnuson web site pages that talk about it. https://www.magnusonsuperchargers.co...-62-xxx-xx.htm it says:

”Unleash the true potential of your LT1/LT4 with the Magnuson TVS 2650™ Supercharger System! This is the largest Supercharger Magnuson has ever developed and it's expected to produce horsepower numbers for LT1/LT4's well over 1000 RWHP with boost levels over 20 psi. This is a full kit supercharger system designed to deliver maximum performance while retaining factory-like drivability and reliability. Inside of the supercharger manifold, our new charge air cooler is larger than the OE, keeping your Intake Air Temperatures well in check and providing consistent and repeatable performance. One of the most impressive aspects of this latest generation supercharger system is that it can outflow the competition, using less power and provides significantly cooler discharge temperatures. The price of this kit will be determined soon.”

So great. If it will take an LT1/LT4 to “well over 1K rwhp”, surely it could take my forged LSX there or beyond.

I’m new to the site and apparently making the post too long because it’s giving me a fight to write any more onto it so I’ll post this part and continue on a reply to myself.

Last edited by Vanishing Point; 11-09-2018 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:37 PM
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Here’s the photo they show on that page:
[img]blob:https://ls1tech.com/b52393e1-8a7c-4b...4-6d08d6d54efd
So it says “boost levels over 20lbs”. I’m curious, because that could mean 21 or 100. I dig further. I find this page:
https://www.musclecardefinition.com/...ith-1150-rwhp/

This page says:
”On top there is a Magnuson TVS 2650 Supercharger with twin 90mm throttle bodies that can produce 23psi. This Camaro also it is equipped with a 8-speed automatic transmission, skinnies at front and Mickey Thompson drag radial tires in the back. Whit this configuration, and running only at 14-15 psi and 955RWHP, this Camaro achieved a 1/4 mile time of 9.64 seconds @ 151.6 MPH.”

So 23lbs is stated as what “it can produce”. But is that only with those throttle bodies breaking through the hood? They didn’t show it with those on the Magnuson website previously mentioned above. Also, 955Rwhp with only 14-15lbs.? That’s eforce pressure. How is Magnuson 15lbs. of pressure so much different than Edelbrock’s 15lbs. of pressure?
Here’s the photo provided with this 23lbs. statement:

[img]blob:https://ls1tech.com/11f38b5e-d4b2-40...8-c1ed7ca27913

I will admit this setup is low profile enough and pretty enough, I maybe could be convinced to bust through my hood.

Then to further confuse things, I found this page about it on a Hellcat:
https://www.dragzine.com/features/se...superchargers/
with this photo:
[img]blob:https://ls1tech.com/71c68dd0-92bd-47...a-23b5acc8d971
Oddly enough, once again, it looks like a completely different unit than the other two links showed.

This page also compares and contrasts it to what it sees as its nearest competitor, a Whipple 2.9. That’s not a 1K rwhp unit, so which is it, similar to that smallish Whipple or a 1,000 - we’ll beyond, blower. Seems it couldn’t be both.

But here’s my real concern. Can this low of pressure really create that kind of power? It offers just a little more pressure than my e-force, but claims to practically double my rwhp. Can that be true? Should I wait for this? Will they make it to fit the LSX? Will I have to cut through my hood? ...and when will this thing be available for purchase?

Like I said, I’m not a racer, I’m no mechanic either. I’m really pretty ignorant about a lot of this stuff. That’s why I’m here. I have, however, been around nearly a half century and so my bs meter goes off pretty easily. Surely you real racing/mechanic guys, and not just a lead foot fanatic like myself, will know more about this. I really thank you if you do, because if true, this is worth quite a wait, but if it’s over billed bs that will never deliver its promises, I’d like to move on with something else now.

Thanks,
Jim

Last edited by Vanishing Point; 11-09-2018 at 03:45 PM.
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:40 PM
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My apologies. Apparently I can’t get the photos to show. Noob.
They were straight from the links provided anyway.

i just found it odd that every time it was shown it looked like a completely different unit.
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Old 11-09-2018, 04:07 PM
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They have the 2650's on Chrysler products now making 1000. You have to have the fuel system to support it. I believe they are quoting GM 2650's early next year. The prototype on the Magnuson Camaro was the twin throttle body unit. the new ones are going to be low profile like the Heartbeat with newly designed heat exchangers for cooler iat's.
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Old 11-09-2018, 04:40 PM
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Thanks for sharing. That’s two solid answers, one vague answer that could use some clarifying, and one (the most important one) unaddressed by anybody yet.

