View Poll Results: What type of rear shall we have?
IRS...good for road racing and fine for dragging
172
51.04%
Make mine a solid rear...I like to run around with my shoe laces tied together!!!
165
48.96%
Voters: 337. You may not vote on this poll
Maro...IRS or Solid Rear?
Originally Posted by black_knight
I don't think you understand what I mean. I'm not arguing from "need," in the way you mean it. "Need" (as you mean it) isn't defininable. It's a BS term. It means anything and nothing.
What I'm saying is: okay, folks... you're demanding IRS. Why? For what purpose? Will you actually use it? What use will you, personally, put this feature to? Is there any sense in asking for something you'll never use?
I'm trying to understand your argument, Lee... it seems to me like: "people want it. Don't question it.
What I'm saying is: okay, folks... you're demanding IRS. Why? For what purpose? Will you actually use it? What use will you, personally, put this feature to? Is there any sense in asking for something you'll never use?
I'm trying to understand your argument, Lee... it seems to me like: "people want it. Don't question it.
Need (as I mean it) (noun): A condition or situation in which something is required
Desire (noun): conscious impulse toward something that promises enjoyment or satisfaction in its attainment
More like "People want it, have the means to pay for it, and supplier who will supply it at an agreable price"
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From: Fat Chance Hotel
Originally Posted by black_knight
The BMW 3 series does .8's. What the hell does a car have to do before you think it's something other than "weak?" I think you're full of it.
Where and how are you driving? I'd be more inclined to believe you if you provided a specific example of an instance where you thought "this thing doesn't handle well enough."
Where and how are you driving? I'd be more inclined to believe you if you provided a specific example of an instance where you thought "this thing doesn't handle well enough."
That's right 1.00g for the boxster S.
If only you could drive to work with me. I push it pretty good.
But I also AutoX. That's where I really push the limits of the suspension...well mostly the tires. AutoX is too slow compared to me doing 60mph on an on ramp. I'd like to go 80mpg. But the car does this really funky thing once you load the suspension laterally...
[QUOTE=WECIV]A 1957 Chevy could take turns above the posted speed. Is that all the performance we need?
Yes, but in that case you're talking about pennies on the dollar. Look, I know how economies of scale work, and that the car isn't going to come from the factory as a personalized just-for-me car.
I understand that the majority opinion is for IRS and you don't need to argue that point. We could argue about the business case of cost vs. ride quality all day long. But I don't care to.
I'm here to talk about what the people here should want. I think that wanting something just because people say it's good is BS. And I don't think the majority of voters for IRS here have a non-BS reason. I've agreed to a few non-BS reasons: autoXing, living where the roads are extremely crappy, or being a total wuss when it comes to bumpiness. (okay, maybe that one is not "legit" per se
)
That's fine but his claim, that I was refuting, is clearly delusional.
Again, to say that the focus of a Musclecar is not on handling doesn't mean that I want it to handle like a truck. It means I won't expect it to handle like a 'vette. Nobody seems to acknowledge an in-between. It's like it'll either be world-class or total crap.
Again, my argument isn't about need, but whether it is even useable. More acceleration is useable anywhere, anytime until you start spinning the tires. More handling? Where, and how, can you use that? I'm skeptical that so many people would have an actual use for it.
Speak for yourself. You've explained your reason. I'm persisting because I doubt the other (as of now) 60 people who voted for IRS live in Europe like you do.
There are elements of your internals that are not utilize and could be removed
I understand that the majority opinion is for IRS and you don't need to argue that point. We could argue about the business case of cost vs. ride quality all day long. But I don't care to.
I'm here to talk about what the people here should want. I think that wanting something just because people say it's good is BS. And I don't think the majority of voters for IRS here have a non-BS reason. I've agreed to a few non-BS reasons: autoXing, living where the roads are extremely crappy, or being a total wuss when it comes to bumpiness. (okay, maybe that one is not "legit" per se
)
.8 in the twisties is not what really matter...Is the ride poised, balanced, easy to drive?
