LT1 Cooling Problem
11-14-2005, 11:36 PM
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LT1 Cooling Problem Ok Guys .... Here's your chance to show off ! Here's the deal ...
My daughter's 95 Trans Am 5.7 liter continues to overheat. Here's all the new stuff..
water pump
radiator and cap
thermostat
heads /head gasket
In other words everything but the block
No water in the oil
No oil in the coolant
No water leaks
No fan belt slack
Block has been flushed ... coolant is nice and clean
Checking the coolant every day to make sure it is OK.
Checked the thermostat 3 times and convinced it is OK.
Radiator fans turn on and off like they are suppose to.
Have let it idle for 1.5 to 2 hours parked without any overheating when testing the fans and thermostat.
The engine may run for 2 to 20 days and is perfectly Ok ... then it overheats. Let it cool down overnight, replace the coolant lost, and go again for 2-20 days. However, the time between overheating seems to be getting shorter each time it overheats.
I believe the heads or head gasket may be bad even though they are new. The mechanic who put the heads on swears the block was OK but says there was a crack in one of the old heads. The overheating problem seems to be worst with the new heads but may be just my imagination.
Anyone have any experience with this same problem ??
I could sure use some help on this one !
My daughter's 95 Trans Am 5.7 liter continues to overheat. Here's all the new stuff..
water pump
radiator and cap
thermostat
heads /head gasket
In other words everything but the block
No water in the oil
No oil in the coolant
No water leaks
No fan belt slack
Block has been flushed ... coolant is nice and clean
Checking the coolant every day to make sure it is OK.
Checked the thermostat 3 times and convinced it is OK.
Radiator fans turn on and off like they are suppose to.
Have let it idle for 1.5 to 2 hours parked without any overheating when testing the fans and thermostat.
The engine may run for 2 to 20 days and is perfectly Ok ... then it overheats. Let it cool down overnight, replace the coolant lost, and go again for 2-20 days. However, the time between overheating seems to be getting shorter each time it overheats.
I believe the heads or head gasket may be bad even though they are new. The mechanic who put the heads on swears the block was OK but says there was a crack in one of the old heads. The overheating problem seems to be worst with the new heads but may be just my imagination.
Anyone have any experience with this same problem ??
I could sure use some help on this one !
11-15-2005, 06:39 AM
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I have the same car but not the same problem. Are her fans running when it overheats? Do you bleed the system everytime you fill it back up?
I know that my car will DEFINATELY overheat if there is air in the system.
If you don't have oil in the coolant or smoke out the exhaust, the heads are probably OK. Intermittant problems are really fun... You've come to the right place, though. These guys know they're sh@#!
I know that my car will DEFINATELY overheat if there is air in the system.
If you don't have oil in the coolant or smoke out the exhaust, the heads are probably OK. Intermittant problems are really fun... You've come to the right place, though. These guys know they're sh@#!
11-15-2005, 12:19 PM
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Jkichline ....
Yep, fans are running and turn on/off when tested and I will double check to see if the fans are running when it overheats. I can tell you this .. it will overhead cruising down the Interstate at 1700 RPM when no fans are even needed.
Air in the cooling system ... maybe ... but I do know that air acts as an insulator and have definitely tried to be sure there was no air in the cooling system. Used the bleeds to remove air and run the engine for a few minutes to let the water level go down .. add more coolant ... and repeat until coolant level stabilizes.
Just talked to the mechanic who put the new heads on ... Tells me they were not new ... but that the machine shop pressure tested the heads for cracks. The wrong head gasket is still a possibility. He also suggested that I double check the water pump to see if it is generating enough flow to have enough circulation for the cooling system. Does not seem likely but you never know. Sometimes even new parts are bad.
Yep, fans are running and turn on/off when tested and I will double check to see if the fans are running when it overheats. I can tell you this .. it will overhead cruising down the Interstate at 1700 RPM when no fans are even needed.
Air in the cooling system ... maybe ... but I do know that air acts as an insulator and have definitely tried to be sure there was no air in the cooling system. Used the bleeds to remove air and run the engine for a few minutes to let the water level go down .. add more coolant ... and repeat until coolant level stabilizes.
