Mystic 98 TA

iTrader: (4)

-Then I'd say its a good thing that GM didnt build the V6 Camaro for 99% of the people on this site. They need to build it (V6) for the general public, not the performance crowd. They gave the 99% of the people on this site an LS3 V8, which is very mod-friendly from what I understand, as well as an IRS and two 6-speed transmissions.

-The same masses who buy 210hp V6 mustangs, because they are willing and ABLE to pay a little more at the pump to have a certain car with a certain look and not blend in with all the other Civics and Mazda 3's and Corollas out there.

Maybe only 2mpg, but how many people will be able to afford the TRUE price difference? We're looking at a $5k-7k difference here, maybe more. Can YOU afford that up front, or suck up a higher monthly payment? PLUS insurance for a 420hp sports-car vs a 300hp V6, and THEN pay for 91 octane vs 87 octane every single tank? Not everyone can. Simple economics dude.



Well I can't argue with personal opinions. I guess my faith in GM has come not from the 1990's and early 2000's, but from the last two years or so. Look at all the products it's been putting into the market. GM wants it's dominance back, and it knows what it needs to do to get there. You can see that not by what I think, but by their products. The new cobalt SS, the HHR, the G8, the G6, the new CTS, the C6/Z06/ZR1, the Saturn Aura, the Malibu. All these are very competive in their respective classes. GM is changing its ways, I see good things to come.

If you dont, well, I think that's a shame, but I can't help you if you live in a bubble of unchecked pragmatism.

'99bluez

iTrader: (6)

X2 on that!! I am so dissappointed that the rims go from 18" up to 20" - Makes me sick. They probably could have saved a decent amount of weight off that porker by having 16" and 17" like the 4th gen.

checkbit

iTrader: (11)

the 4th gen v6 camaros/firebirds can hold their own against a mustang gt of the same era...

wES6

A 02 GT vs a 02 4th gen V6??? Surely you must be kidding!

Fabian

iTrader: (5)

Thats not very far fetched. Ive seen it numerous times around my parts. Especially the SN95 years.

cabech984

iTrader: (11)

We were spoiled with the LS1 werent we? I think this camaro will be hitting 13's with good drivers, no problem. No, I wouldnt buy the v6 but 90 percent of the people who would have never heard of an LS1 or LS7, all they see is gas saving v6 or gas sipping v8.

GM as well as us "enthusiasts" needs the V6 to keep the Camaro alive! We should stop ragging on it and just be fortunate that the Camaro is even being made again! Some fail to realize that the Camaro has had a 6 cylinder since 1967, and the mustang has had one since day one too. Its gonna live up to the heritage, fast, fun and getting outsold by the mustangs lol! I cant wait!

ChocoTaco369

The "general public" aren't going to buy this car in a V6. The V6 won't sell, mark my words. The "general public" will opt for a fuel efficient car. The die hards will be the ones buying the Camaro, and they'll get the V8 to begin with. This isn't the days of $1.13/gal gas where everyone owned a car that got 20mpg and didn't care. Simple economics, dude The V6 won't sell.

I see many more GT's on the road than V6 Mustangs. The reason for that is surely the people that are buying the Mustang are Mustang fans, which will buy the V8 model to begin with. It's pointless to buy a V6 Mustang. Gas prices don't make it a viable option.



On a $32,000 car, the extra $3,000 for the V8 won't kill you. If you can afford to drive this fat beast of a car with these gas prices and with a V8, it won't matter if you get a V6. This is a different time.

And GM isn't going to regain its dominance by putting out a V8 performance car with $4/gal gasoline the norm and ridiculously late in the game, all in a disgustingly fat, heavy car. This car is a floating boat. If I wanted to buy a Skylark I wouldn't have waited for the new Camaro.

Pragmatism = reality. Sorry if I'm being too real for you

enginjoe

iTrader: (11)

They sell way more v6's than v8's. That's the way it's always been. If the v6's don't sell, it's over.

Mystic 98 TA

iTrader: (4)

Who in their right minds will price the V6 Camaro at $32,000? We're discussing the V6 here. Lutz and others have said that the Camaro will be targeting the Mustang and WILL BE COMPETETIVELY PRICED with the Mustang. There are things called Stickies at the beginning of each Forum. Read them. You of all people should know about them, seeing as you're Seafoam Sticky is very popular.

