I know that our interiors are not great, but what would you actually consider good? Have most of you guys even been in newer(not new new) BMW's/Mercs(that seems to be the standard)? I don't see how it's any better than F-body interior. The seats suck, it's like nailing two boards together and stapling a piece of leather on it. I don't understand what people see in those cars. A 95 BMW has practically the same interior as an 07 BMW.. Give me a bench sofa out of a 65 Cadillac over a rock hard bmw seat any day.

The only interior I have ever been impressed with was an 09 Silverado and 09 Dodge Ram..

 

Yeah, dude those interiors on the silverados are pretty nice.

 

You are at the wrong website if you want to find people singing praise for imports. This is a GM based site, more specifically LSx based. This is a place where you should expect to see people defending these cars based on their love for them. This should not come as a surprise. If I felt this way about another manufacturer, I would join another site specifically for that brand, and probably be on their staff as well. I don't go to those sites and tell their members how much more I like GM though, because that is their home and I have no interest in being there. Likewise, I'm sure they have no interest in hearing my feelings towards their cars, or my feelings towards GM. So here I stay, on the domestic side of things.

As for my agenda in these posts, it is merely the product of my positive experiance and joy in owning these cars. Quite simply, I buy what I like and I like what I buy. I've said it before and I'll say it again; I will never understand why people own these cars if they actually beleive that something better can be had for the money.

I too have had my fair share of experiance with a wide range of vehicles, albeit mostly from GM. I've owned 17 cars and been in this hobby for 15 years. I don't find much fault with any of the GM cars I've owned, which is why I continue to buy them (other than the Olds LV2 307ci motor being more useful as a boat anchor than an engine, what with 4-cyl performance and 8-cyl MPG and all). I have owned Toyota and Dodge as well, my personal experiance is that Toyota is far overrated. They fall victim to the same level/cost/seriousness of issues as GM or any other OE manufacturer.

You state that I "marginalize faults and problems", I challenge you to please explain what I have marginalized that is in fact a serious fault or problem for a car in this price range and class. Or, perhaps our disconnect is in our respective definitions of "serious".

I do not maintain that GM is *perfect*. No company is. But I see no reason to belittle GM for what are truly minor problems with the F-body. Most of the complaints in this thread are due to the following:

- Unrealistic expectations for the price range of the vehicle/altogether wrong vehicle for expectations.
- Old car/used car problems based on prior owner neglect.
- Vehicle being used outside of desiged parameters.
- 1993-1998 technology/quality/design being compared to modern technology/quality/design.

I too have owned both brand new and used F-bodies, ranging in mileage from 3 miles to 120k. The newest of these cars is now 8 years old, and some were poorly cared for by prior owners. My '02 Z28 now has 96k miles, and it is free from ever having any serious issue. I chalk this up to a combination of strong build quality and the fact that I do not neglect maintenance.

I think myk makes a good point, that part of the issue here is people trying to directly compare cars from different eras. It's apples to oranges at this point, since the 4th gens are getting so old now. By current new car standards, a car like my Nova must be a complete piece of garbage, it doesn't even have a cup holder.

And speaking of the Nova.....

Thanks.

You can actually fit a pretty big tire out back (as big as 275/60/15, on a 15x7 and sometimes on a 15x8) if wheel backspacing is perfectly optimized for the car. Some guys do need to move the shock mount further inboard and/or roll/grind the wheel well lip for proper clearance. Currently I have 14x7 wheels with a 245/60 out back and I have no clearance issues at all. That's with multi-leaf rear springs and traction bars, ride height is close to stock.

 

And the 350Z comment.. You guys know 40-50k on those cars they consider high mileage? The main reason is because the transmissions fail as much as our window motors do. I don't know about you, but I would rather replace a 50$ window motor than a transmission.... But I guess it has a nice plastic interior!

I challenge (not even from the same time era) to find a car that is a better bang for the buck than an ls1 for the money and in the same class.... You will be looking for a while, if you find it... I will buy it!

