mk3cn4

iTrader: (3)

Maybe this is old news for some of you, I guess I see why there haven't been any used MPVI2 or 3 devices listed on Ebay last few months:

"eBay is not currently allowing any tuners, regardless of functionality, in order to ensure compliance with our policy prohibiting defeat devices. Please do not relist.”

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/p...&customid=7496

What is the policy?

Products that bypass, defeat or render inoperative emission-control systems aren’t allowed, either on their own or when combined with other hardware or software. See the EPA Enforcement Alert - opens in new window or tab for more information. Examples of such products include, but are not limited to:

• ​Tuners, services, software or devices that modify the performance of vehicles, such as cars, trucks and off-road vehicles
• Aftermarket standalone (non-OEM) electronic control unit (ECU), including full electronic fuel injection (EFI) conversion kits
• Powertrain or exhaust parts intended for “race only” or “off-road only”
• Active fuel management/Dynamic fuel management or auto start-stop disablers
• Blocking plates for emission control systems
• Products that remove factory catalytic converters (CAT) or diesel particulate filters (DPF), selective catalytic reduction (SCR) and diesel exhaust fluid (DEF)
• Throttle response controllers
• Exhaust servo eliminators
• Devices intended to bypass or reduce flow to oxygen sensors

Activity that doesn't follow eBay policy could result in a range of actions including for example: administratively ending or canceling listings, hiding or demoting all listings from search results, lowering seller rating, buying or selling restrictions, and account suspension. All fees paid or payable in relation to listings or accounts on which we take any action will not be refunded or otherwise credited to your account.

EDIT: EPA apparently getting very serious last few years. I thought that fines were all that would happen. They actually list a case here in my local state where someone got 6 months jailtime for doing defeat devices on 30 commercial trucks. Maybe the end of our hobby is near.

SIX CHARGED WITH CONSPIRING TO DEFRAUD THE
UNITED STATES AND VIOLATE THE CLEAN AIR ACT
Six individuals with various relationships to Rockwater
Northeast LLC (Rockwater), a hauling service for the oil and
gas industry in Pennsylvania, were charged with conspiring
to violate the Clean Air Act. The men conspired to modify
the emissions systems on approximately thirty Rockwater
heavy-duty diesel trucks by using aftermarket defeat
devices. The purchase of the defeat devices was concealed
in Rockwater’s books and records by mislabeling them as
exhaust systems. The conspirators were also accused of
taking the modified commercial motor vehicles to state
approved inspection stations to pass federally regulated
commercial motor vehicle inspections falsely.
Sentencing proceedings for the defendants began in
February of 2020 and, as of this writing, one defendant has
been sentenced to six months imprisonment. Rockwater
agreed to pay a $2 million dollar penalty and Select Energy
Solutions, Inc., a Texas-based successor in interest to
Rockwater, agreed to pay a $2.3 million dollar penalty.
For more information on the case, please visit:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-mdpa/pr/water-
management-companies-enter-resolutions-pay-43-
mimillion-monetary-penalties-clean


EDIT#2: Jegs stopping selling HPT too: https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa...act-violations

EPA Settlement with Jeg’s Automotive Inc. of Delaware, Ohio, Resolves Clean Air Act Violations for Sales of Motor Vehicle Emission Control Defeat Devices

Company will pay $300,000 penalty and perform supplemental environmental project valued at $275,000 to replace school buses in areas of environmental justice concern in Columbus, Ohio.
"Between June 1, 2016, and July 23, 2020, Jeg’s sold at least 1,892 defeat devices, including exhaust gas recirculation, or EGR, block plates, pipe kits and electronic control module reprogrammers, also known as tuners. The EGR block plates block the portion of the exhaust gas stream that is diverted back to the engine’s air intake system. The pipe kits enable the removal of a catalytic converter or a diesel particulate filter from the motor vehicles. The tuners prevent the on-board diagnostics from sending trouble codes to activate the check engine light or limp mode. Jeg’s has removed all violative products from its website and will post a notice about the settlement on its website for at least 90 days."