And seriously, Chaco, $32,000 for a V6? What oraphus did you pull that price out of?! If that's your idea of pragmatism, I'd recommend some professional help.

chpmnsws6

iTrader: (70)

Most of us wont. 3 years ago when they announced it I would of, but they are now behind..... BIGTIME and most of us have moved on. They should have released it a week after Transformers came out. That car screamed sex and I would have bought one in a heartbeat after watching that movie.... Now not so much......

bww3588

iTrader: (49)

normally i agree with you, but i strongly disagree this time.

stop with your so called reality checks, becasue as of now, the Camaro is not a reality. only a magazine article and peep show for the lucky people who happen to catch a glance of one or so on a transport.

you cant see into the future and neither can anyone else, so lets use the past as an example. IMO, the V6 will sell, and i base my opinion on the past where as you base yours on who happens to feel froggy enough to take the GT to work rather than the minivan. since gas prices have become a concern in the 70's, the V6 or base models have ALWAYS outsold the V8 models. the diehards left over from the muscle car era still refusing to give up their passion, but cant muster the extra $$$ for a healthy V8 and its fuel bill, will buy the V6 Camaro. teenagers with rich mommy and daddys will buy the V6 Camaro because "the V8 will get you in trouble and/or killed son", the blind to performance only sees looks yuppie will buy the V6 Camaro. these are the same people who buy V6 mustangs that have outsold the GT since the mid 90's.

do yourself a favor and chill. see what happens with it before you go and start bashing it. you haven't seen numbers of power, or price. for all you (or anyone else) know, GM could have a powertrain upgrade for the '10 vette allowing them to up the power of the Camaro. hell GM could go belly up tomorrow, but no body knows. so stop confirming things before GM can.

wES6

Hey Choco, stop hurting their feelings! I actually agree with alot of your opinions but thats just me. Think about all the camaro guys who went left & got one of those newer mustangs. Its going to be hard for GM to get them back. Especially if the mustang gt's get the 400 hp 5.0, how can you expect them to comeback? I feel chevy has no chance unless the the mustang retains the same power plants. Also, the challengers are on the lots now, this isnt helping the camaros rebirth either. Just sayin.

rayhawk

I think most people make their choice on the look and overall feel of a car, not on curb weight or drivetrain. The camaro is new and fresh and in my opinion a unique looking car. Some die hard performance guys will buy a mustang if it turns out lighter and faster in a straight line than a camaro, so what?? I say go ahead. Did people stop buying sharp looking mustangs in the 90's when they were ridiculously slow? No, they bought what they liked the looks of, and the vast majority bought the V6 because it was a nice overall car for low $20k range.

If the camaro gets peoples attention and is affordable, it will outsell the V6 mustang, and that is where the real challenge is. If the 4th gen V6 camaros had sold better we would have never lost the car in the first place. GM will keep putting money into the platform down the road if they keep it fresh looking and make it fun to drive.

In the end, don't be surprised to see this so called 400hp 5.0 mustang be an underperformer and probably still not as fast as the new camaro even if it ends up 200 lbs lighter. But that is the fun part, to watch and see what happens.

wES6

I dont understand their strategy. Why not offer a weak but cheap v6, decent priced v8, & a special version like the other 2 competitors? I find it odd they way they are going about this. It seems they are targeting the same audience with a HO v6 & v8. Most of those non enthusiasts out there only care about looks & price. The challenger & mustang cost 22k, & it looks like the camaro will be the most expensive. Someone help me understand.

Mystic 98 TA

iTrader: (4)

I see where you and Chaco have concerns. But the main thing that gets my water boiling is the doom and dismay and confusion you guys keep posting about when you dont have all the pieces to the puzzle.

To help you understand: you're saying "it LOOKS like the Camaro will be the most expensive." What if, in fact, it's the cheapest? Maybe GM is taking a page from the Japanese and Euro auto makers and giving good quality along with competitive prices? A TRULY competitive all-around value? We shouldnt make doomsday predictions (or I guess, predictions of GM Salvation) until we see ALL THE PIECES of the puzzle.