 

^ speaks the truth.



A G6 coupe? Ive driven a G6, I don't see any relation at all to any Fbody made.

 

Sounds like you haven't been in a BMW/Merc then...
This is a pretty basic 3 series...


Heres the interior from a '95 M3, and a 2008 M3. I hope to god you can see the difference...



Bench seats are great if all you care about is sitting in the car and not actually driving it.
What people see in BMWs is a high quality machine created for a great driving experience. You would understand if you ever got to drive an ///M car. No, it not some lame strait line-only cruiser, its a luxury car that is track (real race track, like a road course) capable, and balanced beautifully.

Well that explains a lot then...

 

I have driven an M3, wasn't all that great, it was fun but wasn't what people made it out to be. I guess I have never been able to get past the rock hard seats not to mention the body kit dragging around corners. Now that I think about it, it's probably not the best car to base my opinions off of. It was an 03 style.

Idk, they just all seemed the same. I would hop from a 97 BMW to an 04 and it would just feel like I was in the same car. Maybe it was because they all smelled like crayons inside.

 

I think different people just look for different things out of an interior, just like different expectations out of a car in general.

4th gen interior is a 13 year old design, I wouldn't directly compare it to any modern car, simply because styles and materials change over time. Even the most expensive euro cars from the '90s have lame looking interiors compared to their modern counterparts, if you're the type that likes lots of electronics and flashy-blinky stuff.

Honestly, I don't think that modern "basic 3-series" interior posted above looks any better than the inside of a latest gen Malibu.

 

I'm a person that looks at the "layout".. The dash, shifter, gauges, etc... I think the Trans Am has it nailed.. Camaro lacks IMO.. I don't like the interior on most "nice" or higher priced cars.

 

I respect your opinion, which i do agree upon. Just curious... have you ever owned a true luxury vehicle? if not, I based my opinion on that. Ive owned Jags,Lexus,Mercedes,BMWs. even the 10 year old ones.. they are pretty well built. (yes, its a different class vehicle)

Dont get me wrong.. like i said before.. i love my camaro for what it is.. pure bread muscle car. But if we were to discuss "build quality". Its NOT the best, yet its not the worst either. The way panels are put together... i can literally rip them right off the gaps between one panel to another.. Cup holder, isnt so much a cup colder. the Seats arnt that confortable either. Dispite my complains..my Love for the camaros out weighs the cons so thats why i own a camaro. Im saying all this only because I didnt own my car back when it was built, 2000. Im sure back in 2000 these cars were A+ quality all the way around!

 

Your right but I don't like the seat controls in the Trans Am, I can't seem to get comfortable. I miss my V6 Camaro ..

I really need to sit in it for 10 minutes to get it right..

 

Ahhhh.. Its something to get me front point A to point B...... Quick.

 

I disagree. After spending many, many years owning both Camaros and Trans Am of the same year, I can say that their interiors are ergonomically identical in layout. If you're referring to the aesthetics, then that's purely opinion so I understand. Just so happens I favor Camaro, but I'd take either.

I've never owned a vehicle on your list. I never will, they just don't appeal to me.

This is the easiest way I can sum up my arguement:

When you buy an LS1 F-body, you're getting a car that will run, on average, just as long as any asian or euro luxury car you can name (given the same care). You are paying less for the F-body because it does not contain luxury level options, design, or materials; though it still offers power and longevity that meets or exceedes nearly every luxury (or even other sport/performance) cars offered new in the same era. You sure as hell better be getting (by comparasion) gold lined interiors with perfect, silent cabins and better fit & finish when you're paying as much (or more) for a car that doesn't perform as well. Other than Corvette, you'd have to move to the extreme high end of stock cars in that era to overpower a V8 F-body, and you'd pay for it.

