Gen 5 Racing Tech Heads, cam, valvetrain, short block discussion

Wheres the Direct Injection LS3?

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Old Oct 23, 2008 | 11:14 AM
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Default Wheres the Direct Injection LS3?

Hey guys was just wondering where the talk about the direct injection l92 heads that were supposed to be ontop of the Gen 5 small block that was going to go into the Camaro?

M Reveals Small-Block V-8 with Direct Injection - wardsauto.com

By Mike Sutton
Aug. 29, 2007
MILFORD, MI Although General Motors Corp. is dividing its resources to cover all fronts of advanced powertrain development, the future of the auto makers foundation OHV small-block V-8 architecture appears secure with the advent of direct-injection gasoline (DIG) technology.

Among the various exhibits of engineering bravado on display at the auto makers proving grounds here, including two-mode hybrid-electric drivetrains, ultra-clean turbodiesels and homogeneous charge compression ignition flex-fuel engines, a seemingly untouched Cadillac Escalade stands out.

Emblazoned with giant E85 banners down its flanks, there is little to indicate the industrys first OHV V-8 with DIG fueling lurks beneath the SUVs pearl white hood.

The experimental engine is based on GMs current all-aluminum Gen IV 6.2L V-8 (L92) found in the Escalade, GMC Yukon Denali and Hummer H2. Depending on the application, the powerplant, which sports port fuel injection, variable valve timing (VVT) and dual-cam phasing, is rated between 380-403 hp in stock form.

However, with a little tweaking to accommodate the auto industrys latest fuel-injection hardware, the prototype V-8 is producing well north of 450 hp (on gasoline), says Dave Sczomak, development engineer-GM Powertrain Advanced Engineering.
Running the engine on E85 ethanol allows for even more power to be coaxed from the big V-8, he adds, noting the 85%/15% ethanol/gasoline mix generally carries a race fuel-like 106 octane rating.

Cruising the web of test roads onsite, the Escalade motors along smoothly with a characteristic large-displacement V-8 burble. However, mashing the gas from a standstill produces a wave of power that propels the big truck at a noticeably more rapid pace than the production version.

Along with the substantial increase in horsepower, DIG also contributes to about a 10% increase in low-end torque, Sczomak says. In addition, fuel economy is moderately improved (3-6%), as are cold-start emissions of hydrocarbons.

To accommodate the DIG fueling system, GM redesigned the L92 cylinder heads, rearranging the intake ports to make room for the eight high-pressure injectors that squirt fuel directly into the side of the combustion chamber at 2,250 psi (155 bar).
New dished pistons similar to a diesels were installed for added clearance of the injectors. They also contribute to a greater compression ratio (11.5:1 vs. 10.5:1), which can be employed because of the high-octane composition of E85 and the knock-reducing cooling effect of introducing fuel directly into the cylinder.

A modified engine controller manages the engines operation, while VVT and Active Fuel Management cylinder deactivation contribute to efficiency and refinement.

The development sounds like a no-brainer for improving nearly every aspect of the near-60-year-old small blocks performance.
However, Tom Stephens, group vice president-GM Powertrain and Quality, notes introducing a production DIG small block would require the next-generation architecture of the engine, or Gen V.

This primarily is due to the huge volumes of V-8 engines GM produces, Sczomak says, noting a radical change in cylinder-head design, for example, becomes a monumental undertaking when taking into account GMs annual build of more than 1 million small block V-8s.

Fortunately, timing is on the auto makers side. The recent introduction of the 08 Corvettes 430-hp LS3 V-8, along with the release later this year of the 08 Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrids 6.0L V-8, represent the last editions of the Gen IV engine family, Stephens says.

All subsequent introductions will be of the Gen V architecture and could have DIG fueling integrated from the ground up, especially considering the refinement of the current test engines operation. The greater specific output provided by DIG also would allow for greater engine downsizing, thereby improving fuel economy even further.

GM would want to introduce this (DIG) on a high-profile vehicle, such as the new (Chevrolet) Camaro or (rear-wheel-drive) Impala, Global Insight analyst John Wolkonowicz says, referring to the auto makers plans for new volume models based on its global RWD platform developed by GM Holden Ltd. in Australia.

The new Camaro, which originally was shown at the 2005 North American International Auto Show in Detroit, is expected to appear later next year as an 09 model, with the all-new RWD Impala taking form sometime early in the next decade. Revisions for future generations of the Corvette and Chevrolet Silverado/GMC Sierra pickups are expected in the same timeframe, Wolkonowicz says.

By capitalizing on areas of significant improvement that remain untapped in its core engine lineup, while simultaneously amping up the arrival of its new hybrid-electric vehicles, clean diesels and hydrogen fuel cells, GM clearly is betting on an ever-fracturing market for advanced powertrains.

As a result, the iconic grumble of the small-block V-8 appears poised to remain a fixture of the automotive landscape for the foreseeable future.
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Old Oct 23, 2008 | 11:31 AM
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This is what i was getting at in my other thread. Its been a decade since they released my Formula, and I'm supposed to plunk down 32K for a new camaro that accelerates slower, gets worse gas mileage, and has a lower top speed? WTF?

If that's what I wanted I would have bought a an 05 mustang.

Last edited by Phoenix64; Oct 23, 2008 at 01:34 PM.
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Old Oct 23, 2008 | 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Phoenix64
This is what i was getting at in my other thread. Its been a decade sine they released my Formula, and I'm supposed to plunk down 32K for a new camaro that accelerates slower, gets worse gas mileage, and has a lower top speed? WTF?

