Swens651

Good point with the cold engine start. I see this thread coming to a consensus of sorts: "Let it sit"... Will do!!

hardbones

If it hasn't snowed or no salt has been put down then I will drive it as late as possible in the year. This last winter she was put away the week before Thanksgiving. As soon as the salt hits the road the car is done for the year.
Sea Foam is a fuel stabilizer too and has a longer shelf life than Stabil.
I use it in everything that gets stored over the winter, lawn mower, weed wacker, leaf blower and put some in each gas can I have in the shed.

DANOZ28

iTrader: (1)

if a valve spring breaks dont blame a fellow minnesotan. cheers. people in canada & alaska start their cars all the time when its 20, 30 below! just sayn. ps i may not have 10k posts but i have driven 2 vehicles over 200 thousand miles in minnesota so i think i know alittle about taking care of my cars.

dckmn52

While most people advise a full tank of gas, i drain the thing down as far as it will go and let it sit.
Fuel quality today is FAR less than it was 5 years ago. We've had gas sitting in a vehicle go bad in just 2 months. The way I see it, there is no reason to pump that nasty fuel through your injectors and fuel system, and definitely not 16+ gallons of it after sitting for 6 months.

I fire up in the spring and load the tank with fresh 91 and drive it around. Haven't had any issues since I owned the car doing it this way.

I'm going to rest easier this year with it in a heated garage.
Good luck OP

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

If you are so concerned about valve springs, you can turn the engine by hand to change their position. This will also move the pistons and help prevent cylinder wall scoring over long-term storage. There is no need to actually start the engine for this purpose (I guess if you have super high compression it might be harder to do this without pulling the spark plugs.) I don't see either as being an issue for short-term winter storage though, since I haven't had a valve spring break (stock or aftermarket for mild cams) or an engine start burning oil after winter storage my entire life (now including 16 years of age on my oldest LS1 engine.) I've known some people with very aggressive cams that have super high spring rates just loosening the rockers for winter storage; though I don't see this as necessary for a stock or mild engine.

Moisture in the tank will do more harm than anything, when it comes to E10 or higher modern fuels. The more air in the tank, the more potential moisture is trapped in said air. So a full-as-possible tank with Stabil (or similar product) added will prevent the typical damage seen by moisture + E10 fuels. This is an even bigger concern with metal tanks and fuel systems that are not fully sealed.

As said above, Sea Foam is another option, but I've had great results from Stabil. It lasts on the shelf for up to two years after the bottle has been opened, but mine never sits around that long anyway since I use it with every fill-up in my garage queens (they sit a lot even during the on-season.)

The entire fuel system in my '98 is still assembly-line original, and even after sitting for months the engine will fire up as though it had been started yesterday. Fuel stabilizers are an excellent way to prevent most of the fuel system issues that people see in stored or seldom used cars. As another point of reference, I've recently had the Holley on my SBC apart and the inside still looks like brand new (hasn't ever been rebuilt and was manufactured in 2008). This car sits a lot, and always receives E10 fuel + Stabil.....which seems to be working great.

DANOZ28

iTrader: (1)

i may have asked you this before but do you have proof starting a car 6 or 7 times over the winter with full synthetic oil causes damage?

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Those people don't do this because it's "good" for the engine, they do it because they need to drive the car for transportation. If you are able to store the car for the winter, it's much easier on the engine to NOT start it when it's so cold out.

A few extra cold starts won't specifically "damage" the engine (assuming proper oil), but cold starts (especially very cold weather cold starts) are a main contributor (often *the* main contributor) to wear in a typical street engine. Feel free to do the research yourself, just as I have. Point being, why contribute unnecessary wear for no benefit when you don't plan to actually drive the car? Again, concerns about valve springs and cylinder wall scoring (these would be more for long-term storage and not short winter storage of 3-6 months, in my opinion and experience) can be addressed in ways that don't require actually starting the engine. So I just don't see the benefit in firing the engine just to let it idle in the driveway.

Ultimately, it's less about what damages or doesn't damage the engine, since nothing discussed here is going to be an instant death sentence, but rather what causes the least amount of wear, or wear vs. benefit.

RevGTO

iTrader: (12)

I think this is the point. It's a matter of proportion. If you're driving a car 500-2000 miles a year, it's silly to worry about engine damage from cold starts. Your engine will outlast you. Of course, nobody would advocate starting your non-DD car when it's -30* out, but even in MN it warms up from time to time in the winter. I remember when a friend when to college in the 80's up there, and there were days when it was warmer there than in SoCal. Often it will be in the 30's and 40's at least. Those are the times to start the car and drive it, bringing it up to operating temp.

And, as a matter proportion, what is the safe time window for letting a car sit? 6 months? A year? 3 years? 10 years? We all know the hazards of buying a car that has sat for extended periods.

The old school rule is that cars are meant to be driven, and they deteriorate when they are not. Admittedly, I'm thinking in terms of the 60's, but wheel cylinder seals, master cylinder seals, valve cover gaskets, etc. etc. dry up and go bad when not kept in frequent use.

My 69 Judge engine rebuild had 11 years and about 4k miles on it when the rear main seal started leaking (on a traditional Pontiac, you have to pull the engine to replace it). Would it have lasted longer if I drove it less often but for longer periods? Or if I drove 10k a year?

I admit I'm old school. But that's my point and I'm sticking to it (until convinced otherwise). I try to drive my non-DD cars as often as I can, weather permitting.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I agree, I wouldn't worry about "damage" from those extra cold starts, but they do incur extra wear without any benefit IMO, and that's the main reason I see no point to it.

