keiichiZ28

conversely, i've never seen a COPO Camaro with badging for the SS OR the Z28. every one i've see only had Camaro on the fenders and hood. that's it, no SS or Z/28.

Scoggin Dickey

iTrader: (34)

We went from differing opinions to making up facts about COPOs which have nothing to do with this anyways?

Hydramatic

C'Mon guys...everyone knows that some Z/28's came with a shiny present in the back that had dual quads attached to it and some toys....bumped it up to around 400hp. It was FASTER than the piggly-wiggly 396 in every category, except maybe down hills or after being dropped from a Sikorsky.

The Z/28 became even meaner in 1970 when it got a hot version of the Corvette LT1 350, which was "rated" at 360hp....yet another bold faced lie if you ever drove one and experienced it.

As for the SS350's...you have got to be kidding. A 300hp rated 350 would get raped by a 290hp-rated Z/28....and no, that's not sarcasm! The 302 horsepower ratings were one of the biggest in-jokes in the industry, right alongside those of the Mopar LA 340 6bbl. Everyone knew the 340 wasn't making what Dodge said it was making because it was running with some of the big blocks at the track...

Think of it this way....you guys remember the 2000 Cobra R Mustang? Killer car. The thing about those Cobra R's is that no matter how many regular Cobras are released, that Cobra R is still one mean-*** pure-blood racing machine, and any real Cobra owner would give their left nut to have the car. An 03/04 is also a fast machine, but people value the R's to a greater extent because it was a made-to-race vehicle, not just the top trim and engine available on a Mustang. Such is the case with the Z/28.

Now some of you are screaming, "but the 80's and 90's durrrrr." The Z/28 was the top model Camaro from ~76 to 98. That is one hell of a run, and certainly isn't eclipsed by the 4-year stint that the SS had on the fourth gens, where the Z/28 really wasn't that big of a difference anyway, bar a spoiler and a hood scoop that, as mentioned earlier, was taken from the re-introduced 2nd-gen Z/28. The ads for that Camaro Z/29 used to read "All Hail The King."

As for the "Watering down" of the SS brand...if you really think that all the cars getting SS badges today are watering down the trim level(which is all it ever was...) then you need to just go be a Ford SVT fanboy, because your logic works better with that crowd. SS was on EVERYTHING more or less, and it didn't always mean you were getting a barnstormer, either! Hell the original SS was a 6-banger Impala with some springs and bucket seats...If anything, the new cars today are doing more justice to the trim than some of their predecessors. SS means the nicest trim available on a Chevrolet vehicle, usually with SOME emphasis on sportiness. Can you think of a single SS that wasn't "sportier" than it's next lowest trim level? I thought not.

Anyway, I thought I'd set some stuff straight....

Vicinity

iTrader: (7)

Good read.

SSNISTR

iTrader: (10)

Your wrong. I have had a few 1st gens in my family. While the 302 Z's were underated they were low 14 second cars at best stock. A good race with a 325 396, but a 350 396 would beat it, and a 375 396 would kill it. It all comes down to what you want. A Z was better on a road course, but a big block SS is quicker in a straight line for sure.

Also I find it funny how many on here are probably under 30 and acting like they really know about the late 60's Camaros. And what was quicker and "better".

Wild Willy

The closest thing in the 4th gen world to the Z28 was the 1LE option package, a for-real road racing package, no A/C, no radio, no power windows- stiffer springs, stiffer bushings, bigger shocks, etc. Too bad there wasn't a special engine to complete the package- the original 302 was a purpose-built engine to compete in the Trans-Am racing series, where it did very well- basically a 327 block with a 283 crank, with the shorter stroke they could really wind up-

from wikipedia:
The Trans-Am Series was created in 1966 by the SCCA as the Trans-American Sedan Championship. Originally derived from the SCCA's A Sedan (A/S) class, it later featured purpose-built tube-frame race cars competing on road courses. The series was known for competition of muscle cars like the Ford Mustang, Chevy Camaro, Plymouth Barracuda, AMC Javelin and Dodge Challenger in the late 1960s and early 1970s, though marques from many different countries have competed in the series.

