Ebay, JEGS and others have banned sale of HPTuners and other items
02-14-2023, 06:24 AM
#21
TECH Addict
thank the coal rollers for bringing this sort of thing front and center to the public.
generally people see older or modern loud cars and think 'thats pretty cool' or just dont really care, generally pretty benign. but they see some dickweed in a f250 with the rear end 3' lower than the front billowing smoke all over the place or strategically at the prius in the next lane sure dont think the same thing. the EPA cant look away from that and focus on more important things.
glad all my cars are old enough (or electric) not to matter.
generally people see older or modern loud cars and think 'thats pretty cool' or just dont really care, generally pretty benign. but they see some dickweed in a f250 with the rear end 3' lower than the front billowing smoke all over the place or strategically at the prius in the next lane sure dont think the same thing. the EPA cant look away from that and focus on more important things.
glad all my cars are old enough (or electric) not to matter.
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LCBE (02-20-2023)
02-14-2023, 06:28 AM
#22
What caught my eye mostly was the Ebay mention of banning this:
"Aftermarket standalone (non-OEM) electronic control unit (ECU), including full electronic fuel injection (EFI) conversion kits"
Could these not reasonably be sold under the application of pre-emissions vehicles being converted to "more efficient" EFI? As such, I just don't see how Ebay can be worried about liability for items that are not specifically designed to defeat preexisting EPA certified equipment. I mean sure, you can install a complete aftermarket EFI management system on a modern car that already came equipped with SEFI, but that's hardly the same as selling a specific block-off plate or software that easily allows an emissions bypass via manipulation of an OEM configuration at one's fingertips.
If you simply just "list" these types of management systems for only pre-emissions vehicles, how is Ebay to be held liable if someone happens to install it on a 2022 Camaro? Isn't that type of liability essentially what this Ebay blanket policy is pandering to or suggesting? Like mentioned above, how would it be any different (from a liability perspective, for Ebay) if someone bought a non-compliant aftermarket carburetor designed for pre-emissions vehicles and then went to all the hassle to fab this up on a modern SEFI engine?
To be clear, I'm not arguing with YOU at all, I just think Ebay is going a bit overboard with the blanket policy (assuming I'm understanding it correctly).
Sounds like a good idea.
"Aftermarket standalone (non-OEM) electronic control unit (ECU), including full electronic fuel injection (EFI) conversion kits"
Could these not reasonably be sold under the application of pre-emissions vehicles being converted to "more efficient" EFI? As such, I just don't see how Ebay can be worried about liability for items that are not specifically designed to defeat preexisting EPA certified equipment. I mean sure, you can install a complete aftermarket EFI management system on a modern car that already came equipped with SEFI, but that's hardly the same as selling a specific block-off plate or software that easily allows an emissions bypass via manipulation of an OEM configuration at one's fingertips.
If you simply just "list" these types of management systems for only pre-emissions vehicles, how is Ebay to be held liable if someone happens to install it on a 2022 Camaro? Isn't that type of liability essentially what this Ebay blanket policy is pandering to or suggesting? Like mentioned above, how would it be any different (from a liability perspective, for Ebay) if someone bought a non-compliant aftermarket carburetor designed for pre-emissions vehicles and then went to all the hassle to fab this up on a modern SEFI engine?
To be clear, I'm not arguing with YOU at all, I just think Ebay is going a bit overboard with the blanket policy (assuming I'm understanding it correctly).
Sounds like a good idea.
Back in the day a long time ago this might have been a reasonable argument... Now they do what they like and if you don't like it you have to spend more money than either of us will ever have going to court to prove them wrong.. Just can't win these days once they decide you are having too much fun
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Kfxguy (02-14-2023)
02-14-2023, 07:19 AM
#23
What caught my eye mostly was the Ebay mention of banning this:
"Aftermarket standalone (non-OEM) electronic control unit (ECU), including full electronic fuel injection (EFI) conversion kits"
Could these not reasonably be sold under the application of pre-emissions vehicles being converted to "more efficient" EFI? As such, I just don't see how Ebay can be worried about liability for items that are not specifically designed to defeat preexisting EPA certified equipment. I mean sure, you can install a complete aftermarket EFI management system on a modern car that already came equipped with SEFI, but that's hardly the same as selling a specific block-off plate or software that easily allows an emissions bypass via manipulation of an OEM configuration at one's fingertips.
