Z28_LT1

iTrader: (2)

...and failed in my opinion. I agree with you. All I need is a v8 with a six speed and rear traction. Everything else just falls into place...

BOBthe4dH8r

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE= A Camaro purist would sooner appreciate a car without these things, in trade for lesser weight and thus better performance/acceleration. [/QUOTE]

hmm...well i guess ''camaro purist'' was a bad choice of words. i was just tryin to pinpoint those brand specific die hards who pre order cars a year in advanced no matter the quality or price.

i definitely agree that GM tried to aim the 5th gen at a wider group of consumers. and yes, they may have leaned a little more towards the conservative side with all the fancy bells and whistles for sales purposes, BUT its still a great car (except the price) and i just think its gettin bashed on way too hard.

Element

iTrader: (5)

Honestly, the only thing I think targets the 5th gen at Camaro enthusiasts is the name. Get rid of the Camaro plate and some of the generic styling cues (the 2011 Mustang is the best-looking out of the three cars, and it's hardly what one would call retro; the Camaro looks more like what someone from 1975 imagined cars would look like in 2010), and it's really just a GTO replacement on a different chassis.

The new Camaro is average, and I think that's why it's getting hammered so bad. Stock, it runs roughly the same times as a 4th gen (least, the times I've seen), it's not particularly unique looking like the 4th gen Firebirds were, the driving experience is more of what one would expect from a mid-level BMW rather than a sporty performance car...there's just really nothing to differentiate it, aside from the powerplant, from the majority of "sporty but amenable to daily driving" accountant coupes and sedans out there. GM hit their goal with it, I think - making a broadly popular car - but that inherently means the pony car purists aren't going to be really enthusiastic about it, because it's not really a pony car any more.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I am a GM loyalist and what most would call a "Camaro/muscle car purist". I like the new Camaro, but not as much as the 4th gen when it was new. I see the 5th gen as a more mainstream car for mainstream/everyday buyers. This is good for GM as it's exactly what they wanted and needed to make this car work. I think it's a better attempt at hitting a middle ground than the overly bland GTO was.

I like the new Camaro enough to see a time where I would have one in the family (the wife loves them, it'll probably be her next car). But, I don't see myself buying one brand new the way I did with the 4th gens. The 5th gen just doesn't excite me as much/enough to drop MSRP-type of cash. For this car, used will be good enough.

I don't want to come off as a 5th gen hater, that's not the case at all. But, there are things I dislike about the car - things that I feel the 4th gen did better. Mainstream buyers would not agree, which is why the 4th gens didn't appeal to those types.

JHL88

i think bottom line is the 5th gen is more mainstream than previous gens. for example, i get compliments all the time when im in my 2010. people ask me does it have leather seats? how fast is it? its a head turner. now when i had my 98 i every now and then would have someone come up to me and say oh man... you have an LS1, those are great motors, i remember when i had one what mods do you have? and i think GM, back in 98 built a car to get down to business. think of how it compared to a 98 mustang gt? their concentration was on performance. now its more broad. one thing i miss is the rawness of the 4th gens. sort of like the c5 compared to the c6 vettes.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

^Excellent post above.^

Exactly, much more mainstream generic car questions.

Spot on again, 4th gens were really more of a hard core enthusiasts car, drawing little attention/concern from "normal" people.


Dead right. In 1998, GM was BY FAR, with considerable advantage, the pack leader on "affordable performance". Though almost indenticle in price, the '98 Z28 was nearly in a different universe from the '98 Mustang GT acceleration wise; a V6 Camaro was more comparabe in the horsepower department. The primary goals of a 4th gen V8 Camaro were acceleration and affordability; not options/luxuries/comfort. Unfortunetly though, this was not enough to sell cars at the volume GM felt necessary for this model. Camaro was so good at being what is was "supposed" to be, that it turned off all but the purists and made itself extinct.

That's the first feeling I had the day I test drove a 5th gen. It's more of an entry level luxury coupe. Same feeling I was left with after driving a new GTO. That's great for mainstream sales and thus for GM. But the penalty for that is increased weight and thus reduced *potential* stock performance - a trade off that the average buyer likely has no issues with. Not to mention, the average buyer wouldn't appreciate a "rawness" aspect in the first place.

JHL88

i agree. i think GM just wanted to make more money this time around. im not saying the 5th gen is a bad car, in the end it has more potential than a stock LS1 in terms of power. i just wish the new 5th gens had the same entities that are missed from the 4th gens. i could dump my girlfriend and still be happy lol. i wish GM was still in the mindset they had when they built the 4th gens. i bought a 5th gen not to be in the "in crowd" or some crap like that. i bought it because... well its still a camaro and it has a LS3 that i will mod the snot out of

BOBthe4dH8r

iTrader: (1)

neither of these statements hold any water buddy. the 5th gen is the definition of ''pony car'', along with the stang.

blk/slvr02ss

iTrader: (21)

I am selling my 5th Gen this weekend and buying a 08 C6 because the LS-3 is a great HP motor w/ just bolt-on's in a lot lighter car.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

The V6 versions would be a "pony car", IMO. The V8 is a modern muscle car.

Can't blame you. I will eventually find a way to work one of these into my line up as well.

Element

iTrader: (5)

The 5th gen is heavy, IRS, and loaded with luxury features - about as far as you can get from what a pony car is supposed to be.

There's absolutely nothing alike between the 4th gen and 5th gen cars, aside from the name. The Camaro is the GTO as GM should have made it, not the next logical step in the progression from the 3rd to the 4th to the 5th gen f-body platform (I know the 5th gen isn't an f-body, but the analogy holds).