If that's what I wanted I would have bought a an 05 mustang.
Just the thing that bothers me is that the talk of Superchargers in the LS9 and LSA motors seems to have drowned out the DI engine, to me I would rather have the DI engine than the Super charged one.

I would be willing to bet the DI would be the better engine in todays market, especially if they could improve the milage significantly...
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Old Oct 23, 2008 | 12:37 PM
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I've wondered the same thing. Especially for the Vette.
If cafe doom and gloom is coming, fine.
I don't see why the general is holding back.
Give us the good stuff while they can!
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Old Oct 23, 2008 | 06:51 PM
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DI would be harder to mod.
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Old Oct 23, 2008 | 07:05 PM
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"I would rather have the DI engine than the Super charged one."

Ditto. I am sure it will be coming though.

W
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Old Oct 23, 2008 | 07:06 PM
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"DI would be harder to mod."

Have you seen what just a tune does to a Mazda 3's DI engine? Maybe internal engine mods would be more difficult at the beginning...but I think it would be just fine.

W
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Old Oct 24, 2008 | 04:45 AM
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maybe th enew Z28 will be something along the lines of a 302 DI engine that'll rev freely up to 7000rpm and kick major ****!
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Old Oct 24, 2008 | 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Phoenix64
This is what i was getting at in my other thread. Its been a decade since they released my Formula, and I'm supposed to plunk down 32K for a new camaro that accelerates slower, gets worse gas mileage, and has a lower top speed? WTF?

If that's what I wanted I would have bought a an 05 mustang.
I doubt there will be any difference in mileage... maybe 1-2 mpg. The '10 camaro has an LS3, and I'm not sure where you are getting information thinking its slower than your Formula. You would plunk down 32K for just about any new car these days besides an econobox.
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Old Oct 24, 2008 | 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Jon5212
I doubt there will be any difference in mileage... maybe 1-2 mpg. The '10 camaro has an LS3, and I'm not sure where you are getting information thinking its slower than your Formula. You would plunk down 32K for just about any new car these days besides an econobox.
The DI systems for gm are in the works, just give it some more time. Bosch came in and talked to us on how this system works, its very interesting and very advanced.

The MPG would increase waaaaaaay more the 1-2mpg, so you are absolutely wrong.
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Old Oct 24, 2008 | 10:31 AM
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^^^ You misunderstood my reply to Pheonix64, he is stating he doesnt' want to plunk down 32k for a car that gets worse gas mileage and is slower than his current Firebird.
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Old Oct 24, 2008 | 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by WECIV
"DI would be harder to mod."

Have you seen what just a tune does to a Mazda 3's DI engine? Maybe internal engine mods would be more difficult at the beginning...but I think it would be just fine.

W
The MS3 is turbo, most of the gains with a tune are removing the boost restrictions. The problem is those injectors can only put out so much, then what do you do? I wouldn't want an extra few horsepower from my DI LS3. I want like 800rwhp eventually.
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Old Oct 24, 2008 | 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by enginjoe
The MS3 is turbo, most of the gains with a tune are removing the boost restrictions. The problem is those injectors can only put out so much, then what do you do? I wouldn't want an extra few horsepower from my DI LS3. I want like 800rwhp eventually.
I dont think marketing a car to your exact needs is quite what gm has had in mind when not putting out the DI.........
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Old Oct 24, 2008 | 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by stevegrizzle
I dont think marketing a car to your exact needs is quite what gm has had in mind when not putting out the DI.........
Thanks Captain Obvious, but we weren't talking about that. We were talking about how great or not a DI LS3 would be. For people who want to remain stock or thereabouts, it would be awesome. I don't want it until I can buy replacement injectors that can feed a 1000hp E85 swilling beast.
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Old Oct 24, 2008 | 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by UKRob
Just the thing that bothers me is that the talk of Superchargers in the LS9 and LSA motors seems to have drowned out the DI engine, to me I would rather have the DI engine than the Super charged one.

I would be willing to bet the DI would be the better engine in todays market, especially if they could improve the milage significantly...
What? Are you mad? F/I from the factory is 100000X's better then an N/A engine
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Old Oct 25, 2008 | 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Jon5212
I doubt there will be any difference in mileage... maybe 1-2 mpg. The '10 camaro has an LS3, and I'm not sure where you are getting information thinking its slower than your Formula. You would plunk down 32K for just about any new car these days besides an econobox.
I'm not complaining about price, although the R/T challenger is 3k cheaper.

I think its going to be like the GT500 vs the terminators, when the GT500's first came out. 110hp couldn't overcome the weight gain. In this case the weight gain is even more significant.
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Old Oct 25, 2008 | 12:23 PM
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Termys and Condor's weigh about the same thing.

W
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Old Oct 25, 2008 | 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by enginjoe
Thanks Captain Obvious, but we weren't talking about that. We were talking about how great or not a DI LS3 would be. For people who want to remain stock or thereabouts, it would be awesome. I don't want it until I can buy replacement injectors that can feed a 1000hp E85 swilling beast.


Pretty sure the debate is where is it/why didnt the ls3 come with it.....not whether or not it would be good for 1000 hp. That is what your interest is in it, not the entire thread.

Anyways, I think the reasoning behind them not letting it out it what this thread is about!
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