If you simply just "list" these types of management systems for only pre-emissions vehicles, how is Ebay to be held liable if someone happens to install it on a 2022 Camaro? Isn't that type of liability essentially what this Ebay blanket policy is pandering to or suggesting? Like mentioned above, how would it be any different (from a liability perspective, for Ebay) if someone bought a non-compliant aftermarket carburetor designed for pre-emissions vehicles and then went to all the hassle to fab this up on a modern SEFI engine?
To be clear, I'm not arguing with YOU at all, I just think Ebay is going a bit overboard with the blanket policy (assuming I'm understanding it correctly).
"Aftermarket standalone (non-OEM) electronic control unit (ECU), including full electronic fuel injection (EFI) conversion kits"
Could these not reasonably be sold under the application of pre-emissions vehicles being converted to "more efficient" EFI? As such, I just don't see how Ebay can be worried about liability for items that are not specifically designed to defeat preexisting EPA certified equipment. I mean sure, you can install a complete aftermarket EFI management system on a modern car that already came equipped with SEFI, but that's hardly the same as selling a specific block-off plate or software that easily allows an emissions bypass via manipulation of an OEM configuration at one's fingertips.
If you simply just "list" these types of management systems for only pre-emissions vehicles, how is Ebay to be held liable if someone happens to install it on a 2022 Camaro? Isn't that type of liability essentially what this Ebay blanket policy is pandering to or suggesting? Like mentioned above, how would it be any different (from a liability perspective, for Ebay) if someone bought a non-compliant aftermarket carburetor designed for pre-emissions vehicles and then went to all the hassle to fab this up on a modern SEFI engine?
To be clear, I'm not arguing with YOU at all, I just think Ebay is going a bit overboard with the blanket policy (assuming I'm understanding it correctly).
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02-14-2023, 07:54 AM
#25
What caught my eye mostly was the Ebay mention of banning this:
"Aftermarket standalone (non-OEM) electronic control unit (ECU), including full electronic fuel injection (EFI) conversion kits"
Could these not reasonably be sold under the application of pre-emissions vehicles being converted to "more efficient" EFI? As such, I just don't see how Ebay can be worried about liability for items that are not specifically designed to defeat preexisting EPA certified equipment.
"Aftermarket standalone (non-OEM) electronic control unit (ECU), including full electronic fuel injection (EFI) conversion kits"
Could these not reasonably be sold under the application of pre-emissions vehicles being converted to "more efficient" EFI? As such, I just don't see how Ebay can be worried about liability for items that are not specifically designed to defeat preexisting EPA certified equipment.
So, how can Ebay be held responsible if someone uses items bought from them to break the law? Especially if the item specifically says "offroad use only" and has a very clear market in the offroad space?
The answer is that the EPA is no longer allowing the "offroad use only" disclaimer to make a seller immune when the EPA can demonstrate that most buyers of the product are using it on the street.
I think I remember reading this was Ebay's specific justification right here: in 12/2020 the EPA sent out an "Enforcement Alert" that can be read here: https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/fi...s-enfalert.pdf
Inside that alert is the following:
"CLAIMS OF COMPETITION-USE ONLY
The EPA has found that many companies that make and sell aftermarket defeat devices claim “competition
only” use but cannot provide any information to show that their products are used solely in competition
motorsports. The Clean Air Act does not contemplate removing emissions controls from an EPA-certified motor
vehicle in order to convert it into a competition vehicle. As a matter of enforcement discretion, the EPA’s
longstanding practice has been not to take enforcement action against vehicle owners for removing or defeating
the emission controls of their EPA-certified motor vehicles, so long as they can show the vehicles are used solely
for competition events and no longer driven on public roads.