LAST EDIT: It's going to get worse because "eliminating vehicle emissions defeat devices" is currently one of the agency’s six National Compliance Initiatives, which means it's one of the 6 main targets for enforcement for FY 2024 through 2027.

https://www.aeaweb.org/forum/3452/na...posed-comments

I guess a lot of you guys said this was coming. I shouldn't be surprised.

Kfxguy

iTrader: (1)

jesus. we can't do nothing....they don't want us to have guns, fast cars...whats next?

LS1Formulation

iTrader: (13)

This is seriously terrible stuff, because if they do this, then they can also go and ban the sale of any aftermarket EFI systems, any add ons, pretty much anything at all that affects emissions. So it'll 100% kill the racing and performance hobby as we know it.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

It would be hard for the EPA to argue that something is a "defeat device" when it was not designed to fit or function on an actual EPA regulated (as currently defined) vehicle. There are hobbyist cars still on the road which were manufactured well prior to introduction of the modern FTP (Federal Test Procedure, which is used for USEPA certification).

Ebay seems to be reading a bit too much into this, in that there is no law to be violated for using non-certified items on cars that were never comprehensively or truly "certified" in the first place. So universal banning of items regardless of their model year applicability is a bit rash. With that said, I do understand that complete EFI kits, with enough modification, can be used on a modern car just the same as an old one, but I don't see how Ebay would have any real liability to investigate if the buyer is using the item for its listed application (conversely, what if someone buys a perfectly legal carburetor for a non-certified, non-regulated 1963 [whatever], then installs it on a modern vehicle?)

This attack comes hard on the modern performance industry, but not much can be done to control what owners do to (or businesses sell for) cars from the distant past.

I had mentioned years before that the hobby might shift heavily towards the older cars, just for this reason. As if their prices weren't already inflated enough.

For those of us with old dinosaurs, guess we'd better hang on to them.

Papermachtech

It's going to get better as we all will have better air and children will be able to breathe.
I modify old car made before the modern era. They pollute less than the original motors.
Sorry not everyone takes the short term view of things.

LS1Formulation

iTrader: (13)

I drive my Camaro SS about 3000 miles per year, it has high flow cats on it, and probably emits slightly more emissions than stock. I guarantee you, just one soccer mom's full size SUV driving an average of 12,000 miles per year is going to emit far more than that. What about the emissions from power plants used to create electricity to power these so called zero emissions electric cars? Or the pollution that is created when they reach the end of their useful life? People with enthusiast vehicles, as a whole, are not driving crazy amounts of miles with them. Enthusiast vehicles likely account for less than 1% of all vehicles on the road. This is nothing but an attack on low hanging fruit. The combined yearly emissions of every enthusiast vehicle out there is not enough to justify shutting us all down. There are better places to cut emissions, but guess what? They're lining politicians pockets, so they're conveniently overlooked.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Logic or facts such as these never seem to have an impact with the fanatics.

All we can do is speak with our votes...if only they all counted.

Gene Cheeseman

I remember the good ole days when word of this coming would be posted and deleted very quickly.
Well, here we are. Good thing all those posts were deleted.

Kfxguy

iTrader: (1)

I have to shake my head at this. People have been whining about this since the 70’s. Why not just get rid of all the cows too since they pollute more than cars do? This climate thing is a made up ordeal. If you look back through history, you will find that natural disasters and things go through cycles.
here’s some info on how cows pollute more than cars. And that’s not even including other animals on earth.
https://animals.howstuffworks.com/ma...ethane-cow.htm

Papermachtech

You still have the CATS installed. That's isn't what I am considering in my post I am talking full deletes. Where I live there is no testing and half the new trucks have been modified and the CATS and particulate filters removed. I have no issues with going fast, I do it. I am for enthusiast vehicles. I am confident mine pollutes less than it did in 1970. Way less. I am not pulling emission from my new truck either.
BTW coal burning power plants are over 80% efficient. Elect cars are over 90% efficient. No current ICE cars come close to 20% efficiently. In the end efficiently will rule. Will be awhile for large trucks but for passenger cars they, can and do, go further using less energy because 80% goes out the radiator and the tail pipe. The co-founder of Tesla has a start up that is working on recycling the Lithium for the used batteries.
Logic or facts such as these never seem to have an impact with the fanatics. I agree.
Our only differences may be on the definition of Fanatics.
I have said enough and convinced no one.