The Beginnings (1966 - 1981)
At first, the Trans-Am vehicles were primarily modified versions of the road-going car. The competition was divided into two classes- an "Under 2 Liter" class (predominantly small European sedans) and the "Over 2 Liter" class (displacement limited to 5.0 liters, or 305 cu. in. ).

The Golden Era (1968-1972)
The early years were largely dominated by Mark Donohue, driving for Roger Penske. Penske campaigned Chevy Camaros through 1969, when he signed with American Motors to race the Javelin in 1970 and 1971. Donohue would chalk up 20 race victories between 1967 and 1970 and three unofficial drivers's championships, the third achieved in 1971. The 1970 Trans Am series is regarded by most racing historians as the high water mark of American road racing. Every "pony car" manufacturer was represented with a factory team and top driving talent: Chevrolet had the Chaparral Chevy Camaro Z28 team with Jim Hall, Ed Leslie, and Vic Elford. Ford's Bud Moore Boss 302 Mustangs were driven by Parnelli Jones and George Follmer. For Plymouth, the All American Racing Cudas were handled by Dan Gurney and Swede Savage. Sam Posey drove Ray Caldwell's Autodynamics Challenger TA, Jerry Titus had the Pontiac TransAm, and Roger Penske's Sunoco AMC Javelin team starred Mark Donohue and Peter Revson.

Most of these cars have been preserved or restored and are still racing in vintage events today.

THIS IS WHERE THE Z28 OPTION CAME FROM, FACTORY SUPPORTED RACING
It wasn't originally supposed to be sold to the public, but, like the COPO cars, some dealers found a way to sell true enthusiast's cars and build the legend that the Camaro still enjoys today-

LT1-DAN

I agree 100%. Back in the late 60's it was all about street racing/bragging rights, and the simple fact is a SS big block car and even a Hemi would rape a 302 Z28 on the street. Seems like these young kids today never have been exposed to the wrath of a big block's torque!!

Iron Head

iTrader: (11)

I'm going to order a Z28 with the SS option!

Hydramatic

Right....

What's cooler to you, a Cobra R or a Terminator? Your answer to that question will tell us all where your true preferences lie. Some of us like pure muscular pony cars, and some of us(read:me) prefer the likes of full-blood race cars like the old Z/28.

An SS big block car would get it's *** raped by a Yunick Z/28 for your information....the 396's torque does not make up for the almost 100hp and weight gap in between the two cars...not that it matters...You'd never see a Yunick-built Z/28 out on the street. The point is, however, that the Z/28's were the hardest of the hardcore non-COPO Camaros, and would absolutely beat up on a fatty SS any day of the week.

Did I mention that they came optional with dual quads, long-tube headers, and even a ducted cold-air cowl intake?



Pretty sweet right? You know what else was sweet? All the big block equipment strapped to the little small block 302 to make it more or less bullet-proof under duress. If you really like going fast, at any cost, the Z/28 is the car to do it in, not the SS.

When you get down to it, though, it's all personal preference....the comfy, classy SS, or the brutal, screamer Z/28...you can't really go wrong with either!

As for the 426 Hemi...it is a god among engines....more people had the 440-6bbl though, and it was nearly as fast up to a certain speed, at which point the Hemi left it...I still stand by my comment on the 340's...they put a lot of 383's and 390's into the grave!

LT1-DAN

hahahahaha a 20 year old is telling the story of life, now that is some funny ****!! I have been racing cars for almost as long as you have been alive You make no sence at all. I don't like fords, so to answer your question(a stupid one at that) neither one does anything for me!! I drag race, that is what true muscle cars do As i said before the 302 Z28 was built to be a high- rpm, fast- revving road racer. Yes, it was a race car.... a road race car, not a car to beat big block's it did not have the ***** on the street or the strip to beat big block cars.

