Akira_X

No offense but why is the expectation of an LS3 powered Camaro retarded?
The Camaro has usually always had a hand me down Vette engine has it not?

As for the idea of a base v8, isn't that less cost effective than just having two models ie; V6 RS and v8 z28?

From what I understand the camaro is going to be in direct competition with the mustang as well as the upcoming challenger. So when I see limited production "fire breather" what I get out of it is that they are saying that there will be many more Base models than z28's. Now isn't that how it's always been?

The L76? why? how does that seem more probable? For the longest time a bunch of spokes people have been spouting about how it will have the same engine as the c6, granted they have been saying ls2 but still. I don't know man I just think that the LS3 just makes more sense, it follows historical trend. Not to mention the fact that if they make and underpowered z28 the challenger will have completely dominated, and I just can't see gm giving the pony car title up so easily...

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Huh?

The LS1s made 350hp in 2002 (regardless of factory ratings, dynos have proven that). I'm not sure what the L76s dyno at, and whether or not the 364hp is factual or fictional (like the 310hp rated '02 Camaro). But I think it's fairly certain that the new Camaro will be heavier than the 4th gen. So 364hp + more weight vs. 350hp and less weight = a driver's race. Far from "spanking the ****" out of anything.

As for low 13s and possibily very high 12s with a freak car and driver expected out of an L76 5th gen, welcome to the 4th gen Camaro with an LS1 and Evan Smith behind the wheel. Where were you from '98-'02? LOL.

CaseyEaterMach1

That's the problem with al the new muscle cars, all the extra weight. Look at the Challenger 4,200 lbs, the new Mustang GT's 3,500 lbs with no options (had they weighted 3,200 like their predecessors and had 300hp they be running 13 flat no problem) the GTO's 3,700lbs (at least they goats are like luxury cars inside). Kind of reminds me of the 60's all over again the engines got bigger and the cars got heavier but they really didn't get that much faster.

A 1965 HO 289 mustang could run low 14's stock 5 years later big block cars ran 14 flat maybe a few clicks better but also couldn't handle for **** and got worst fuel economy. If these new cars don't lighten up I have no reason to buy one, my Mach 1 and all of your F-bodies will run with the new challengers get better fuel economy and even if we adjust for inflation cost less when they were new.

Let’s just hope that GM keeps the weight down a little. If it weighs as much as a GTO but sports an LS3 it should easily be in the high 12’s but please don’t let it be 2 tons.

Vertigo

iTrader: (1)

The world is flat! The world is catching up to the US and big unaviodable changes are underway. This isn't necessarily a bad thing!!! The US has already seen the effects of being challenged EXPECIALLY in the automotive industry! What are the results for the american consumer? Better products in everyway for everyone. A focused domestic goal aimed at upgrading the quality of products for everyone. GM is in a tight spot and they are going to be forced to explore options. Now that doesn't mean jobs our going to be outsourced, off-shored or any of that, but they very well could be for what I predict to be a few years. Not forever! The fact is Americans are getting used to their fat paychecks while other countries are getting in the game at much lower wages. Now here is where it gets tricky! Everybody assumes that this is going to cause a permanent dip in our economy. I don't believe this! That is like saying that there is a fixed amount of jobs in the world and it can only be allocated as such. This is wrong! As mundane lower end jobs move internationally new ideas and demands will come along to fill this so called void. This happens all the time but these smaller new jobs dont get as much attention as the 5,000 people laid off today headlines like this very one. Now these countries with lower wages are not trying to drive our salaries down! But initally that is going to happen. But eventually once these countries economic situations become better and better off so will their salaries! Which will eventually level the playing field world wide!

To take an example from a book i read. 100 some years ago most americans worked in agriculture and related fields. But today due to innovation and industrialization fo farming we need less than 5% of our population to grow our food. What if the government decided to stop trade shut off the boarders and stick our heads in the grounds and refused to embrace mechanized agriculter? "If horses could vote there would never have been cars!".

We all want GM to succeed. But they will have to adapt in order to do it!

hc8719

GM needs to get rid of the UAW, thats their biggest nightmare, not Toyota.