Just talked to the mechanic who put the new heads on ... Tells me they were not new ... but that the machine shop pressure tested the heads for cracks. The wrong head gasket is still a possibility. He also suggested that I double check the water pump to see if it is generating enough flow to have enough circulation for the cooling system. Does not seem likely but you never know. Sometimes even new parts are bad.
11-15-2005, 12:28 PM
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My LT1 is the same way. Had the coolent flushed and everything squeeky clean. Not loosing coolent at all, but it continues to start runnin very hot when sitting in any traffic. I know that part of the reason is that there is no dirrect air flow to the radiator, because once I starting moving it drops. But I dont think my fans are coming on. Are they connected to a fuse somewhere or something I can try to fix them. I know they work, because when the guy at autozone tried to pull some codes, they came on?
Any one know of something.
Any one know of something.
11-15-2005, 02:12 PM
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TranzAm...
Well, if it overheats cruising on the interstate at 1700 RPM (your probably doing around 60-65 mph if your in 6th), the problem is not your fans. Unless your fans are blowing in the wrong direction and their not turning off. I would think that this would probably blow the fan motors, though. Check the polarity of the wire connectors and make sure the fans are blowing in the right direction.
The only other thing I can think of is the splined shaft that comes out of the motor and slips into the water pump, did it look rounded or worn? I'm thinking maybe that thing could be slipping a little and getting worse with time...
I'll keep thinking...
Well, if it overheats cruising on the interstate at 1700 RPM (your probably doing around 60-65 mph if your in 6th), the problem is not your fans. Unless your fans are blowing in the wrong direction and their not turning off. I would think that this would probably blow the fan motors, though. Check the polarity of the wire connectors and make sure the fans are blowing in the right direction.
The only other thing I can think of is the splined shaft that comes out of the motor and slips into the water pump, did it look rounded or worn? I'm thinking maybe that thing could be slipping a little and getting worse with time...
I'll keep thinking...
11-15-2005, 11:15 PM
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Jkichline ...
I bow to your analytical abilities !! DC motors can run backward. Reverse polarity on the fans had not crossed my mind. It makes sense to me even though I assume the connectors would not allow it. I think the fans are blowing in the right direction but it does not hurt to double check. I will definitely check into this.
I am going to check the coolant flow ASAP ... hopefully tommorow. If the spline is stripped or somehow slipping, it should show up as poor coolant flow. The mechanic who did the head work said he had seen impellers that were worn to the point that they would not push enough coolant. By the way this was just a standard head surfacing .. nothing exotic. Poor coolant flow seems to be the most likely cause right now.
Any experience with this stuff called "water wetter" ? Supposedly it increases the heat transfer from the block to the coolant. I don't understand how it would work except to decrease the surface tension of the coolant. As you can tell I'll try about anything at this point.
I'll let you know ! THANKS FOR THE HELP.
I bow to your analytical abilities !! DC motors can run backward. Reverse polarity on the fans had not crossed my mind. It makes sense to me even though I assume the connectors would not allow it. I think the fans are blowing in the right direction but it does not hurt to double check. I will definitely check into this.
I am going to check the coolant flow ASAP ... hopefully tommorow. If the spline is stripped or somehow slipping, it should show up as poor coolant flow. The mechanic who did the head work said he had seen impellers that were worn to the point that they would not push enough coolant. By the way this was just a standard head surfacing .. nothing exotic. Poor coolant flow seems to be the most likely cause right now.
Any experience with this stuff called "water wetter" ? Supposedly it increases the heat transfer from the block to the coolant. I don't understand how it would work except to decrease the surface tension of the coolant. As you can tell I'll try about anything at this point.
I'll let you know ! THANKS FOR THE HELP.
11-15-2005, 11:28 PM
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bmccrary ...
If you fan motors do not come on, the motors could be bad ... but it is not likely that both motors would go at the same time ... so it is probably the controls. I believe you have an "engine coolant temperature" sensor to start and stop the fans. I could be wrong on this ... would have to check the wiring diagram.
Hope this helps.
If you fan motors do not come on, the motors could be bad ... but it is not likely that both motors would go at the same time ... so it is probably the controls. I believe you have an "engine coolant temperature" sensor to start and stop the fans. I could be wrong on this ... would have to check the wiring diagram.
Hope this helps.