I’m willing to wait up to 7 months or so. That would be the latest we could possibly consider “early next year”. - Thank you

That makes sense, prototype. They’re always flashier than the final product. It’s a dramatic presentation in that form. I guess it’s harder to market a completely under the hood, lidded product without using a little artistic creativity. It was certainly the focal point of that car. Like I said, hell it damn near changed my mind to cutting a hole in my hood. Job well done by both the marketing department and you. - Thank you

So if you would please, what did you mean by, “the fuel system to support it”? Of course one must have higher capacity fuel pumps and injectors to make big power. But the same would apply if you want that power out of any other blower. Is that what you were referring to, or is there something more to consider specifically with this blower?

Please believe me when I say I’m sure you know ten times more than me on builds and tunes. So I honestly, humbly, respectfully ask for clarification. What you said sounds like to me if we were comparing Pirelli vs. Goodyear and you said, the Goodyear performs so well because it requires proper air be put into it. Almost as if the reason the Maggie does so well is because the tuner was smart enough to give it enough gas to balance the air, which would then imply that I wasn’t giving the Edelbrock the gas it needed, and/or that other blowers aren’t given proper fuel like the Maggie is. If that’s the variable, that’s just crazy. I did upgrade my fuel system and could give the engine with the eforce more fuel than it was tuned at, but that would just make it too rich. I need more air to use more fuel. As we should assume with the tire tests, that the tester was smart enough to supply proper air in each tire and not let that be the weak variable in the evaluation of either tire, we should too assume any comparison between the two or more blowers was given enough fuel to properly test them. I feel embarrassed to make these statements because I know you know what I just said. Maybe you just spoke too quickly. Maybe I didn’t read what I thought I did. Maybe you thought it worthwhile to point out because there are many people even more ignorant about this stuff than me, and they needed to know that. Or maybe I just completely am missing some special fuel requirement which makes sense out of those unbelievable Maggie numbers. - Please Clarify

On a personal note, I upgraded my fuel system just prior to the flex fuel products which are now on the market and I didn’t want to be stuck requiring E85 only, but now I’m strongly considering replacing them with E85 flex capability. Perhaps I should just sit tight until the GM 2650 version comes out, to take it all into consideration at the same time.

Do those numbers make sense to you? 15lbs = 955rwhp? If so, what’s so magical about Maggie 15lbs as opposed to competition 15lbs? Anybody out there making Close to 1K rwhp at that pressure? - Still Hoping For Input From Anyone On If The Numbers Making Sense

I suppose if you built an engine making 900rwhp prior to being blown, you can claim your blower got you to 1,000rwhp (but so would almost any other blower at that point). The numbers wouldn’t be lying, but the devil’s in the details, if you leave that little “900 starting point” fact out, and just hope everybody thinks the engine was 500 bhp to start with, you get a lot more perceived credit for your blower than may be due. I’m not saying that’s the case here. I’m saying it’s a possibility until they provide more information. Nobody can say what portion of that power was supercharger and how much was baseline.

If they really wanted to tell us what this blower could do they would tell us what that same setup dyno’d at prior to the install. Giving half of an equation seems suspect to me. I get that it has better cooling, but is it so radically different it could result in hundreds more hp? I am fairly mechanically ignorant, so I don’t know for sure, but I don’t think ice cold air would take you from 650 rwhp (Edelbrock 15lbs) to 955 rwhp (Maggie 15lbs). I’m still doubtful this blower performs as implied, but still wanting to believe. - Thoughts On That...Anyone....Beuller?

Last edited by Vanishing Point; 11-10-2018 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 11-10-2018, 10:37 AM
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So here’s what I mean about partial equations.

First, let’s look at the “musclecardefinition” link I provided above. They say, “This is the latest Magnuson Superchargers creation, and as a base, they have chosen the 2016 Chevrolet Camaro SS.”
Now that says they chose the 2016 Camaro SS to put it onto. It doesn’t say the engine it sits on is an unmodified stock 2016 Camaro SS engine (besides the ability to pump more fuel). Neither does it tell you the horsepower of engine they used without the 2650 on it. So the unfinished equation here would look like this:

(unknown base hp of the engine used in the 2016 SS Camaro) X + (Maggie @15lbs.) = 955 rwhp


Second, let’s look at dw456post’s statement. “They have 2650’s on Chrysler products now making 1000”. What Chrysler products? Are those Chrysler products unmodified (besides of course the ability to pump more fuel)? What’s the rwhp of the specific Chrysler product prior to the Maggie being installed onto it? I haven’t found that yet so I call that an unknown variable, X. So the unfinished equation here would look like this:

(unknown base rwhp of the engine used in the Chrysler product) X + (Maggie at unknown lbs.) = 1000


Third, let’s look at the dragzine link and the Magnuson link I provided above. Dragzine says, “At 707 horsepower in stock form, an outsider might see the Dodge Challenger Hellcat as potent and powerful enough already. But this isn’t a hobby that’s about settling for “just enough,” and certainly not whatever power numbers are delivered from the factory. Keeping a vehicle in factory form and not pushing the envelope just a little would defy the very essence of the high performance car culture. And so, for those fortunate owners out there of Chrysler’s menacing muscle car, Magnuson Superchargers has just the ticket with their all-new Vengeance TVS 2650 supercharger system, a 2.65-liter supercharger with a rotating group from Eaton for the Hellcat that’s intended for Chrysler’s 5.7, 6.2, and 6.4-liter engines.”

