lees02WS6

iTrader: (5)

Need (as I mean it) (noun): A condition or situation in which something is required

Desire (noun): conscious impulse toward something that promises enjoyment or satisfaction in its attainment

More like "People want it, have the means to pay for it, and supplier who will supply it at an agreable price"

technical

Skid pad numbers aren't an accurate measurement of what the car can do. But for comparision sake, use a real driver: http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....3&print_page=y

That's right 1.00g for the boxster S.

If only you could drive to work with me. I push it pretty good.

But I also AutoX. That's where I really push the limits of the suspension...well mostly the tires. AutoX is too slow compared to me doing 60mph on an on ramp. I'd like to go 80mpg. But the car does this really funky thing once you load the suspension laterally...

black_knight

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=WECIV]A 1957 Chevy could take turns above the posted speed. Is that all the performance we need?

Yes, but in that case you're talking about pennies on the dollar. Look, I know how economies of scale work, and that the car isn't going to come from the factory as a personalized just-for-me car.

I understand that the majority opinion is for IRS and you don't need to argue that point. We could argue about the business case of cost vs. ride quality all day long. But I don't care to.

I'm here to talk about what the people here should want. I think that wanting something just because people say it's good is BS. And I don't think the majority of voters for IRS here have a non-BS reason. I've agreed to a few non-BS reasons: autoXing, living where the roads are extremely crappy, or being a total wuss when it comes to bumpiness. (okay, maybe that one is not "legit" per se )

That's fine but his claim, that I was refuting, is clearly delusional.

Again, to say that the focus of a Musclecar is not on handling doesn't mean that I want it to handle like a truck. It means I won't expect it to handle like a 'vette. Nobody seems to acknowledge an in-between. It's like it'll either be world-class or total crap.

Again, my argument isn't about need, but whether it is even useable. More acceleration is useable anywhere, anytime until you start spinning the tires. More handling? Where, and how, can you use that? I'm skeptical that so many people would have an actual use for it.

Speak for yourself. You've explained your reason. I'm persisting because I doubt the other (as of now) 60 people who voted for IRS live in Europe like you do.

black_knight

iTrader: (1)

Sure, fine. People can and will buy what they want. That doesn't mean I can't call it stupid if their purchases are stupid. That doesn't mean I can't call them a waste of the buyer's money if they're a waste of the buyer's money. I don't mean to stop them by force. They're free to use their money as they please, but I'm not required to say that it's a good idea.

Also, I'm not criticizing enjoyment; I'm criticizing the desire for something that one won't actually enjoy.

black_knight

iTrader: (1)

Didn't I say that was legit? I'm not even arguing against you if you AutoX. Why are you trying to argue with me?

WECIV

Black-Knight, you do not have to sanction our reasons as legit or not. We decide that.

W

black_knight

iTrader: (1)

You're absolutely right. It isn't my say-so of it making sense that counts. It's only whether it does, in fact, make sense. I can't (and have no desire to!) decide that for everyone. You all have to decide that for yourselves.

I see people make this decision based on the popular idea that "IRS is better," rather than thinking about whether they will benefit from it or not. They want IRS because they read it in a magazine, or because the europeans all seem to think so. They substitute the thinking of others for their own.

When I discuss the topic with some people, I'm not arguing with a person, but with the magazine they blindly decided to mimic.

I speak up because that kind of thing annoys the hell out of me. The last thing I would want is for people to start substituting my thinking and to have someone who really would benefit from IRS argue against it because of what I have said.

So, to clarify, I ask the question "are you an AutoXer?" not because I want everyone to answer me, but because you should ask the question to yourself and think for yourself.

Sorry if I gave some other impression.

lees02WS6

iTrader: (5)

So you're argument against the IRS for the everyday driver is - you should only want something if you actually need it?

FL01SS

I've never been in a GTO, so I'm curious how they handle compared to a F-body. I know there's other differences between the cars other than just the IRS, but in general, does the GTO handle better than the F-bodies?

technical

I only autoX a couple times per year. So while that is a consideration, I mostly want an IRS for daily driving.

Just because you're wrong doesn't mean I'm arguing with you.

old and good

iTrader: (3)

i think the fact is that even though IRS handles better when you realy push it to the limits, IRS'S Daily driving manners are also better! its quieter and everyone who has a 4gen has probably noticed that when you are making turns and your going over uneven roads the backend acts terrable this happens for example when crossing worn intersections.

The Fact is that irs doesnt have to be much more expensive than solid axle. just look at the japs. they allt said goodby to the solid more than a decade ago and still culd compete with the domestic cars even thoug most of them were manufactured abroad.

skidpad dosnt tell the whole storry. just see for example the trackruns in topgear, even though some cars get the same tracktimes they stil handle differantly just see the viper vs the vette! they perform simmilarly but still the viper handles like crap.

also one more thing can be achived with irs. if you enjoy making your car go sideways like i know many people here like to do then irs is the way to go. its manners are more smooth and irs offers more controlability undir sideways action

WECIV

The new coupe SRT10 Viper handles quite well...

W

old and good

iTrader: (3)

yes it does but not compared to The new Z06. the viper wheelocks all over the place and whatnot

black_knight

iTrader: (1)

"Need" used very broadly. As in "would have some use for it" or "would enjoy it enough to be worth the extra $." Anything except "the magazines say it's better" or "it will impress the euro crowd" or some other BS like that.

If you've owned a 4th gen Fbody and said to yourself, "No, I really don't like this handling. I really wish this could be better," and you don't just mean it in the sense of "new cars should be better as a general rule," but in the sense that you really are dissatisfied with your 4th gen's handling, then that's a very real reason.

Personally, I think the handling on my formula is fine. When I want a 'vette, I'll buy a 'vette.

black_knight

iTrader: (1)

Haha, I'll drink to that.

lees02WS6

iTrader: (5)

You have a lot of anger towards Europeans. Their cars aren't designed the way they are because their snooty. They evolved that way because that's the way they drive, and overtime such features were demanded. They scoff at leaf springs and live axles and other such things because that technology has been superseded, and they are perplexed why we insist on continuing to use them. Remember also that what they pay for their cars is not quite the same as what we pay. Their cars are more expensive here because of tarrifs, taxes, and an exchange rate that devalues the dollar.

Making the assertion or even implying that "new cars (or any other product) should NOT be better as a general rule" is asinine. We are always tyring and in pursuit of making things better.

If I lived where you live I might think my live axle formula was fine as well. Why don't you come drive the speed limit (45mph) on the way to my job on Route 309. We'll see how much you love your live axle when it's skipping towards the dividers.

WECIV

"yes it does but not compared to The new Z06. the viper wheelocks all over the place and whatnot"

The new SRT10 coupe understeers a bit...however, the Z06 is harder to drive and has a goodly deal of electronic nannies. The SRT10 Coupe is a really good sports car...and is easier to drive than the Z06. The Z06 is ultimately better...but the SRT10 is easier to drive. I however, do prefer the Z06 quite a bit to the SRT10.

W

WECIV

"If you've owned a 4th gen Fbody and said to yourself, "No, I really don't like this handling. I really wish this could be better," and you don't just mean it in the sense of "new cars should be better as a general rule,""

I have said that about my FBody!!! When you drive a really well sorted out car...it does make our FBodies seem a bit sullen in the handling department!!!

W

technical

A bit...my SS handles like a tank with steam rollers for wheels. At least the 5th gen will have the looks to match.

GIZMO

iTrader: (8)

How often have you driven a new Z06 and Viper? Sounds like you have a lot of experience driving them.