On the STREET in the 60's is where you put up or shut up, not road racing. Also I don't know who told you that SS cars were comfy and classy and who told you that big block parts will fit on a 302 but my advice would be to stay away from that person Go out and get yourself a bigblock car and maybe when you live life a little more you will see how very wrong you are.

Hydramatic

No, it is you who doesn't make any sense. That is spelled with two "s"'s.

The Cobra question was merely a hypothetical question that anyone with a high-school degree(which you seem to be lacking btw...) could have answered objectively.

As for the big-block parts, you're a god damn idiot and need to do a little research before you assume that you know what the **** you're talking about. The Z/28 was fitted with the same transmission as the 396 with a different bolt pattern, it got all the heavy-duty SS brakes and such made for the heavier, big-block car.

And yes, the SS was a much more comfortable car than the stiff-springed Z/28.

As for the "big blox is da godzerrrrss" comment, you need to stop being a redneck. Yes, big blocks are killer engines, but a high-strung small block isn't exactly chump change at the strip. The Z/28 made it's torque higher in the band, making it an easier launching car compared to your beloved big-blocks.

Seriously though, I don't want a big block. They weigh too damn much and parts aren't cheap like the sbc. Besides I've run into many a shitty BBC...the 90's Silverado 454SS comes to mind, which would get its *** stomped by my little baby 294ci LR4.

Anyway, I don't have all day to sit here and argue with a grown man who can't figure out how to be a well-adjusted individual. Good day, sir.

jmill96Z

iTrader: (3)

I just called my old man about this thread. He was a mech at Chevy during these years. I asked him about the SS vs. Z28, and he just laughed. Not even a contest, the optioned out Z28 would win in a drag race. It seems you could order them with 4.56's, in addition to the dual quads. They used to routinely take a showroom optioned out (with dealer installed longtubes) Z and click off 12.90's.

Camaro Fan

iTrader: (1)

Part of the problem here is the SS could be optioned w/ alot of stuff. The SS350 was pretty much a dog, and low po 396 in the SS was not really all that hot either. But the 375 hp L-78 396 (425hp in the Vette the year before) was a beast and would stomp a mudhole in the Z/28 in a straight line. END OF STORY. That 375hp 396 was a rectangular port headed, solid cam monster that shared very very little w/ the lo-po 396s.

I'm sure in full race trim w/ the tricks and tweaks the 302 could make some power, but you do the same kinda stuff to a hot BB and it is no comparison. This wasn't magic, the 302 had a big solid lifter cam (making it so you absolutely had to rev it to get any power at all), but pretty weak in comparison SBC heads, and was wayyyyy down on cubes.

As for the road racing stuff, this was the heyday of muscle cars and the stop light drags, to imply the Z/28 was a king of the road or the top dawg Camaro is bullshit.


I was reading on a classics board, two different stock-ish 302 Z/28s dyno'd around 230-240 rwhp on dynojets a couple years ago w/ torque somewhere in the mid 200s too. Pretty good back in the late 60s, and underrated somewhat from their 290 gross hp rating, but no 400hp... That would beat alot of bigger cube motors, some put out pretty sad numbers (saw numbers from a stock 389 GTO not too long ago, like 200 rwhp even but w/ quite a bit of torque). But old Hemis and such have hit 330-350 rwhp on dynojets stock, I would think the L-78 would dyno up in the 300+ rwhp range too pretty easily...


What on the Z/28 other than the 302 could you not also option on a SS? You could at least get front disc brakes on the SS, had several gear options to choose from, and a similar suspension option (pretty sure you could get the exact same F41 suspension option)... So in the end you could get most/all of the Z/28 goodies in the SS, plus significantly more power. About all you were stuck with was the extra weight over the nose from the BB...