This statement, nor any other statement on that page provides any resulting hp number after adding the Maggie, so there isn’t even a partial, unfinished equation to write from this information.

That’s very similar to the Magnuson website statement, “This is the largest Supercharger Magnuson has ever developed and it's expected to produce horsepower numbers for LT1/LT4's well over 1000 RWHP with boost levels over 20 psi”.
It doesn’t say what else you might have to do to those engines to get the combination to get to the “well over 1000” mark. (and that’s with me just assuming upgraded fuel supply, exhaust and belt upgrade). I still think there might be something more needed.


Fourth, let’s look at my ride. Forged 409 LSX. I’m going to revert back prior to meth and last pulley change, and prior to the tranny/driveshaft/rear end swaps. So from tranny back (including the tranny) it was stock. The Edelbrock e-force was making 15 lbs. It dyno’d at 636 rwhp. Yeah, it had the basics to allow that power such as upgraded fuel pump and injectors and 3” Magnaflow, bigger belt. I don’t consider those engine modifications, just the standard support peripherals to allow the supercharger to make more power. You put more air in so you can put more fuel in, so you can burn more gas to make more spin and exhaust. You really can’t leave any of that out. It’s all part of a supercharger add on, not what I would call engine modifications. I’m assuming that much is being added to the other two cars above, from whatever their base rwhp was.
A problem with my car in making an equation is I don’t know what my engine would dyno’d at without the Edelbrock. So my unfinished equation here would look like this:

(409 LSX w/ Edelbrock @15lbs.) = 636 rwhp. - Edelbrock SC = (unknown rwhp) X + (Maggie at 15lbs.) = Y

I guess I have a hard time believing I should complete the equation like this:

(409 LSX w/ Edelbrock @15lbs.) = 636 rwhp - 15lbs +15lbs (Maggie) = 955 rwhp.
Like they said the Maggie at 15lbs. obtained for the 2016 Camaro SS. Either that (Maggie) is a magical 15lbs. or the Edelbrock 15lbs. is a horribly substandard 15lbs. or my engine is horribly substandard to a 2016 SS stock engine. Or that SS engine had some incredible work done to it to take it well beyond stock and well beyond my 409.


Or what I really want to know is:

(409 LSX w/ Edelbrock @15lbs.) = 636 rwhp. - Edelbrock SC = (unknown rwhp) X + (Maggie at 23lbs.) = Z
If Z will get me to 1000rwhp.

If either of the the first two equations were complete, it would help me complete my unknown equation to a much more accurate guess. But I’ve not yet seen a completed 2650 equation. I’ve seen a lot of (we hope you fill in a number here that makes this thing look amazing). I’ve seen a lot of “just assume” the engine is completely stock besides allowing for the ability to supply more fuel, more air in and out, and a belt to hold the spin.

What is conspicuously missing everywhere is a statement such as, we took a stock SS engine (or Hellcat engine) making xxx rwhp and added X,Y, and Z and made 1000 rwhp. That is what the guy on the street wants to know. Why do you think they don’t explicitly state that in no uncertain terms? I don’t know, but I find it suspect. I guess I’ll wait a while to see when it finally releases, when somebody out there completes an equation.

But I’m not sure how long I can hold my breath since the dragzine website article said, “According to Mernone, Magnuson hopes to have the Chevrolet product lineup ready for production in the latter part of Q1 next year.”
And that article was dated November 3, 2016.

———————- Edit. Add on. ——————-


Ok, so only after writing all of this dead I realize our very own website put this product front and center as soon as you bring up the homepage, as I was in the forums and hadn’t restarted the site. That’s truly coincidental. Anyway, nothing’s changed. Here’s the quote relating to the closest thing they have to an honest equation. “Fed by a big red blower, Magnuson’s 2016 Camaro SS no longer produces 455 horses, but a bonkers 1,150 at the rear set of Mickey Thompsons at 23 pounds of boost.”

Let’s break that down. It says the 2016 Camaro SS is no longer 455 horses. It says it is now at 1,150. It says it’s fed by a big red blower at 23 lbs. This is still not saying 455 + X, Y, Z = 1,150. All of the statements can be true but it still doesn’t exclude some other unnamed factors, such as major engine work also having been done.