It might seem like a long-shot based on GM's past performance, but I think GM has seen the light and is slowly turning things around.

wES6

Can we agree the RT & the GT are the main targets? The RT is 30k & the GT is 27k. I suspect the GT will get a slight HP bump & not the 400hp like we have been hearing, so the price still wont break 30k. Do you expect the new SS to be cheaper than the 05-05 400 hp GTO's (32k)? The answer is no & it wont be the be the cheapest. Therefore, the new camaro will be the most expensive in comparison. That is not good considering they are coming back & reinventing the camaro name. Gm can only hope ford throws a 400hp engine in the GT, since it will drive the price up with them. Ford doesnt need to do this since they are good right where they're at. They have a product that sells 7 they know how to market it, obviously. Please dont comeback with the whole 300 hp v6 arguement because I dont care. This is mainly a v8 site & I would think most of you are concerned about the SS & not the LT/LS. If you are considering buying a v6 camaro & ricing it out, you are better off getting a cobalt ss tc because its already faster. We already have fitty cent & fergie as a marketing tool, who else do you think they will use lol.

Mystic 98 TA

iTrader: (4)

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. The GT and the RT are in GM's cross-hairs. Which is fine by me. Also, I'm more concerned about the price of the SS than either of the V6s. I was under the assumption that this particular thread was gravitating more toward V6 talk than V8 talk, since that's kinda what I've been arguing about

I'm not entirely convinced that the Camaro will be more expensive still. I'll put aside my "hopes and dreams" of the last few threads, or the whole "GM needs to do this, so they will" agrument. What are the differences between the Camaro and the LS2 GTO?

1) GM is geared for LS3 production, since the LS2 is phased out. So more HP doesnt mean more $$ passed to the consumer. LS3 Vettes dont go for more than LS2 Vettes did brand new.

2) the GTO was being produced in Australia, and shipped over here. That costs more $$$. The Camaro will be produced on this continent, which will help keep costs down. On that note, IF the Camaro were being produced Down under, it might cost more since the USD isnt as strong as the Aussie Dollar. Another reason for the higher MSRP was the relatively low volume they were sent over here in.

3) You've probably seen this argument, but look at the G8 GT. It's a nice example of both arguments 1 & 2, and it shares the same basic architecture with the Camaro. MSRP for those is $30k, and it's being imported from Australia. If you can import a G8, fully optioned for about $35k, I dont see how GM will not be able to produce and sell the Camaro for less, since it'll be done domestically (well, Canada, but you get it).

4) V6 model. Not the "300hp V6!!!!111omg!!" debate, but the fact that they offer a V6. They'll be throwing in more V6's than V8s into this Camaro, which will also keep our V8 costs down. The more units Chevy produces (whether V6 or V8) the cheaper it comes. That's one of the reason that the Mustang does well, the V6. HP numbers aside, people will still see it as a V6 and it will appeal to them for the same reasons that a V6 Mustang appeals. I'm not saying I'm going to BUY a V6, but it needs to be a hit if we're going to see a cheap V8.

-But then again, who knows. I could be wrong. Maybe there are production factors that I dont know about which makes it cheaper to build Down Under and ship a car thousands of miles across the pacific. Unions, maybe? Time will tell.

Hydramatic

I do agree with you about the transformers thing...however, the next movie is shooting as we speak and will be ready to go for the launch.

I don't think they are TERRIBLY behind, but they sure haven't "rushed" it either. I think they were taken off-guard by the positive response to the concept car, and really didn't have anything hammered out for a production car....thus the long ramp-up time.

'99bluez

iTrader: (6)

From a quick check: '96, '97, & '98 the GT had 215 hp & 285tq and the same year 4th gen f-body V6 had 200hp & 235tq

Those mustangs run real high 14s/ low 15s and the 4th gen V6 are good for mid 15s maybe better with the 5spd, so not far off.

wES6

07 base ls2 vette - 42500
08 base ls3 vette - 46000

Actually, the vette jumped significantly with the intro of the ls3. If a ls2 GTO was set for 32k, you can expect the SS to be somewhere in the mid 30's. As for the G8 GT, the SS is more comparable to the GXP version, due to its power. I guess we will just have to wait & see. If I can get a ls3 SS for 32k, then its a done deal! Anymore than that, then id rather have a used C6 ls2.

If you compare the 01+ models, the comparison is very far off!