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11-16-2005, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by TranzAm
Jkichline ...
Any experience with this stuff called "water wetter" ? Supposedly it increases the heat transfer from the block to the coolant. I don't understand how it would work except to decrease the surface tension of the coolant. As you can tell I'll try about anything at this point.
Any experience with this stuff called "water wetter" ? Supposedly it increases the heat transfer from the block to the coolant. I don't understand how it would work except to decrease the surface tension of the coolant. As you can tell I'll try about anything at this point.
I can't imagine that you have worn impeller blades on a new water pump, unless it is a "rebuilt" one by a dishonest manufacturer.
I haven't come up with any other brilliant ideas. But I was thinking about what you have and have not replaced. You said that you replaced the radiator, thermostat, water pump, and head gasket....
Did you replace any of the hoses? Could it be, that you have a "chunk" of something in one of the hoses that could intermittantly cause a blockage of water flow? If you replaced the head gasket, I'm assuming that the old one went bad. If the old one deteriorated and started flowing through the system, maybe a chunk was left behind in a hose.... It's a long shot, but a valid thought. Also, a kink in a hose would do the same thing (just like your garden hose). I guess I would make sure that the heater core is cleared out, too. hmmmm, does it overheat with heat on or off?
Last edited by jkichline; 11-16-2005 at 05:04 AM.
11-19-2005, 12:05 AM
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jkichline ...
I am still checking .... BUT I think I am on to something. I went back to double check a few items and noticed the following ----
The cooling fans are coming on when I start the engine and the engine is still cold. Now why would the cooling fans be on when the car is first started in the morning ??
I do not know exactly how the fans are suppose to work but I would think that they should only come on when the coolant is up to a certain temperature ... not when the engine is cold. This bothered me so I took out all the fan relays and all 3 tested good and all 3 are the same part number and brand. They do not seem to be sticking and they are solid state as well. According to my book there is just the ECT (engine coolant temperature) sensor for input to the computer and then an output from the computer to the fan relays. I pulled the ECT sensor and throughly tested it in hot water and it is good. That leaves the computer as the only other component.
Now, on one ocassion Thursday, the cooling fans were not running. I did not think much of it at the time as the engine was only warm .... so I figured there was no need for the fans to be on. Then today, Friday, the fans come on when the engine is cold ? Seems that something strange is going on.
I am going to do some more checking into this fan problem. I have to somehow find out what the fan sequence is ... then I can compare what I see to the standard cycle. I just can't believe the fans are suppose to come out immediately when the engine is started. If these fans are turning on and off erratically then that would fit what I am seeing. They could be turning off at stoplights and signs and letting the coolant start to boil out. I have been questioning my Daughter about what she has seen but I am not sure she is really giving me correct information.
I hate to say it but my problem just might be the computer. I need to watch closely when and under what conditions the fans turn on and off.
Also, I thought about a piece of something in the engine or head that was blocking the flow. This just might be the problem ... but why would the engine overheat in such an erratic fashion ?? If there is a plug, I would expect consistentcy. It would run hot all the time. Also, the engine was flushed when the radiator was replaced.
I use 50/50 green coolant. I like to keep things as simple as I can. I don't need more complications in my life.
The coolant flow seems to be more than adequate from my tests. So I am going to forget about the water pump unless I see something to change my mind.
I will eventually find out what's going on. I keep saying to myself .. "How can this thing be this difficult"
I am still checking .... BUT I think I am on to something. I went back to double check a few items and noticed the following ----
The cooling fans are coming on when I start the engine and the engine is still cold. Now why would the cooling fans be on when the car is first started in the morning ??
I do not know exactly how the fans are suppose to work but I would think that they should only come on when the coolant is up to a certain temperature ... not when the engine is cold. This bothered me so I took out all the fan relays and all 3 tested good and all 3 are the same part number and brand. They do not seem to be sticking and they are solid state as well. According to my book there is just the ECT (engine coolant temperature) sensor for input to the computer and then an output from the computer to the fan relays. I pulled the ECT sensor and throughly tested it in hot water and it is good. That leaves the computer as the only other component.
Now, on one ocassion Thursday, the cooling fans were not running. I did not think much of it at the time as the engine was only warm .... so I figured there was no need for the fans to be on. Then today, Friday, the fans come on when the engine is cold ? Seems that something strange is going on.