The longest I have ever gone is 7 years. This was with a '76 Eldorado/500ci engine, with over 110k miles on it at the time. Frankly, it wasn't properly prepped for storage (belonged to a relative) and had basically just been parked in a garage in October of 2000 (not driveable due to brake line rupture) and then not run or moved until September of 2007. Surprisingly, with some fresh gas it fired up and ran just fine and was driven regularly by the friend I sold it to for a year before he put it back in storage. We didn't rebuild the carb, and no new oil leaks presented nor worsened once it was back into service. I was a bit surprised by this, as I expected some issues but none seemed to arise.

I've heard people say that "cars will rot away if you don't drive them regularly", but in reality I have not experienced this. In fact, I have found that cars deteriorate just as much if not more when they are used frequently. Usage (heat, friction, temp cycling, load stresses, etc.) wears most things out at least as much as sitting. In my own little experiment, I owned my garage queen '98 Z28 right along side my daily driven '02 Z28 for many years. When I sold the '02 early this spring, it was at 106k miles vs. 17k miles for the '98; both had stock engines and only the most minor of bolt-ons, neither with any sort of track or street abuse to speak of. Both of them received premium care and maintenance respective to their usage. The '02 developed more leaks, seeps, squeaks and worn out parts than the '98 ever did, even though the '98 was 4 years older, spends most of the time sitting, and doesn't get started or moved for 4-6 months each winter. In this case, the garage queen held up better from sitting than the daily driver did from being used.

I think the idea that seldom-used cars will "rot away" comes from the fact that many people who don't drive their cars regularly also don't maintain them properly for their roles. For example, I've encountered some people who seem to think that coolant rarely needs to be changed if the car is seldom driven, and then they end up with rotted heat cores and radiators. And now this person thinks that sitting was the problem, when in reality it was the lack of proper fluid maintenance.

Unfortunately, there is no way to know for sure without having two of the same and using them in different ways. FWIW, the SBC in my '71 was last rebuilt in the mid-'90s, and just this last year developed a valve cover gasket leak and a minor seep from the oil pan. That took about two decades to happen though, and this car also sits every winter, all winter long - and it's driven maybe once or twice every two weeks even during the on-season. Would the valve cover gasket not have started leaking if the car was driven every day for those ~20 years? Or if the engine was started and run every week? Who knows, but I doubt the cork material would have fared any better with the frequent temp cycling and considerably more engine heat exposure that comes with frequent usage.

As a side note, I think cars stored outside don't hold up as well as their indoor counterparts (meaning more than just cosmetics). Temp and humidity changes are more frequent and rapid, and moisture from rain tends to work it's way into things even if the car is covered. I am less confident about durability when it comes to long term outdoor storage in harsh climates, not specifically about the engine but rather the entire car (brakes will rust/lock-up, etc.)

216StealthSS

i am in cleveland ohio if you guys want to talk rust, calcium chloride and salt, ground cinder used here ,all are roads are literally white after a snow storm. trucks that are not even 3-4 years old showing rust already, i park mine for 6 months and dont even look at it, remove the battery and fill the tank. mind you the temp here does not get crazy, but a few below 0 days and mostly 10-30's degrees here through the winter. all though i am not **** about my car as i should be.

98RaptorTA

iTrader: (1)

I just happened across these: http://www.carcoonusa.com/#!services1/c205t

Pretty slick if you garage park during winter and they seem affordable.

Swens651

haha those are awesome. Seem a bit spendy, but I like them and would definitely get one if I had the money.

RevGTO

iTrader: (12)

My Judge sat in a garage for 18 years (tear down revealed that broken piston rings were the problem). When we dropped the gas tank, I expected to find a mass of sludge and varnish, but the fuel was perfectly clear and the tank walls perfectly clean. I was amazed! I did the perfunctory stuff like blowing out all the fuel lines, but it was really unnecessary. Had it been possible to start the engine, it probably would have fired right up on that old gas.

waterbug1999

iTrader: (3)

just blow your **** up so it sits on jackstands forever.

Swens651

Hhaha, nice. Sorry to hear about that.

SparkyJJO

iTrader: (11)

For what it is worth, my car had no leaks when I got it in the spring of 2012. I have no garage. It sat outside from December to early March 2013, which was a mild winter, and in that time the battery went dead and the rear main started leaking a little bit.

Spring 2013 I put a charger on the battery on a whim and after about 4 hours it started to take a charge. It worked all summer surprisingly. Rear main still leaks slightly. No other bad things happened that I could find.

Winter 2013-2014 it sat outside again, this time from October to mid March. It was far colder, harsher, longer... just brutal. Subzero quite a bit, tons of snow, the works. Weird thing is it didn't seem to faze it at all. Battery didn't die this time, no new leaks, nothing. I call that the zombie battery now.

The only real prep I ever did both times was put fuel stabilizer in the tank, fill it full with premium, drive it home, and park it. I had crap tires that I didn't care about flat spotting. In the spring I start it up and let it idle up to full operating temp while I check/fill tires, check for leaks, etc. First time I drive it I go more carefully to make sure things are moving and all OK before getting on it at all.

This November I'm getting a house with a garage, so that will be nice. I replaced the wheels and tires this spring but kept the junk ones just for the winter storage.

I agree with the idea of just letting it sit vs starting it in cold weather. My car is cammed, and it is grumpy when it is in the 30s, and sounds downright awful on a cold start below 30 with how much it gags and sputters. It isn't even that aggressive of a cam either. That really unstable RPM can't be good for getting oil moving properly, so just avoid it IMO.