Now I may sound like a cynical *******, but come on, don’t we all live in the same world where the need to be cynical is beyond a need to prove why? I still go back to why don’t they give a simple equation showing stock to 1,150 rwhp? That would remove all question. It didn’t cross their minds? Or there’s a good reason not to divulge that? I have my doubts in them because they know what we’d like to see and withhold it, and because the numbers just don’t make sense. I truly hope, my suspicions are unwarranted and this is the product I hope it is, that they imply it is.

Oh, and our own article says, “As for when you’ll be able to get our hands on Magnuson’s new masterpiece, the company says you’ll have to wait until March 2019 at the earliest.”
See, that right there speaks to the techniques I’ve been suspecting with cynicism all along. What does that statement say? You won’t be able to get one up to March 2019. It doesn’t say you will be able to get one come March 2019. That statement can be true, along with the truth that they won’t be released for the next 5 years. But we, eager to be excited about this, tend to ignore the last few words and hear only March 2019. They state things in such a way as to let you fill in the blanks that you wish to be true. Maybe it will be out in March of 2019, but they certainly didn’t say that.

We wont know **** until whenever it comes out, and until somebody provides a real baseline +X+Y+Z = ? rwhp. I know if I wait for it and it’s not what it’s been implied to be, I’d never listen to anything Magnuson has to say again. And if it is what has been implied, I’ll be happy about it, and still my speculation was warranted by the way they avoided clear statements.

Last edited by Vanishing Point; 11-10-2018 at 10:24 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 01:04 PM
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Magnuson's Camaro has Lingenfelter30% over-- hi pressure pump. Ling 30% oversize LT4 injectors and a Fore triple pump. 16 injectors. 8 direct injected, 8 port injected. 9.14 @153 on stock trans and 416 stroker.
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Old Yesterday, 11:35 PM
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Thanks dw,
It was in your last two ďwordsĒ: 419 Stroker. Except you left out heads and cam shaft.
I finally found the build sheet once you drop the arrow down on the YouTube run

Build is as follows:
2016 6th Gen Camaro 2SS A8
Manley Products 416 Stroker Kit
Livernois Performance ported heads and cam
Magnuson TVS 2650 Supercharger at 15psi
TWIN 90mm throttle bodies
TWIN 105mm MAF meters
MAF Fusion controller for MAFs and additional injectors
American Racing Headers (2" pri, 3.5" coll) Full System Quad Tips
LT4 HP fuel pump
LT4 fuel injectors
8 additional 65lb/hr port injectors
Weldon 1100 in-line booster pump with ZL1 in-tank fuel pump
Carlyle Racing 15" rear conversion kit

As Iíve said several times before, if you know even as little as I do, you know you have to support the supercharger with additional air/exhaust, fuel, and belts. Also the stock transmission and rear end will not hold up at 1000hp, so you ought to change them instead of waiting until they break (like mine did at 636rwhp. First the tranny, then later the rear end). I accept ALL of that as a given, necessary support just to allow and support the supercharger to make that extra hp out of the engine. If it wasnít mentioned, Iíd assume all that anyway.

The part that I donít count as honest and upfront is turning the 376 stock engine into a 416 Stroker, and swapping cam and heads to make the engine itself make much more hp, then not mentioning that, then stating just the part about adding the supercharger to a 2016 Camaro SS and mentioning the combined hp from both supercharger AND engine transformation, in a way to imply it all came from the supercharger. Thatís intentionally misleading. I donít know how many would admit it, but Iím sure thereís many out there who were thinking this supercharger could get 1000rwhp out of their Camaro engine (with the expected peripheral support). But they donít have this 416 Stroker engine, only the block.

Finding a build list answers the question of why the numbers didnít make sense. Major engine work was done to the stock engine, until the only thing stock about it is the block. Unfortunately, what it doesnít do is give us a real baseline. Iíd love to know what everything in that build list above, minus the Maggie, would make rwhp. Then we could know exactly what effect (how much rwhp) just the Maggie made, so we could compare it to other superchargers. Then potential buyers like me could have a reasonable guess what it would do for our own builds. But they donít want to isolate that. Theyíd rather hide the blowerĎs numbers in with the engine transformation numbers.

Thanks again for jumping in. I appreciate that at least somebody chimed in on this. As for me, Iíll wait a while. After it comes out, Iíll see what otherís builds quote as baseline and then Maggie net gain and then guess where it will take mine. My guess is, the reason for all this three card Monty game playing bs is, I need to get the ProCharger to get the power Iím looking for.

Last edited by Vanishing Point; Today at 04:10 AM.
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