Recent EPA investigations have revealed evidence showing that hundreds of thousands of diesel pickup trucks
have had their emissions controls completely removed, and most or all the aftermarket defeat devices used to
tamper these trucks were sold under the claim of “competition only.” The sheer volume of aftermarket defeat
devices belies the assertion that they are only for competition motorsports"
Again you can see they use Diesel Pickups as a specific example demonstrating that to be their focus, and they now have the attitude that if you sell something that "can be used" to defeat pollution devices, you now have to enforce that it's being used correctly or you're responsible. Apparently Ebay's and Jeg's lawyers believe this to be legally enforceable, since they both caved and are losing a lot of revenue.
In that PDF they list several examples of companies that paid huge penalties, note that they are all diesel related.
It's somewhat paralleled to the gun makers being sued because of mass shootings. If a certain make/model of firearm is demonstrated to mostly be used in crimes, apparently our society believes the makers of that gun are responsible. I kinda see their point but I don't necessarily agree with it completely. The whole "guns don't kill people" concept.
So my bottom line is yes, I agree that we need to fix the problem with these diesel trucks. But no, the answer is not to use a broad brush and wipe out an entire hobby and racing market to do so.
I think HPTuners may want to change their slogan: "Tuning software does not make street cars pollute, TUNERS do." Maybe I'll make that my SIG lol...
Last edited by mk3cn4; 02-14-2023 at 08:16 AM.
02-14-2023, 02:12 PM
#26
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I suspect that ebay is using a blanket policy as a matter of cost and convenience... it's cheaper and easier (and less fraught with pitfalls) to make such a blanket policy than to have to selectively enforce a more focused policy to determine if a given listing is allowable or not....It's much easier for ebay to simply ban listings of certain types of devices without having to consider whether they apply only to older non-certified vehicles.
). As these kits weren't primarily designed or intended as a "defeat device" for an EPA certified vehicle, or really even for primary use on a car that already came fully equipped with an all-inclusive SEFI powertrain, I just think Ebay is being a bit silly on this point in particular. I don't think there there is a huge percentage of folks converting their late model street cars to complete aftermarket EFI, thus I don't see the USEPA attacking a vendor for products that were primarily designed, and arguably intended, for pre-emissions cars and/or cars with originally less efficient means of fuel delivery (vs. a simple "plug 'n play" defeat device for late model stuff).Ahh, I see your point. Yea I totally misunderstood what you were saying. But I have an answer for that...
So, how can Ebay be held responsible if someone uses items bought from them to break the law? Especially if the item specifically says "offroad use only" and has a very clear market in the offroad space?
The answer is that the EPA is no longer allowing the "offroad use only" disclaimer to make a seller immune when the EPA can demonstrate that most buyers of the product are using it on the street.
I think I remember reading this was Ebay's specific justification right here: in 12/2020 the EPA sent out an "Enforcement Alert" that can be read here: https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/fi...s-enfalert.pdf
Inside that alert is the following:
"CLAIMS OF COMPETITION-USE ONLY
The EPA has found that many companies that make and sell aftermarket defeat devices claim “competition
only” use but cannot provide any information to show that their products are used solely in competition
motorsports. The Clean Air Act does not contemplate removing emissions controls from an EPA-certified motor
vehicle in order to convert it into a competition vehicle. As a matter of enforcement discretion, the EPA’s
longstanding practice has been not to take enforcement action against vehicle owners for removing or defeating
the emission controls of their EPA-certified motor vehicles, so long as they can show the vehicles are used solely
for competition events and no longer driven on public roads.
