mzoomora

iTrader: (36)

I would love that, but it is purely wishful thinking. There are Civics and Cobalts in the 25K range. I think that a LS3 in the 33-35k range is more realistic, but the cheaper the better. Also, make it available with an A6.

Sharpe

iTrader: (7)

Scary. Just scary.

I'm starting to lose faith, and I've been one of the blind followers all up until now... February of next year... A lot could change between now and then.

GM has always focused on the lower-performance, "stylish, fun-to-drive" Camaros. The fact that they're making such a big fuss out of this makes me worry that they're already trying to prepare us for a Camaro that's even more focused on being "stylish and fun to drive."

If this car doesn't have a non-"special edition" LS3 equivalent, I will dub it a failure in my own eyes. I will no longer be a hardcore, GM-only fan. Ford will have a place in my garage, as will any other car maker.

I place 25% of the blame on the American people, 50% on the government, and 25% on GM for this situation.

venomhp

iTrader: (13)

^^^agreed

99Andrew

iTrader: (3)

With GM's 38 Billion dollar loss for '07, this thing is in line to get the axe. The Camaro isn't going to save the company.

mzoomora

iTrader: (36)

People are making such a big deal out of that loss, but the vast majority of it was planned to a certain extent.

"GM's annual loss of $38.7 billion largely was due to a third-quarter charge related to unused tax credits.

The 2007 loss topped GM's previous record in 1992, when the company lost $23.4 billion because of a change in health care accounting, according to Standard & Poor's Compustat.

Excluding the tax charge and other special items, GM lost $23 million, or 4 cents per share, for the year, compared with a net income of $2.2 billion in 2006, beating Wall Street's expectations."

$23 million is not nearly as drastic as $38 BILLION.

RevGTO

iTrader: (12)

The Camaro isn't going to save the company, and if they knew what we know now about CAFE at the time they gave the go-ahead signal, it never would have made it. Camaro production was to be a part of bigger plans for rear drive, and that's supposedly been dropped. But they're too far into the Camaro itself to turn back now.

venomhp

iTrader: (13)

if anything I could see the new camaro only coming out for a few short years.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

False.

I owned one for 6 years. They break with useage, just like every other OEM. They have also released some poor designs that have caused well known issues in certain models, and more recently, many recalls.

Guess what.... they are no better than GM. Like it or not.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I have one thing to say about these "limited edition V8s".

GM's "special" V8 cars (like the ZO6/ZR1) suck, because they always come with only an M6. I know this is largely to save costs, so they don't have to qualify both trans types through EPA testing, and they figure the M6 will be the majority of sales anyway. But I want an A6, and if I can't get that then they can take their "special edition" V8 Camaro and blow it out their ***!

Ah. I feel better now. So here's hoping for an LS3/A6 combo for less than $35k.

02CamaroSS

iTrader: (1)

Just another thought....

We probably only see about 10% of all the underlying problems major companies have deal with. No company is going to show anybody all of its cards before it has to. Those buyouts are just the tip of the iceberg. And I'm sad to see it happening...... I am a big fan of Chevrolet. All I can say is that I hope, those that are in charge of GM's future, can pull it off. When I read news like this it's just plain discouraging..... But! I'm crossing my fingers for them.

wannabess00

iTrader: (1)

Oh lets see. Where to start with this one.

More prone to miss work... Im gonna assume youre not implying a poor work ethic but instead discussing vacation time. The average 25-30 year worker is given 4 weeks plus 2 weeks Personal time. But you can subtract 2 weeks due to plant shut downs. But I fail to see how that plays a large role in GMs finacial trouble.

More prone to get hurt? Lets be realistic here. We're talking about 45-50 year olds not a 72 year old, they are more seasoned and aware of hazzards and only equal 1-2 % of the OSHA recordable rate per year as opposed to the 85% OSHA rate held by the 1-5 year employees who are less experienced.

Now while the GM may throw their best shot at fixing their troubles without facing reality consider this...

The Average UAW factory worker Yearly cost
Teir 1 =$60,000 ...........................Rick Wagoneer(GM CEO)$10.4MILLION
teir 2 =$40-45,000.........................Bob Lutz(Vice ChairGMNA)$4.4 MILLION
Teir 3 =$25-35,000

They say they cant afford the workers??? Nonsense!! They are not trying hard enough to cut costs in the car(i.e. dont **** away profit to invest in seat heater technology). Is it a wise idea to lower wages of the employees contract after contract?? Well, concidering your employees are also your customers that have to have the money to buy your products Id say thats just another good way to stab yourself

TriShield

I don't know, the statements coming out of GM these days regarding this car and RWD isn't very reassuring. I don't see Ford, Chrysler, the Germans or anyone else publicly flailing around or contradicting themselves regarding their performance cars.

Out of everything GM makes this is one vehicle I thought they couldn't screw up.

JD_AMG

I guess you forgot the Camaro is a performance car, not a truck...
The LS Al. block is almost 100lbs lighter than the iron block, thats a lot of weight over the front end of the car for those of us who like to do more than just go fast in a strait line.
If GM wants this car to sell to more than just the chevy faithful its going to have to perform(this means turning and braking), and that means being lighter.
I'm not saying the LS3 should be the starter V8 engine, but I rather have a slightly more expencive Camaro that delivers, than a bloated cheap one that is only good for looks and 1/4 mile runs. If they are going to try the Camaro again, they can't cut any corners this time around.

mzoomora

iTrader: (36)

Ok, where to start with this one.......