01CamaroSSTx

iTrader: (3)

I can't think of a better way to push the EV narrative.. Just sayin

mk3cn4

iTrader: (3)

Unfortunately, the fact that Jegs was fined and basically forced to pull all products from their site actually proves Ebay is not reading too much into this.

And, EPA are apparently narrowing down what vehicles this applies to.

Example #1:
"The EPA quietly tweaked the language of the Clean Air Act in 2016, which some argue changed the scope of the law entirely. Specifically, the language may prevent one from building a race car from any vehicle that carries a VIN tag. This has created massive issues for the companies responsible for dolling out off-road use parts, with several large brands forced into large financial settlements with the EPA over the past year."

Example #2:
“As a matter of enforcement discretion, the EPA’s longstanding practice has been not to take enforcement action against vehicle owners for removing or defeating the emission controls of their EPA-certified motor vehicles, so long as they can show the vehicles are used solely for competition events and no longer driven on public roads. The EPA doesn’t perfectly mirror that sentiment in its legal filings for the lawsuit:“Motor vehicles, however, cannot become racing vehicles even if they are used solely for competition. They remain motor vehicles, “designed for transporting persons or property on a street or highway,” and continue to be regulated as such.”
That statement is also noticeably careful to leave out the companies that make racing conversions possible."


Above was taken from: https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...ing-companies/

SEMA and other enthusiasts have sponsored a bill in congress to better define this and protect the hobby. There's a good video on that site that explains the counter argument to the EPA position.

http://www.saveourracecars.com

mk3cn4

iTrader: (3)

For what it's worth, the vast majority of the EPA efforts seem to be aimed at Trucks. I don't have the link handy, but there was one site that listed notes on their progress and they were using their measurement of trucks with defeat devices as a measuring stick to determine their success of their policies. They found that their efforts were not being effective at reducing the road-used street defeat devices on these diesel trucks, which I read to mean that's why they are ramping up the effort and making it one of the main 6 priorities through 2027.

There was some statistic that demonstrated that their sampling showed like 15% of ALL trucks have defeat devices, I think that was the number. I could be wrong, can't find the article now.

But it was the trucks that seemed to **** them off.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Is that an "alternate" fact?

If not, then what do they mean here when stating: "The average coal-fired power plant in the United States operates near 33% efficiency" ( https://www.energy.gov/fecm/transfor...-power-systems )

Then there is nuclear, with its own set of very long lasting waste concerns and not really a ton more efficiency either.

mk3cn4

iTrader: (3)

That's exactly what SEMA and the RPM Bill in Congress say, you hit the nail on the head. Simple EGR Blockoff plates were specifically mandated to be pulled from the Jegs site as an example.

https://saveourracecars.com talks all about that.

Blurb: The RPM Act of 2021 (H.R. 3281/S.2736), is common-sense, bi-partisan legislation to protect Americans’ right to convert street vehicles into dedicated racecars and the motorsports-parts industry’s ability to sell products that enable racers to compete. The bill clarifies that it is legal to make emissions-related changes to a street vehicle for the purpose of converting it into a racecar used exclusively in competition. It also confirms that it is legal to produce, market and install racing equipment.

Please spread the word around our community.

Kfxguy

iTrader: (1)

aaaaand evidently you aren’t aware of the MASSIVE pollution and environmental impact caused by the mining of lithium? It’s pretty bad when some random guy on the internet has to link information for you to show you that you are HIGHLY MISTAKEN AND MISINFORMED.


https://climate360news.lmu.edu/lithi...as-we-thought/

or how about this? (Three instances where the largest lithium producer has contaminated people water killing all the marine life).