But, others on this thread including you yourself have stated that muscle cars are about being good at one thing above all others (price can only allow so many things you stated).
The old TPI's were more than enough...powerwise for daily commute, why do we need an LS7 in the new camaro?
It is not that we are hostile it is that we have explained our reason to adnausium and yet you persist.
Originally Posted by lees02WS6
More like "People want it, have the means to pay for it, and supplier who will supply it at an agreable price"
Also, I'm not criticizing enjoyment; I'm criticizing the desire for something that one won't actually enjoy.
Originally Posted by WECIV
Black-Knight, you do not have to sanction our reasons as legit or not. We decide that.
W
W
I see people make this decision based on the popular idea that "IRS is better," rather than thinking about whether they will benefit from it or not. They want IRS because they read it in a magazine, or because the europeans all seem to think so. They substitute the thinking of others for their own.
When I discuss the topic with some people, I'm not arguing with a person, but with the magazine they blindly decided to mimic.
I speak up because that kind of thing annoys the hell out of me. The last thing I would want is for people to start substituting my thinking and to have someone who really would benefit from IRS argue against it because of what I have said.
So, to clarify, I ask the question "are you an AutoXer?" not because I want everyone to answer me, but because you should ask the question to yourself and think for yourself.
Sorry if I gave some other impression.
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I've never been in a GTO, so I'm curious how they handle compared to a F-body. I know there's other differences between the cars other than just the IRS, but in general, does the GTO handle better than the F-bodies?
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From: Fat Chance Hotel
Originally Posted by black_knight
Didn't I say that was legit? I'm not even arguing against you if you AutoX. Why are you trying to argue with me?
Just because you're wrong doesn't mean I'm arguing with you.
i think the fact is that even though IRS handles better when you realy push it to the limits, IRS'S Daily driving manners are also better! its quieter and everyone who has a 4gen has probably noticed that when you are making turns and your going over uneven roads the backend acts terrable this happens for example when crossing worn intersections.
The Fact is that irs doesnt have to be much more expensive than solid axle. just look at the japs. they allt said goodby to the solid more than a decade ago and still culd compete with the domestic cars even thoug most of them were manufactured abroad.
skidpad dosnt tell the whole storry. just see for example the trackruns in topgear, even though some cars get the same tracktimes they stil handle differantly just see the viper vs the vette! they perform simmilarly but still the viper handles like crap.
also one more thing can be achived with irs. if you enjoy making your car go sideways like i know many people here like to do then irs is the way to go. its manners are more smooth and irs offers more controlability undir sideways action
The Fact is that irs doesnt have to be much more expensive than solid axle. just look at the japs. they allt said goodby to the solid more than a decade ago and still culd compete with the domestic cars even thoug most of them were manufactured abroad.
skidpad dosnt tell the whole storry. just see for example the trackruns in topgear, even though some cars get the same tracktimes they stil handle differantly just see the viper vs the vette! they perform simmilarly but still the viper handles like crap.
also one more thing can be achived with irs. if you enjoy making your car go sideways like i know many people here like to do then irs is the way to go. its manners are more smooth and irs offers more controlability undir sideways action
Originally Posted by lees02WS6
So you're argument against the IRS for the everyday driver is - you should only want something if you actually need it?
If you've owned a 4th gen Fbody and said to yourself, "No, I really don't like this handling. I really wish this could be better," and you don't just mean it in the sense of "new cars should be better as a general rule," but in the sense that you really are dissatisfied with your 4th gen's handling, then that's a very real reason.
Personally, I think the handling on my formula is fine. When I want a 'vette, I'll buy a 'vette.
Last edited by black_knight; Jun 29, 2006 at 10:18 PM.
Originally Posted by black_knight
"Need" used very broadly. As in "would have some use for it" or "would enjoy it enough to be worth the extra $." Anything except "the magazines say it's better" or "it will impress the euro crowd" or some other BS like that.