Recent EPA investigations have revealed evidence showing that hundreds of thousands of diesel pickup trucks
have had their emissions controls completely removed, and most or all the aftermarket defeat devices used to
tamper these trucks were sold under the claim of “competition only.” The sheer volume of aftermarket defeat
devices belies the assertion that they are only for competition motorsports"
Again you can see they use Diesel Pickups as a specific example demonstrating that to be their focus, and they now have the attitude that if you sell something that "can be used" to defeat pollution devices, you now have to enforce that it's being used correctly or you're responsible. Apparently Ebay's and Jeg's lawyers believe this to be legally enforceable, since they both caved and are losing a lot of revenue.
In that PDF they list several examples of companies that paid huge penalties, note that they are all diesel related.
So, how can Ebay be held responsible if someone uses items bought from them to break the law? Especially if the item specifically says "offroad use only" and has a very clear market in the offroad space?
The answer is that the EPA is no longer allowing the "offroad use only" disclaimer to make a seller immune when the EPA can demonstrate that most buyers of the product are using it on the street.
I think I remember reading this was Ebay's specific justification right here: in 12/2020 the EPA sent out an "Enforcement Alert" that can be read here: https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/fi...s-enfalert.pdf
Inside that alert is the following:
"CLAIMS OF COMPETITION-USE ONLY
The EPA has found that many companies that make and sell aftermarket defeat devices claim “competition
only” use but cannot provide any information to show that their products are used solely in competition
motorsports. The Clean Air Act does not contemplate removing emissions controls from an EPA-certified motor
vehicle in order to convert it into a competition vehicle. As a matter of enforcement discretion, the EPA’s
longstanding practice has been not to take enforcement action against vehicle owners for removing or defeating
the emission controls of their EPA-certified motor vehicles, so long as they can show the vehicles are used solely
for competition events and no longer driven on public roads.
Recent EPA investigations have revealed evidence showing that hundreds of thousands of diesel pickup trucks
have had their emissions controls completely removed, and most or all the aftermarket defeat devices used to
tamper these trucks were sold under the claim of “competition only.” The sheer volume of aftermarket defeat
devices belies the assertion that they are only for competition motorsports"
Again you can see they use Diesel Pickups as a specific example demonstrating that to be their focus, and they now have the attitude that if you sell something that "can be used" to defeat pollution devices, you now have to enforce that it's being used correctly or you're responsible. Apparently Ebay's and Jeg's lawyers believe this to be legally enforceable, since they both caved and are losing a lot of revenue.
In that PDF they list several examples of companies that paid huge penalties, note that they are all diesel related.
Interestingly, you would think that Jegs would be more concerned than Ebay based on the outcome of their EPA battle, yet they still list hand-held tuners for sale right on their website, specifically intended and listed for use on modern, EPA-certified vehicles (there are no less than half a dozen such items under "2002 Camaro" on their site). These devices modify the factory tune in ways that are not consistent with the originally certified FTP, performed and submitted by the OEM, for a given engine-chassis configuration, but they do list a CARB EO number. So, clearly even Jegs feels there is still some wiggle room. The Ebay policy sounds as though any/all tuning devices are banned, CARB # or not.
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Threadzy (02-23-2023), wannafbody (02-15-2023)
02-15-2023, 08:33 PM
#28
I drive my Camaro SS about 3000 miles per year, it has high flow cats on it, and probably emits slightly more emissions than stock. I guarantee you, just one soccer mom's full size SUV driving an average of 12,000 miles per year is going to emit far more than that. What about the emissions from power plants used to create electricity to power these so called zero emissions electric cars? Or the pollution that is created when they reach the end of their useful life? People with enthusiast vehicles, as a whole, are not driving crazy amounts of miles with them. Enthusiast vehicles likely account for less than 1% of all vehicles on the road. This is nothing but an attack on low hanging fruit. The combined yearly emissions of every enthusiast vehicle out there is not enough to justify shutting us all down. There are better places to cut emissions, but guess what? They're lining politicians pockets, so they're conveniently overlooked.