That's just my thought on it, and I know everyone is going to think differently....just tossing my cynical opinion out there.

BOBthe4dH8r

iTrader: (1)

Wikipedia-"Pony car is an American class of automobile launched and inspired by the Ford Mustang in 1964. The term describes an affordable, compact, highly styled car with a sporty or performance-oriented image. "

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Compact?! The 5th gen is as heavy as an old Chevelle with a BBC.

"Pony car" was a great description for the original Mustangs, and for future sub-8 cylinder versions of Mustang/Camaro/Challenger and their brand-family variants (Mercury/Pontiac/Plymouth). Once you started getting into 300hp small blocks and near 400hp big blocks, I think most people considered them muscle cars. I think the same is true today once you get into the upper level engine options.

Element

iTrader: (5)

Historically, muscle cars are more like GTOs, Chevelles, Cudas, etc - larger, originally family-oriented high-power vehicles that went straight pretty fast, but didn't handle so great. Pony cars were smaller, lighter, and more nimble - like the original Firebird and Mustang.

Muscle vs pony car really isn't a power issue (ergo, a 6-cylinder need not apply for either title), but more overall car description.

Pitbull329

iTrader: (3)

The raw power in a LS1 surpasses that what you feel in the new camaro. The seats are nice in the new camaro. Other than that... I like the ls1 f-body interior more. The stereo in that new camaro... seriously? Big fail, IMO. It's heavy and it feels heavy. IMO, stock for stock, the LS1 fbody is much more fun to drive than the new camaro. Mod for mod... Im sure fbody would still be more fun lol!


Ok, im out of here before the 2010 Camaro guys come in and decide to kill me!

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Cuda = Plymouth's version of a Challenger, which = Dodge's competition for the Camaro/Firebird & Mustang. Charger/Road Runner/GTX would have been the direct Mopar competitors for the Chevelle & GTO. By your definitions, Cuda (and thus Challenger) would be pony cars.

Originally, muscle cars were mid-sized coupes with large displacement engines borrowed from full-sized cars. Mustang and the "pony" concept were Ford specific when released. Yes, Camaro was designed to be the GM competition for Mustang, but shortly after the release of Camaro the lines were blurred between "pony" and "muscle". OEMs started stuffing the same full-sized platform engines into cars like the Camaro as what would be found in a Chevelle. Another example of blurred lines: much of the underpinnings and supporting parts of early Camaros were shared with Nova. They were nearly the same size in fact, and shared the same engine/trans/rear along with many other accessories. Most people would call the 350ci+ V8 Nova a muscle car, I think the same can be said for the V8 Camaro.

I don't think it's that cut-and-dried.

6-cylinder cars, traditionally, would never be called "muscle", though they could still fit the "pony" term.

Engine size/performance has a lot to do with what category a given car fits into. "Muscle" can supersede other titles for a given model. Examples: '69 Chevelle SS396 = muscle. '69 Malibu with 307ci 2bbl = basic, mid-sized coupe or 2/4 door sedan. '69 Nova SS396 = muscle. '69 Nova with 250ci 1bbl = basic, small 2/4 door sedan. As for Camaro, if the 6-cyl. isn't a pony car, then what was it? In my mind, Camaro follows the same path as the others.

I'll also say that obviously much of this is opinion based. Most people credit GM with the concept of "muscle car", starting with the GTO. That being the case, you could say that GM defined the term. Keeping that in mind, there are several instances I've seen in print & media where GM themselves has referred to V8 F-bodies as "muscle cars". Then you have the poor, misguided souls that call Camaros "sports cars" (I too have been guilty of this when speaking to people outside of the hobby, it's just easier sometimes )

NC01TA

Sorry, it's a pony car. I have proof.

Attachment 249078

Element

iTrader: (5)

Heh, my Mopar-fu is weak. The fat Dodge cars is what I meant.

That's where it gets interesting - sorting what a muscle car is, and what a pony car is, and how to decide which is which. I've always thought of a pony car as being fast, but more biased towards handling, whereas muscle cars were fast, but more biased towards straight-line performance and larger (albeit only slightly) body platforms. The term "muscle car" has sort of evolved to include almost any old-school Detroit iron, which is apt in itself, but starts to trend towards over-generalization.

On an situational basis, I agree here. While I don't exactly think a 6-cylinder car fits all the criteria for a pony car (with the exception of something like a TTA), due to the (general) lack of performance from a V8 compared to a V8, you toss the "fast" aspect of pony cars and concentrate more on the handling aspect, and since the overall body, chassis, and suspension remains the same (acknowledging that V6 cars often get base suspension setups, rather than the higher-spec versions found on the more expensive V8 cars), I guess technically one could call a V6 Firebird a "pony car", but, at least to me, that requires tossing some of the criteria that makes a pony car a pony car.

Yeah, I've seen everything from G35s to Maximas ("the four-door sports car!" according to a local dealership's radio ad) to to 325i cars referred to as "sports cars". All depends on who you're talking to.

ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

if GM ever allows me to use all my gm card points and i can sell my GTO im getting a 5th gen. itll be my DD and it wont be heavily modified.

i like 5th gens but theyre in no way the best performance car ever made. but i do like they way they ride and solid feel.

CranMaro99

iTrader: (10)

Haha yeah in a perfect world this would be the coolest thing ever, right?

I think the 1st gen Camaro is one of the best looking and well-rounded cars ever designed, for some reason.