I am going to do some more checking into this fan problem. I have to somehow find out what the fan sequence is ... then I can compare what I see to the standard cycle. I just can't believe the fans are suppose to come out immediately when the engine is started. If these fans are turning on and off erratically then that would fit what I am seeing. They could be turning off at stoplights and signs and letting the coolant start to boil out. I have been questioning my Daughter about what she has seen but I am not sure she is really giving me correct information.
I hate to say it but my problem just might be the computer. I need to watch closely when and under what conditions the fans turn on and off.
Also, I thought about a piece of something in the engine or head that was blocking the flow. This just might be the problem ... but why would the engine overheat in such an erratic fashion ?? If there is a plug, I would expect consistentcy. It would run hot all the time. Also, the engine was flushed when the radiator was replaced.
I use 50/50 green coolant. I like to keep things as simple as I can. I don't need more complications in my life.
The coolant flow seems to be more than adequate from my tests. So I am going to forget about the water pump unless I see something to change my mind.
I will eventually find out what's going on. I keep saying to myself .. "How can this thing be this difficult"
11-19-2005, 09:32 PM
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jkichline ...
It's Saturday Nov. 19 ... Looking at the fans again. And guess what .. today the cooling fans will not come on at all !!!
Yesterday, the fans came on when I started the engine and would not go off !!
Now today, I ran the engine until it was almost in the red on the temp gauge and the fans never came on ... not one time.
I turned the car off Friday ... and started the engine up today ... now the fans are not coming on. I have not done anything but start the engine. I stopped and started the engine 10-12 times yesterday and the fans ran every minute the engine was running. I stopped and started the engine 5-6 times today and the fans never came on one time like they did yesterday.
Ok, so I have a psycho engine. Anybody have a good electrical schematic for the cooling fan circuit ???
It's Saturday Nov. 19 ... Looking at the fans again. And guess what .. today the cooling fans will not come on at all !!!
Yesterday, the fans came on when I started the engine and would not go off !!
Now today, I ran the engine until it was almost in the red on the temp gauge and the fans never came on ... not one time.
I turned the car off Friday ... and started the engine up today ... now the fans are not coming on. I have not done anything but start the engine. I stopped and started the engine 10-12 times yesterday and the fans ran every minute the engine was running. I stopped and started the engine 5-6 times today and the fans never came on one time like they did yesterday.
Ok, so I have a psycho engine. Anybody have a good electrical schematic for the cooling fan circuit ???
11-19-2005, 11:06 PM
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The defrost setting on the HVAC will turn the A/C on which will in turn turn on your fans. I might have missed it, but did you replace the temp sensor for the pcm. Those years I believe they were seperate for the PCM and the gauge.
Tim
Tim
11-20-2005, 11:08 PM
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biggnome ....
Tim .... I did not replace the ECT ( Engine Coolant Temperature ) sensor ... I did remove it and put it in a pan of water ... heated and cooled it 2 times and measured temperature and resisitance ... Charts are right in line with what they should be. ... I'm convinced it is OK.
I have found out that If I turn the HVAC selector **** to "orange - heat" or "cool - airconditioning", the fans turn on .. BUT ....
The fans will not turn on if the HVAC selector is on any "white - blow air and off" setting. I can by-pass the ECT and pull the computer low at the ECT terminal of the computer and the fan will come on. Yeah, I know, sounds like the ECT sensor.
ASAP, I plan to check the computer terminals for any corrosion. This would increase the resistance in the ECT sensor circuit and make the ECT sensor appear to be bad. I am also going to pull the HVAC instrument panel in the passenger compartment and check the switches/contacts in it. I have to also check for any broken wires or loose connections in the ECT sensor wires.
What I really need is a good wiring diagram for a 95 Trans Am. I have a Chilton book but for some reason it does not have anything on the HVAC wiring. Know anyone who has such a wiring diagram ??
Tim .... I did not replace the ECT ( Engine Coolant Temperature ) sensor ... I did remove it and put it in a pan of water ... heated and cooled it 2 times and measured temperature and resisitance ... Charts are right in line with what they should be. ... I'm convinced it is OK.
I have found out that If I turn the HVAC selector **** to "orange - heat" or "cool - airconditioning", the fans turn on .. BUT ....