Hydramatic

None taken. I know you guys are coming to expect a Corvette-based V8 just because they did it in the 4th gens and very last of the Thirds(vaguely....), but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to do right now, expecially not for the very SLOWEST V8 option... certainly not for a car that's supposed to be around $25K. I think people jump to conclusions every time I say that a smaller, cheaper-to-produce V8 should be in the base eight car a lot. Just because I say that does not mean I don't want to see an LSA or LS9(or even an LS3 of all things...) in some version of the Camaro. I want there to be some real heavy hitters in the lineup that will BRUTALIZE the competition....I just think you guys are being completely unreasonable by suggesting that a low-production, all aluminum, 43x horsepower V8 should be the next option up from the (not really that bad anymore) V6 models.

Think of it this way....you can get a new Camaro, armed with an L76 and run close to what the BEST of the old F-bodys could do, all the while having much improved handling and an interior that doesn't hurt you, all for $25K. That doesn't sound like a bad thing to me at all.

A car that runs borderline 13/12's for 25K that doesn't suck at everything else and can get BETTER gas mileage than the old '02's because of DOD and new tech? I don't know about you guys, but that sounds like a recipe for a KILLER deal of a car, one that would sell in the quantities that the old RS model used to, one that would beat the Mustang GT up and still be around the same price.

The LS3 model can be around $30K, so as not to be unreasonable, and let the special editions be blower/suspension cars.

As for the comments about the Challenger raping an L76 Camaro....I don't think that comparing a $31K car to a $25K car is entirely fair. I think an LS3 Camaro priced at around $30K would be a true competitor to that car, and probably end up burying the Challenger like the L76 would bury the Mustang.

Does my logic make a little more sense now?

Also, the L76 might be heavier than the LS1, but it makes more torque to make up for it in stock form. If you guys are really complaining about how it's going to handle with that extra 100lbs up front, just unbolt the rear seats, put em in the trunk with some sort of tie-down, and put a full size spare out back to even out the weight. Look at that, balance is restored.

"But it'll be like 30lbs heavier! WAHHH!" Go on a diet fatty...
or just buy the LS3 or a Corvette....

nanokpsi

Who do you blame for the greed? Certainly the uneduacted masses that unionized to get more money because they feel they deserve 60k a year to not to go to college. Certainly the unions share some of the blame for manufacturing job losses. If you are running a public company your job is to increase profits in order to kepp your job. It sure makes sense to find someone you can pay a fraction of the wages to do the same work. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to turn a wrench or work a machine

I don't think you should get causght up in the motor's designation that come sin the car. The new mustng v8 will be around 350hp, so as long as the v8 Camaro has at least that it will sell well.
I don't care as much about the ls3, as I would prefer an LSA anyways

Hydramatic

The TOP LEVEL Camaro is supposed to be a high performance vehicle.

The car was originally designed to be sporty to drive, jam-packed with options, and to look DAMN good, all while having an easy to afford pricetag.

...But, you might notice, as I've insisted that ya'll check up on your history a little bit, so I'll give you a hint....the 327/350 version of the Original Camaro outsold all other models, including the I6 economy model.

Also, I guess you forgot that almost every Corvette V8 and C-series V8 in HISTORY could swap out parts with each other.... Corvettes didn't always have aluminum blocks....I know that most of you probably knew that one, but there are still some morons on here who still try to make themselves believe the L76 isn't a direct offspring of the LS1 and is merely a truck motor. I guess that makes the V10 in the Ram SRT-10 a truck motor now right? lol.

Never mind the fact that the L76 is still a 6.0L making 364hp, just WAITING to be tuned. I bet with a good pair of LTs, intake, and a dyno tune, it could be making power levels like the LS3 for much less cash....unless you buy like $4000 dollar headers or some ****. But people around here aren't interested in modding now are they....

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

1) 4th gens "sucking at everything else" isn't entirely true. Maybe to you they were good for nothing more than 1/4 mile runs, but not all of us need to have an autoX ready suspension and brakes to find a car fun to drive. They were decent all-around performers for their day, and for those not content with their stock performance, they were easily modded to whatever your desire. And beleive it or not, some of us actually liked the styling of the 4th gens. WOW. The SHOCK! Yes, I actually said it, I think the 4th gen cars were and still are cool; to look at and to drive. Quick, somebody stone me.

2) I don't know how you guys think that any V8 Camaro is going to be $25k. You want a car with a GTO-like or better interior, suspension & brakes that keep up with the Vette (you know, a car that "doesn't suck at everything else" ), and a V8. But you want it all at the same price as a fully optioned Z28 was in 1998? GM is still a busniess that needs to make a profit.