So can anyone honestly say that an MB, or BMW, or Lexus does a better job of being a luxury car than an F-body does at being a muscle car? Or vice-versa? This is why you can't compare apples to oranges. And this is why I don't feel that the car is lacking in "quality". Priority was given to affordability and performance. Those targets were acheived. The car isn't lacking in the absence of luxury level materials and options, these things were purposely omitted to keep cost (and weight, being an added bonus) to a minimum. Nobody that prioritizes luxury should ever be looking to buy an F-body in the first place, its simply the wrong category of car. I think the car could be considered poor quality if it failed to do it's intended purpose well, or was a mechanical train wreck making it unreliable transportation....neither of which is true. Guess that's why I have a hard time with the "quality" comments.

Personally, the F-body is a better car for *me* than any luxury car listed in this thread simply because its mission lies directly in line with my priorities. I know that I'm not alone in that feeling. I like high level power at affordable prices and I like the simplicity of basic options and design over the complications of excessive electronics and gagets. I don't haul a lot of stuff, nor many passengers. I like V8/RWD platforms, and I like the aggressive exterior and cockpit-like interior design of the F-bodies. I bought 2 of my 5 F-bodies brand new, one was $25k and the other $30k. That money could have gone towards cars that offered more luxury and less performance, but I'd rather my dollars go towards horsepower than leather and Navi. An F-body is not the perfect car for everyone, but it is for some of us.

 

My 3 verts are very close in mileage per year ('01 T/A 18k, '02 BMW 27k, '95 Porsche 46k) and 'show car' quality. See or click pic or photo below. If I had to sell 2 for whatever reason, guess which one I would keep and which one I told my wife to keep if I die?? Yes, hard to believe by many, but it is the Trans Am! Why? First off, reliability. I have never had an F-body fail to start since I bought my first new Formula in 1996. Second is repairs and maintenance as they are not horribly expensive and numerous mechanics can work on them. Oil changes can still be had for under $30 for dino oil. Third, the looks are equal to anything on the road. Yes, it is subjective but my opinion counts as much as anyone. Fourth, the convertible top has a glass window. Wow, what a concept! No clouding, cracking or obscured views. Fifth, the interior in our base T/A is quite comfortable and I have no problem with it even though my wife likes the heated seats in the other two. Oh well. Now the intangible part which is driving pleasure or excitement. I have to grade the 911 first as the high RPMs just send chills up your spine. However, the T/A still brings a smile to my face every time I hear that LS1 crank up. An American V8, I just can't be without one. OK, that's me anyway. It's been a great topic to read and not too much trash talk which keeps it pleasant.
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ya were discussing 8-12 year old cars that are still very desirable, affordable, dependable, and fast as hell whats not to like. got my car when i was 17 name me another car thats dependable and delivers that performance level that i could have afforded. you cant they dont exist. (i guess a rustang would be the closest). rpm ws6 hit the nail on the head. i damn sure didnt buy my car for its interior although i still love the interior i think its very comfortable and i dont like a lot of extras. it does feel like your in a cockpit to and i like that my friend a stang owner got in my car and thats the first thing he said felt like he was driving a jet. some of the best cars ever made.

 

Great post........

 

Well said.

 

Well hell! I don't know then!

All I know is I like the Trans Am interior more than the Camaro. I have owned two different camaros (lt1 and ls1) and I will say I loved them both.

As for which I like better... I love Trans Ams. Although, 35th SS was the first fbody I fell in love with, I didn't even know of Trans Ams at the time. I saw a NBM 02 Ws6 and fell in love all over again! Ever since then I have loved Trans Ams and had to have one. But! Everytime I see a clean Z/SS I have a "soft spot" in my heart that needs one. I will own a Trans Am and a Camaro! I had bought one before when gas shot up to DD. 98 Z M6.. I didn't like the 6 speed so I sold it and just kept driving the TA!

Sorry so long!

 

I dont think they are any crappier than the next car. My honda is just as loud and obnoxious as my TA. I think its an old car thing, not a "GM" thing.

 

I have to agree with you man, number 7 and 8 are a cake walk with my headers. With the stock manifolds it was a bit more of a pita but not too bad. Bottom line you want luxury get a caddy or a benz not a Muscle car.