The fans will not turn on if the HVAC selector is on any "white - blow air and off" setting. I can by-pass the ECT and pull the computer low at the ECT terminal of the computer and the fan will come on. Yeah, I know, sounds like the ECT sensor.
ASAP, I plan to check the computer terminals for any corrosion. This would increase the resistance in the ECT sensor circuit and make the ECT sensor appear to be bad. I am also going to pull the HVAC instrument panel in the passenger compartment and check the switches/contacts in it. I have to also check for any broken wires or loose connections in the ECT sensor wires.
What I really need is a good wiring diagram for a 95 Trans Am. I have a Chilton book but for some reason it does not have anything on the HVAC wiring. Know anyone who has such a wiring diagram ??
11-21-2005, 11:44 AM
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TranzAm....
I'm going to nominate you for father of the year this year...
Your daughter is really lucky to have you!!
I am really looking forward to those years with my kids...
It sounds like you are narrowing in on this. I guess that your fans were working intermittantly which is the reason for overheating only once and a while. I know you tested your relays but maybe one or more is starting to go bad. Maybe try swapping them around and see what happens. If not a relay, the voltages to the relay terminals could be off. I don't what they're supposed to be. I would take the relay out and measure the terminal connections as the engine warms and see what the voltage curves are. Then see if the voltages are enough to throw the relay.
You are definitely doing the right thing by checking connections and resistances. Any corrosions, bad grounds, or resistive wire could cause this problem.
I would REALLY be surprised if you said that the PCM is bad. I would think you'd run into a lot more problems than just the cooling system. Some of the guys here talk about reprogramming the fan turn on sequence to compensate for different thermostats. If you run into a dead end with all other checks, I would see if you could have somebody read the program for you to see when the fans are supposed to turn on.
Sorry, I don't have anything better than a chilton diagram. I could really use one of those shop manuals!
I'm going to nominate you for father of the year this year...
Your daughter is really lucky to have you!! I am really looking forward to those years with my kids...
It sounds like you are narrowing in on this. I guess that your fans were working intermittantly which is the reason for overheating only once and a while. I know you tested your relays but maybe one or more is starting to go bad. Maybe try swapping them around and see what happens. If not a relay, the voltages to the relay terminals could be off. I don't what they're supposed to be. I would take the relay out and measure the terminal connections as the engine warms and see what the voltage curves are. Then see if the voltages are enough to throw the relay.
You are definitely doing the right thing by checking connections and resistances. Any corrosions, bad grounds, or resistive wire could cause this problem.
I would REALLY be surprised if you said that the PCM is bad. I would think you'd run into a lot more problems than just the cooling system. Some of the guys here talk about reprogramming the fan turn on sequence to compensate for different thermostats. If you run into a dead end with all other checks, I would see if you could have somebody read the program for you to see when the fans are supposed to turn on.
Sorry, I don't have anything better than a chilton diagram. I could really use one of those shop manuals!
12-01-2005, 08:26 PM
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jkichline ....
Sorry guy! been busy with holidays and work and it actually rained here for 3 days .. I am working in the driveway.
Here's what I have done ...
1 - Pulled out the computer and checked connectors for corrosion, etc --- looks new.
2 - Checked HVAC panel under radio ... Swiches work as far as I can tell and no high resistance values. Problem is I am unsure of the wiring with no wiring diagram. Anyway switches must turn on and off ... and they do.
3 - Checked resistance for wiring to and from the ECT ( engine coolant sensor ). Looks ok ... but I want to recheck again ... I am suspicious of this. I am thinking more and more that my problem is in this area.
4 - The radiator cap is leaking a small amount of coolant .. it does not seal completely letting a little coolant leak out rather than back to the overflow tank. I'm not worried about this.
I am down to this ......
A - I am confident that mechanically everything is ok except the radiator cap.
B - I know for sure the fans work. They turn off and on when the heat or AC is selected. They will not come in any other position.
C - I have been driving the car and know that there is coolant in the system. I check it every morning.
D - The HVAC control panel does switch on and off .. interior fan works ... can adjust cold to hot on the temperature ****.
E - This leaves a control problem.