02-15-2023, 08:36 PM
#29
I drive my Camaro SS about 3000 miles per year, it has high flow cats on it, and probably emits slightly more emissions than stock. I guarantee you, just one soccer mom's full size SUV driving an average of 12,000 miles per year is going to emit far more than that. What about the emissions from power plants used to create electricity to power these so called zero emissions electric cars? Or the pollution that is created when they reach the end of their useful life? People with enthusiast vehicles, as a whole, are not driving crazy amounts of miles with them. Enthusiast vehicles likely account for less than 1% of all vehicles on the road. This is nothing but an attack on low hanging fruit. The combined yearly emissions of every enthusiast vehicle out there is not enough to justify shutting us all down. There are better places to cut emissions, but guess what? They're lining politicians pockets, so they're conveniently overlooked.
02-15-2023, 08:42 PM
#30
Is that an "alternate" fact?
If not, then what do they mean here when stating: "The average coal-fired power plant in the United States operates near 33% efficiency" ( https://www.energy.gov/fecm/transfor...-power-systems )
Then there is nuclear, with its own set of very long lasting waste concerns and not really a ton more efficiency either.
If not, then what do they mean here when stating: "The average coal-fired power plant in the United States operates near 33% efficiency" ( https://www.energy.gov/fecm/transfor...-power-systems )
Then there is nuclear, with its own set of very long lasting waste concerns and not really a ton more efficiency either.
02-15-2023, 08:49 PM
#31
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NC01TA (02-16-2023)
02-15-2023, 10:49 PM
#32
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02-16-2023, 05:23 AM
#33
I don't have emissions testing where I'm at, but I still wanted to run cats to make my exhaust cleaner than it would be without it. As someone said earlier, all of the diesel trucks "rolling coal" brought too much negative attention to what should be a positive hobby. Most of the general public doesn't care one way or another about cars as anything but basic transportation, and their opinions can easily be swayed. Drive a cool looking ride with decent exhaust and a lumpy cam, and they might think it's cool. Drive a big diesel truck that's belching out black smoke at stoplights, and they're going to start complaining. Same as the idiots doing "street takeovers" and doing donuts in intersections, etc. It reflects poorly on ALL car guys (and ladies). We should strive to be ambassadors for our hobby, and be respectful of others while still enjoying what we do. I care about the environment and I am passionate about cars, which seems counterintuitive, but those things aren't mutually exclusive. As for ethanol, my Firebird will be converted to run on E85 once it's done. Mostly for power, but if it burns cleaner and is somewhat renewable, I'm all for it.
02-16-2023, 08:27 AM
#34
TECH Enthusiast
The sad part for our species and our planet is that no matter how hard we try to do things "the right way" in our country, China is still venting R12 directly into the atmosphere to produce Styrofoam. They dont give two ***** about the environment. All of our efforts are wasted in a day by other countries and their practices.
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NC01TA (02-16-2023)
02-16-2023, 08:28 AM
#35
TECH Enthusiast
Instead, I opted for AV registration on my '98 so that it could be exempt from testing just like my old dinosaur cars. Not that it really matters what it emits, as it hasn't seen more than 300-500 miles per year in the last 18 years at least.
The dangers (such as that which occurred in 1986 and 2011) and waste concerns of nuclear are well documented and should not be overlooked; there is no free lunch and no easy fix for reliably generating and distributing electricity (especially with the rapid increase that would be needed if it were to become the primary means of powering transportation in the near future) sans waste/pollution. But, honestly, you lost me as soon as you mentioned "Bill Gates"...
The dangers (such as that which occurred in 1986 and 2011) and waste concerns of nuclear are well documented and should not be overlooked; there is no free lunch and no easy fix for reliably generating and distributing electricity (especially with the rapid increase that would be needed if it were to become the primary means of powering transportation in the near future) sans waste/pollution. But, honestly, you lost me as soon as you mentioned "Bill Gates"...
I wonder if he realizes how much of Gates' income is from oil........
02-16-2023, 08:56 AM
#36
The sad part for our species and our planet is that no matter how hard we try to do things "the right way" in our country, China is still venting R12 directly into the atmosphere to produce Styrofoam. They don't give two ***** about the environment. All of our efforts are wasted in a day by other countries and their practices.