If you've owned a 4th gen Fbody and said to yourself, "No, I really don't like this handling. I really wish this could be better," and you don't just mean it in the sense of "new cars should be better as a general rule," but in the sense that you really are dissatisfied with your 4th gen's handling, then that's a very real reason.
Personally, I think the handling on my formula is fine. When I want a 'vette, I'll buy a 'vette.
If you've owned a 4th gen Fbody and said to yourself, "No, I really don't like this handling. I really wish this could be better," and you don't just mean it in the sense of "new cars should be better as a general rule," but in the sense that you really are dissatisfied with your 4th gen's handling, then that's a very real reason.
Personally, I think the handling on my formula is fine. When I want a 'vette, I'll buy a 'vette.
You have a lot of anger towards Europeans. Their cars aren't designed the way they are because their snooty. They evolved that way because that's the way they drive, and overtime such features were demanded. They scoff at leaf springs and live axles and other such things because that technology has been superseded, and they are perplexed why we insist on continuing to use them. Remember also that what they pay for their cars is not quite the same as what we pay. Their cars are more expensive here because of tarrifs, taxes, and an exchange rate that devalues the dollar.
Making the assertion or even implying that "new cars (or any other product) should NOT be better as a general rule" is asinine. We are always tyring and in pursuit of making things better.
If I lived where you live I might think my live axle formula was fine as well. Why don't you come drive the speed limit (45mph) on the way to my job on Route 309. We'll see how much you love your live axle when it's skipping towards the dividers.
Last edited by lees02WS6; Jun 30, 2006 at 09:06 AM.
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From: Gulf Shores and DC
"yes it does but not compared to The new Z06. the viper wheelocks all over the place and whatnot"
The new SRT10 coupe understeers a bit...however, the Z06 is harder to drive and has a goodly deal of electronic nannies. The SRT10 Coupe is a really good sports car...and is easier to drive than the Z06. The Z06 is ultimately better...but the SRT10 is easier to drive. I however, do prefer the Z06 quite a bit to the SRT10.
W
The new SRT10 coupe understeers a bit...however, the Z06 is harder to drive and has a goodly deal of electronic nannies. The SRT10 Coupe is a really good sports car...and is easier to drive than the Z06. The Z06 is ultimately better...but the SRT10 is easier to drive. I however, do prefer the Z06 quite a bit to the SRT10.
W
Thread Starter
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From: Gulf Shores and DC
"If you've owned a 4th gen Fbody and said to yourself, "No, I really don't like this handling. I really wish this could be better," and you don't just mean it in the sense of "new cars should be better as a general rule,""
I have said that about my FBody!!! When you drive a really well sorted out car...it does make our FBodies seem a bit sullen in the handling department!!!
W
I have said that about my FBody!!! When you drive a really well sorted out car...it does make our FBodies seem a bit sullen in the handling department!!!
W
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From: Fat Chance Hotel
Originally Posted by WECIV
I have said that about my FBody!!! When you drive a really well sorted out car...it does make our FBodies seem a bit sullen in the handling department!!!
W
W
Originally Posted by WECIV
"yes it does but not compared to The new Z06. the viper wheelocks all over the place and whatnot"
The new SRT10 coupe understeers a bit...however, the Z06 is harder to drive and has a goodly deal of electronic nannies. The SRT10 Coupe is a really good sports car...and is easier to drive than the Z06. The Z06 is ultimately better...but the SRT10 is easier to drive. I however, do prefer the Z06 quite a bit to the SRT10.
W
The new SRT10 coupe understeers a bit...however, the Z06 is harder to drive and has a goodly deal of electronic nannies. The SRT10 Coupe is a really good sports car...and is easier to drive than the Z06. The Z06 is ultimately better...but the SRT10 is easier to drive. I however, do prefer the Z06 quite a bit to the SRT10.
W
How often have you driven a new Z06 and Viper? Sounds like you have a lot of experience driving them.