So YOU are going to argue the effects of aging on the human body? The difference between a 25 and 55 year old? Countless workplace and health care studies that prove exactly what I said?

Also you have to consider the additional reasons that they are doing it. A lot of the people being offered the buy out have already reached retirement age and benefits, so why not get them off of your books and replace them with lower paid, less senior employees with lower cost benefit packages. Do some research into how this will lower benefit costs as well as payroll costs.

You can say this is a bad move by GM, but this is what they need to do to compete with a non union competitive workforce. The amount of costs they are cutting is a very good move by them and will help to reduce costs long term and improve profits long term. You can comment about seat heaters all you want, but benefits and legacy costs add much more to the cost of EVERY vehicle than seat heaters. THOUSANDS, to EVERY VEHICLE.

As far as the employees being customers and needing money- this is a buyout. Some will be getting $140k if they accept it. Not to mention their pensions. Also, they are not lowering the pay of current workers. And where do you come up with them doing it contract after contract? Facts are that GM was very generous with the UAW while they were doing well. They created job pools and continue to pay people who are not even working- and pay them well.

People are acting like they are laying people off and replacing them with overseas workers, which is far from the case. If anything you could spin it to say they are creating jobs. A person who is retired and collecting a pension is not unemployed, and the person who replaces him is getting a new job. Both have income.

All while GM reduces their costs to help compete with foreign competition.

JD_AMG

Wouldn't work in Japan, they have heavy taxes on displacement, and most cars driven there are very very small.
Might work in some parts of Europe, but to do so this car needs to perform atleast on par with other cars there (see braking and handling).

mzoomora

iTrader: (36)

Also, all this talk about the Camaro getting axed is pretty far fetched. They already said when all the CAFE talk started that the Camaro was too far along to be cut and that the line that would be affected most was Pontiac. It may live a shortened life, but that depends on how profitable it is and how well other cars do with MPG to bring up averages. The 35 mpg also isnt an immediate thing either, so they have some time. The biggest loss will be the RWD Impala if it doesnt get made.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

This is an excellent post. It is completely accurate and very clear.

People need to READ and UNDERSTAND this before jumping to conclusions about the GM buyouts.

WECIV

"The fact that they're making such a big fuss out of this makes me worry that they're already trying to prepare us for a Camaro that's even more focused on being "stylish and fun to drive.""

Damn straight...I think they are trying to get us ready for a hellaciously bad shock. No ******* way an LS3 should cost 35k...at that price I will just get a used C6, it would be a much wiser decision. Sure have an optioned out LS3 camaro for 35k...but there had better be one you can afford sub-30k. Seriously...the most I would pay brand new for an LS3...is 29k. GM had better not price this car out of our range. Seriously...this is a CAMARO...it is meant to be a poor man's car...it is not made out of gold.

W

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

In 1998, my Z28 was over $24k with popular (but not all) options. T-tops, traction control, chrome wheels, Monsoon, rear window defogger. If someone added on leather and 3.23s it would’ve been $25-26k fully loaded. And that was 10 years ago. In 2000, my WS6 (with every option except 12-disc changer) stickered for $31.6k. And that was 8 years ago

Personally I don't expect a decently loaded (meaning common/popular options), LS3 Camaro to run less than $30k in 2009. Most people don’t want a bare bones car just to race, so there’s very little incentive to build that. During the ’98-’02 years, one could factory order a stripped down V8 Camaro for $21k in 1998 and $23k by 2002. But how many were ordered? Very few. Because demand for that type of car is low. Personally, I think low $30s is VERY fair for a commonly optioned 2010 LS3 Camaro, with FULLY loaded/top model cars going for a bit more.

Don’t get me wrong, I love to pick and choose options, but we have to face the fact that stripper cars are NOT popular in the general market, even within the enthusiast sector. Just look how many people on this site always shop for fully loaded used LS1s...most in fact.

As for just buying a C6, that’s a great option. But you’re buying one used to get it for $35k. Some would rather have a brand new car for that type of money. As for which is the better investment (Corvette or Camaro), truth is that in the long run, their deprecation percentage is close to the same if you were to buy both new and sell them at 5-6 years old (just looking at historic data from 6 year old vette prices vs when new, and 6 year old Camaro prices vs when new). If you don’t believe me, just look at what a 2002 Corvette cost when new, and what they list for today. Then do the same for a 2002 Camaro.

Z Fury

iTrader: (1)

I'm still in "wait and see" mode on this car. As an accountant, I see that $38 billion loss as more of a paper loss and not a cause for serious alarm. I believe it was stated that their loss from operations was around $23 million, which is far easier to believe. If they had a loss from operations of $37 billion, there'd be a slim chance that they'd survive the coming year! So that said, I don't see the new Camaro being in jeopardy. For the time being, all we have is speculation on V8 options for this car. I know what I'm looking for in this car, and if they make it that way, I'll buy it, even if that means waiting till the 2011 model.

I know it is a message board, and everyone wants to be the one to predict exactly how this car is going to end up, but some people need to step away from the panic button and take a few breaths. That is all.