Ok if I assume it is a control problem, then why can I not detect a bad component or bad wiring ?? The ECT test OK in a pan of water with the resistance virtually a perfect fit with specs. The only component I can not throughly check is the engine control module (computer) ... but the fans do turn on if I pull the ECT terminal low.
Here is what I am thinking as a possibility ... Assume the computer's program says (start fans at a resistance of say 50 ohms across the ECT) ... but if that 50 ohms equates to 300 Degrees F. then my fans would never turn on before the engine overheats. I think I am going to see if I can get something like one of these Tech 2's to check my computer program and burn a new setting if it is to low for the ECT resistance.
I just can not seem to think of any thing else right now. There has got to be a logic to all this ... just not smart enough to see it. I'm just getting a little worn down checking and checking and not finding anything.
I'll keep you posted.
Sorry guy! been busy with holidays and work and it actually rained here for 3 days .. I am working in the driveway.
Here's what I have done ...
1 - Pulled out the computer and checked connectors for corrosion, etc --- looks new.
2 - Checked HVAC panel under radio ... Swiches work as far as I can tell and no high resistance values. Problem is I am unsure of the wiring with no wiring diagram. Anyway switches must turn on and off ... and they do.
3 - Checked resistance for wiring to and from the ECT ( engine coolant sensor ). Looks ok ... but I want to recheck again ... I am suspicious of this. I am thinking more and more that my problem is in this area.
4 - The radiator cap is leaking a small amount of coolant .. it does not seal completely letting a little coolant leak out rather than back to the overflow tank. I'm not worried about this.
I am down to this ......
A - I am confident that mechanically everything is ok except the radiator cap.
B - I know for sure the fans work. They turn off and on when the heat or AC is selected. They will not come in any other position.
C - I have been driving the car and know that there is coolant in the system. I check it every morning.
D - The HVAC control panel does switch on and off .. interior fan works ... can adjust cold to hot on the temperature ****.
E - This leaves a control problem.
Ok if I assume it is a control problem, then why can I not detect a bad component or bad wiring ?? The ECT test OK in a pan of water with the resistance virtually a perfect fit with specs. The only component I can not throughly check is the engine control module (computer) ... but the fans do turn on if I pull the ECT terminal low.
Here is what I am thinking as a possibility ... Assume the computer's program says (start fans at a resistance of say 50 ohms across the ECT) ... but if that 50 ohms equates to 300 Degrees F. then my fans would never turn on before the engine overheats. I think I am going to see if I can get something like one of these Tech 2's to check my computer program and burn a new setting if it is to low for the ECT resistance.
I just can not seem to think of any thing else right now. There has got to be a logic to all this ... just not smart enough to see it. I'm just getting a little worn down checking and checking and not finding anything.
I'll keep you posted.
01-01-2006, 10:22 PM
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Tranz Am,
Have you gotten anywhere with your T/A?
Over this holiday break, I have taken some time to look at my system. I replaced my thermostat and flushed and filled the system with 50/50 green stuff. I only have a chilton so I need more information. My fans turn on at 230. If they would turn on at 210 I'm sure that I would be fine. In my relay panel, there are three coolant fan relays (Coolant Fan #1, Coolant Fan # 2, and Coolant Fan # 3). I am thinking that one or more of these relays are not working properly or one of them is not getting the signal from the sending unit.
Does anybody know the sequence of how these relays work together? My guess is that one of them is for when A/C is running, one is for 210 degree fans, and the other is for safety (>230 degrees). But I don't have any manuals here other than chilton's. They don't even mention that there are 3 relays.
Have you gotten anywhere with your T/A?
Over this holiday break, I have taken some time to look at my system. I replaced my thermostat and flushed and filled the system with 50/50 green stuff. I only have a chilton so I need more information. My fans turn on at 230. If they would turn on at 210 I'm sure that I would be fine. In my relay panel, there are three coolant fan relays (Coolant Fan #1, Coolant Fan # 2, and Coolant Fan # 3). I am thinking that one or more of these relays are not working properly or one of them is not getting the signal from the sending unit.
Does anybody know the sequence of how these relays work together? My guess is that one of them is for when A/C is running, one is for 210 degree fans, and the other is for safety (>230 degrees). But I don't have any manuals here other than chilton's. They don't even mention that there are 3 relays.