MavrikTA

iTrader: (27)

Sorry dude, but an 2010 Camaro, at MINIMAL 3600 lbs, with a 6.0 engine, BETTER be making more than 364hp! If this car comes with anything less than 400hp, it aint worth it to trade my current 4th gen for. I just cant explain that as anything other than 'weak'.
Lookin sharp or not....

Hydramatic

I love how the 4th gens look, especially the earlier ones( I am partial to the Trans Am GT myself...) I know they handle pretty good for having a solid axle, too, but even you guys have to admit that it wasn't the best car out there.

What I don't like is that the interior is made out of Lego plastic and there's a huge ******* bump in the middle of the passenger floor, the wind noise aint s so hot, window motors liked to go out all the time, you couldn't change the spark plugs without a damn lift....the list goes on and on. NONE of that will be a problem on the new one.

A car doesn't have to have a GTO interior at $25K, and I didn't suggest that it would either. It'll have something like the Mustang GT or Ford Fusion.

I don't want a car that can keep up with the Corvette, nor did I infer that I thought it should. That is EVERYONE ELSE on this board. I'm the guy trying to vouch for an affordable, owner-centric coupe with enough options to satisfy the market, yet a pricetag that a greater audience can enjoy.


As for the car not getting at least "400hp or it's weak ****!" comment, you need to put things into perspective. This is going to cost you ~$25K what it would have taken a fully loaded SS or T/A, priced at $30K+ in '02. Yeah, 13's might seem like a snails pace to some of you but to the rest of the world, that is ridiculously fast.

Yes, I'll admit the 364 is a bit weak sounding, but it has plenty of torque, not to mention a quick tune and you are making numbers that would please you even more. I would take a car with 364 that has readily available potential(something insurance companies never pay attention to...) over one that would shaft me out of the box, just to say I have it out of the box.

Besides, like I said earlier, if you don't want 364, buy an LS3. Get the car that makes you happy, but don't think that everybody else wants or can afford that kind of car. We don't need a repeat of the 4th gen sales, rather more like the 1st-3rd.

wannabess00

iTrader: (1)

Toyota is UAW as well

mzoomora

iTrader: (36)

Prove it.

Unless things have changed in the last few months, which I doubt, Toyota is NOT UAW.

wannabess00

iTrader: (1)

I dont need to do research on this. I work in it everyday and personally comments like what you make is appart of the problem with this country. You can argue aging body effects and injury likelyness all you want but I get to hear about them in meetings and see those workers every week.

Yes these costs from benefits are absurdly expensive but unfortunately someone has to invest in all of us on here and in those factories as well. Our political leadership believes Corp.America is best suited to do that so when they screw people over with outragous costs to help the profit numbers we look at the GM factory worker and say "Damn those Unions". Yeah Union leadership isnt always perfect but with at least they are loyal to their people. Whether you like it or not GM, Ford, Chysler, and Toyota have to understand that its the average joe on the street that buys their products and when they dont have money they dont buy. When companies hire workers at low cost that creats a ripple affect to employers that also do that or keep wages flat as is what is occuring now. Toyota,believe it or not, learned this already and has acually one of te best UAW contracts out there and of coarse they are kicking the U.S. companies asses.

Like I said you thinks its right to have a guy that make 10.4 million a year tell the union worker "youre too expensive we cant keep you" then I guess keep on fighting the good fight. You can argue this creating jobs idea all you want but what it acually is its union busting and corporate greed.

wannabess00

iTrader: (1)

http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2008/index.cfm. Look for your favorite Toyota cars proudly built by overpaid union workers

mzoomora

iTrader: (36)

How is it union busting if the union agreed to it and the new jobs will also be union jobs? Explain that.

Chadder

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, that's not true.

mzoomora

iTrader: (36)

Wow!!! You mean the 2 Toyota models on the list? Including the Corolla, which is assembled at a GM plant? The same joint venture GM plant that also assembles the Tacoma? The same plant that Toyota thinks is too expensive and they want to pull out of? Toyota IS NOT UAW!! They are just involved in a joint venture with GM at a UAW plant.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/edi...ing-uaw-plant/

wannabess00

iTrader: (1)

Got any evidence to support that mindset? Any at all? Oh and Toyota not UAW??? you know just because you got proved wrong after claiming Toyota wasnt union at all dont call them non union.

wannabess00

iTrader: (1)

The Union agreed to a tier adjustment in insentives for job pay.