02-16-2023, 12:39 PM
#37
TECH Enthusiast
I suppose the folks around the world still living in tents, walking on dirt roads and without big shopping malls, high rise buildings and all our material needs might say the same about us... all this talk about cars, etc. is just nibbling around the edges, I suppose if we could go back to a simpler lifestyle with today's efficiencies it would be better.. Think about all the crap you throw away rather than fix these days and what that must do to the environment...
Not saying we shouldnt do what we can to live cleaner, by all means we should. But we have people ending up in prison for tuning a car while China sprays pollutants into the air for giggles. Its asinine.
02-16-2023, 02:00 PM
#38
Interesting they went after re-seller platform/distributors as there is no news on HP's site about this stupidity (I mean they have to know about it or they do and are being quiet for now). Similar situation over at thedieselplace forum, was surprised on anything related to tuning an LML or newer is just non-existent since the EPA shake-up.
Sadly, the writing is in the wall for tuning a vehicle whether it be at a shop or remotely if off-road or off-highway does not apply. Will be more like this never happened/cash/on your software/no video or photo (or selfie with your tuner) may soon be a reality. Even then a hurt feelings customer is going to ruin it for someone as the risk for the tuner will not be worth the reward. Makes me think about the old exhaust shops in my small town growing up that had the sign, "Want me to remove your catalytic converter, that'll be $10,000" or something along those lines for the fine they would receive. Then you stop back late on a Saturday afternoon with cash and no one else around, and well your car's exhaust tone changed when you left. A lot more road blocks in place today than the days of yesterday...
Sadly, the writing is in the wall for tuning a vehicle whether it be at a shop or remotely if off-road or off-highway does not apply. Will be more like this never happened/cash/on your software/no video or photo (or selfie with your tuner) may soon be a reality. Even then a hurt feelings customer is going to ruin it for someone as the risk for the tuner will not be worth the reward. Makes me think about the old exhaust shops in my small town growing up that had the sign, "Want me to remove your catalytic converter, that'll be $10,000" or something along those lines for the fine they would receive. Then you stop back late on a Saturday afternoon with cash and no one else around, and well your car's exhaust tone changed when you left. A lot more road blocks in place today than the days of yesterday...
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02-16-2023, 03:02 PM
#39
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Sadly, the writing is in the wall for tuning a vehicle whether it be at a shop or remotely if off-road or off-highway does not apply. Will be more like this never happened/cash/on your software/no video or photo (or selfie with your tuner) may soon be a reality. Even then a hurt feelings customer is going to ruin it for someone as the risk for the tuner will not be worth the reward. Makes me think about the old exhaust shops in my small town growing up that had the sign, "Want me to remove your catalytic converter, that'll be $10,000" or something along those lines for the fine they would receive. Then you stop back late on a Saturday afternoon with cash and no one else around, and well your car's exhaust tone changed when you left. A lot more road blocks in place today than the days of yesterday...
Reading the above conjures thoughts of the prohibition era, and the fact that criminalizing liquor manufacturing and sales didn't really do anything to stop it (in fact, some have argued that evidence indicates an actual increase in usage during those years). It just went "dark/underground". You can't successfully stop folks from doing a thing or having a thing if they really want it.
02-16-2023, 04:02 PM
#40
Totally agree, when I go do some "spirited" driving, it's where there's not going to be people around, and I'm not likely to hurt my car in the process. I try not to give anyone a reason to say that hot rodders are bad news. As for running cats on my car, the price was hardly different to get them, and even if it's a drop in the bucket, I personally feel it's better than nothing. That said, my Firebird will NOT be getting a cat with my turbo setup, because that's ridiculous. I'll probably drive it less than my Camaro anyway. But yeah, we definitely need the RPM Act to pass... last I knew, the bill died after the election. It needs to be re-introduced... Maybe someone will add it as some pork to something else, lol.