Hydramatic

Not quite. In full race trim, the Z/28 regularly made around 450 hp. Like I said before....all the torque in the 396 wouldn't help make up for the weight gain and 75+hp deficit.

Therein lies the problem with you guy's comparisons...you are trying to compare a regular SS model with a race car Z/28. I'm not saying the SS's weren't badass, because we all know they were, just that the Z's were ax-murderer's at ANY track, not just the strip.

Also, I never said the Z/28 was the King of the Road...that title belongs to the COPO cars. All we are saying here is that the SS is a punk compared to the Z.

Camaro Fan

iTrader: (1)

Why don't we break this down, so your contention is that in "full race trim" the 302 could be hotter than a non-rules limited, full race trim BB 396?

You're dreaming if so IMO.

As I said to start with I'm sure you could make a mean 302, but you can make a meaner 396 all else being equal. I would contend you could make the 396 wayyyy meaner...

Camaro Fan

iTrader: (1)

If anyone knows of any recent chassis dyno numbers of a stock-ish L-78 396 in any car please post it up. Everyone quotes all these numbers for both engines but there are too many variables in the engine dynos posted around. Actually if anyone has any chassis dyno numbers from any near-stock old muscle cars post em up, I'm always curious about the real rwhp numbers for them...

Here are two quotes from different guys w/ 69 Z28s:

z28ss4me

iTrader: (2)

Here's the deal I don't care which is which, I'm buying the one with 500+ HP when it comes out. You know, the top dog. Just so happens my SS was the top dog in 99. Not much else matters really.

holley505

iTrader: (1)

WOW! this is a serious thread.

I kinda see the Z/28 vs SS combo and a OLD SCHOOL vs NEW school Debate... your age and lifestyle will give you different opinions. Not the mention all these cars had Sooooo many options in the 1 Gen model years you could have up to a second in ET difference based on options with gears trannies weight of vehicle etc. (gear ratios varied from 3.08 to 4.56 with 10 bolts and 12 bolts and transmission types m21 m22 glides Th350 th400... you could have stripper car with no power NOTHING... vs a full loaded show stopper for the ladies)

I think we should all agree to disagree... we are talking FOOTBALL vs BASEBALL...to different sports all together. However LIKE DEION SANDERS... some cars could play the road race and the drag race... but usually was better at one more so than the other (football). (ie Z28 for the road race)

With today modern cars... no need to compromise. Modern cars can turn, brake, stop and go fast all at once...

Unless your on the track (drag or road race) it would be hard to tell the difference by the seat of your pants...

looking a basic 08 corvette vs 08 Z51 corvette on the track. Back 30 years ago... that would be more apparent than today...suspension and tires and technology far surpass the brute force of yesterday. (laser guided smart bomb vs napalm). Be we all repect and understand... that although brutal and prime evil... very effective.

Now the HIGH END hp cars would be a different story... you would feel that in your pants. 06-08 Z06 ... GT40... dodge viper srt8... these a purpose built race cars with streetable features... although some better than others... Z06. But most people would not drive these cars day in and day out, like we usually do with or PONY/MUSCLE Cars.

Going forward... we can figh t and bitch about... But the General will have the Finally say ... I would guess that they would put the SS at the Top of the HP list for the Camaro.

That is the current trend if you look at the Chevy Line up. Highest HP and Best performance model is the SS. However it would be cool... to have a TRUE Z28 option... but like somebody said that would be the 1LE camaro. That is the true modern version of the 1st GEN Z28.

Z28 name was basically changed to the camaro with a V8 in the 90's

SSNISTR

iTrader: (10)

Well maybe he was a mechanic, but he doesn't know to much about 60's street racing with that comment.

A 375 396 can get the same gears as an option and would kill a similar 302 Z28. Sorry, just how it was.

Iron Head

iTrader: (11)

This thread remindes me of my dog when he chases his tail!!!!