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lith...ronment-impact


i could keep going, but I’ll assume you have your blinders on. There’s a saying that comes to mind. It’s easier to lie to people than to convince them they have been lied to.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

What do you mean by "all products"? I don't really understand, as I see that Jegs still sells programmers and many other items that are not of OEM spec.



The "some" and "may" suggest that this isn't really definitive, nor should it be taken as such. Simply carrying a VIN tag, especially from an era prior to the standardized 17-digit format which always includes specific data such as engine type, has little to do with this IMO; emissions requirements and OE certified specifications and configurations (as met via USEPA FTP, etc.) are set by model year. If the vehicle was built prior to such comprehensive standards, or really any standards at all (I don't believe there was any federal intervention on mobile source emissions prior to 1965), then what standards could you even hold them to, or be in violation of? In other words, how can one be in violation of standards or comprehensive original emissions configurations/specifications that don't and didn't exist?



Again, the issue (or disconnect) lies with the fact that dinosaur cars were not EPA certified in the first place, some built before the EPA was even created, and some even before the earliest version of the Clean Air Act in 1963. So while they may still be "motor vehicles designed for transporting persons or property on a street or highway", they cannot be in violation of an original certification that doesn't and didn't exist.

This same principle applies to safety equipment and crash standards. Old cars do not need to meet new(er) regulations in such areas.

So it's hardly reasonable to say that one is in violation of anything when installing an aftermarket EFI kit on a old, dirty carb'ed dinosaur. In fact, by presenting such hurdles they (the EPA) would just be pushing folks back to carburetors. Hardly helpful if the goal is to reduce emissions.

SAN (SEMA Action Network) is a great resource for this, and I support them.

wannafbody

iTrader: (2)

The country that detonated 57 nukes is worried about your car's emissions. Airplanes literally dump fuel in the sky but the EPA is worried about your car.

mk3cn4

iTrader: (3)

I understand your point, so let me clarify my scope. The concern is about "converting street cars into race cars", and in the process defeating the power robbing pollution controls. It's all those parts that are starting to be banned everywhere, including direct fit racing exhaust and EGR blockoffs.

My original post was done in the PCM Tuning forum and MODs (maybe you lol?) moved it here, HPTuners and related things were my original focus and concern. So you are right that older cars don't have emissions rules and are exempt, those aren't the typical street car being converted to a race car. Parts that don't apply to street cars in any way are also ones I'm not talking about. So yea I shouldn't have said "all parts", you're right.

Someone who is going to convert a street car into a race car (or keep it on the street but still do the racing mods) isn't "usually" going to have a rare vintage car to do this with. It'll likely be something that has some pollution controls on it.

EDIT: In the almost 20 years I've been on LS1TECH, I've never once had a SIG line.. I'm think I'm going to finally create one promoting the RPM Bill and the saveourracecars.com site next chance I get.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

What caught my eye mostly was the Ebay mention of banning this:

"Aftermarket standalone (non-OEM) electronic control unit (ECU), including full electronic fuel injection (EFI) conversion kits"

Could these not reasonably be sold under the application of pre-emissions vehicles being converted to "more efficient" EFI? As such, I just don't see how Ebay can be worried about liability for items that are not specifically designed to defeat preexisting EPA certified equipment. I mean sure, you can install a complete aftermarket EFI management system on a modern car that already came equipped with SEFI, but that's hardly the same as selling a specific block-off plate or software that easily allows an emissions bypass via manipulation of an OEM configuration at one's fingertips.

If you simply just "list" these types of management systems for only pre-emissions vehicles, how is Ebay to be held liable if someone happens to install it on a 2022 Camaro? Isn't that type of liability essentially what this Ebay blanket policy is pandering to or suggesting? Like mentioned above, how would it be any different (from a liability perspective, for Ebay) if someone bought a non-compliant aftermarket carburetor designed for pre-emissions vehicles and then went to all the hassle to fab this up on a modern SEFI engine?

To be clear, I'm not arguing with YOU at all, I just think Ebay is going a bit overboard with the blanket policy (assuming I'm understanding it correctly).

Sounds like a good idea.