Blue Fire

well, im running it and never pulled my plug yet on it. so far it look's like a good oil i never did not test on it yet tho.it made a diff when i put it in as far as HP and i find with RP it's like right on the money. the Motor feel's a bit more tight kinda <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> maby there's a nother oil that's better out there. but so far due to people i hear some people come in the shop's and ask for it by name <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> anybody have a diff say sożżżżżżżżżżżżżżżżżżżżżżż <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />

Blue Fire

oop's dam lag sorry about that

Patman

I agree, one analysis isn't quite enough to establish a trend, however it is still very disturbing. How an oil can degrade so fast in such a short time is very disturbing, especially for a brand new car. Royal Purple promotes itself to racers, yet it doesn't seem to be quite up to the punishment, at least not their street oils. I'd really like to see an analysis on the race oils. If anyone is running it, please do us a favor and have an analysis done. The more data we gather the better, it's the only true way to learn what works and what doesn't.

Blue Fire

huh i second that..... <img border="0" alt="[fight]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_punch.gif" />

Fulton 1

iTrader: (9)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by StevieZ:
As far as facts are concerned, RP #41 is the ONLY oil I have used that leaves my drainplug clean. That is a visual fact that I personally call draw on since I have experience with RP, Redline, AMSOIL and Mobile 1. I have seen that with my own eyes and do not feel the need to prove it to you or anyone else. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So I've got some questions. Are you equating a clean drain plug with a quality motor oil? What is it about RP #41 that would clean your drain plug and how is that beneficial? Wouldn't the metallic particulate attached to your magnetic drain plug largely be a function of the filter, drain interval, and engine break-in mileage? Wouldn't even the highest quality oil carry a majority of particulate in suspension unless filtered?

<small>[ July 30, 2002, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Fulton 1 ]</small>

StevieZ

iTrader: (3)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So I've got some questions. Are you equating a clean drain plug with a quality motor oil? What is it about RP #41 that would clean your drain plug and how is that beneficial? Wouldn't the metallic particulate attached to your magnetic drain plug largely be a function of the filter, drain interval, and engine break-in mileage? Wouldn't even the highest quality oil carry a majority of particulate in suspension unless filtered?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I equate the lack of sediment on the magnet with lack of metal wear in the motor. RP#41 doesn't "clean" the magnet, it prevents the metal wear with its lack of friction. The oil filter gets bypassed at a certain RPM anyway, so if a motor is driven on the harder side quite a bit, then the filter's efficacy is greatly diminished.This is one reason that I personally don't go in for expensive filters that filter out 5 microns etc. All I expect from a filter is good components with good structual integrity. A really good oil is what prevents the actual wear which causes the buildup in the first place.

Patman

Even if you're using a super fine oil filter, you're still going to get better filtration, as the times where it's not in bypass mode it will clean the oil better. How much of an engine's life is spent at WOT? Less than one half of one percent I bet. So I wouldn't worry too much about the oil filter being in bypass mode for the very short amount of time. The rest of the time when you're driving normally, and the oil filter is not bypassing, it's cleaning the oil better.

At the same time, I question the need for a super fine filter on an engine like the LS1 or LT1. I wonder if the bearing clearances are as such that 10-20 micron particles will simply pass right through the engine without causing any wear at all. But this is a whole different topic alltogether. FWIW, I'm not using any special oil filters, I am running a regular AC Delco right now, and will probably be switching to a Purolator next (not the PureONE, but the regular $3 one).

Also, just one more quick point. If you have a very good air filter, you'll stop a lot of the particles getting into your oil in the first place. This is why I don't like the K&N air filters, I feel they let in too much dirt (especially when freshly cleaned, as the dirty filters actually trap more dirt particles).

<small>[ July 30, 2002, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Patman ]</small>

StevieZ

iTrader: (3)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Even if you're using a super fine oil filter, you're still going to get better filtration, as the times where it's not in bypass mode it will clean the oil better. How much of an engine's life is spent at WOT? Less than one half of one percent I bet. So I wouldn't worry too much about the oil filter being in bypass mode for the very short amount of time. The rest of the time when you're driving normally, and the oil filter is not bypassing, it's cleaning the oil better </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Patman , The motor does not have to be at WOT for the oil filter to be bypassed. It will happen after a certain RPM or PSI and although I am not sure exactly what that RPM or PSI is, I would be willing to bet it is around 3000RPM to 4000RPM or 50to 55PSI which my car sees every time I drive it.My Katech pump registers 50PSI at 2500 RPM, 55PSI at 2800RPM and 60PSI at anything over 3500RPM. I have seen more sediment on the plug than I ever have when I cut open a filter.(Which I do almost every oil change) If anyone knows at what RPM or PSI the filter gets bypassed at, feel free to chime in.

<small>[ July 30, 2002, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: StevieZ ]</small>

Patman

Keep in mind, if you're using the longer filter (which everyone should!) it will go into bypass much less often. It's possible that the filter bypasses at 3000rpm, but more than likely it's quite a bit higher than this. I believe the LS1 has an internal bypass in the bottom of the block, so I'm not sure if this activates more frequently than the ones built into the filter or not.

JS

iTrader: (4)

I have no facts but I would agree the RP41 is a very good oil with some racing additives.

I ran it for a long time.
I've switched to RL now since the moly in it so much higher in content.

I talked to the RP guys on the phone and they told me the RACING oil has no protective additives,He said as long as I ran it for 3500 miles or less it would be fine in a street car but didnt reccommend it longer than that.

As far a filter are concerned trapping 20 microns as opposed to 10 is silly.The KN is a very good filter.To make a statement that its not is rediculous.I wish the Ultra Gold was still made but alas its gone to the oil filter heaven in the sky.

I will run a Mobil one from now on
Glad I bought a case of Golds a while back

JS

Patman

Yes, those Ultraguard Golds were awesome! I used them exclusively in both cars until they stopped making them. I wish AC Delco had distributed them better, then maybe they would have sold more and wouldn't be pulling the plug on them. They do in fact still make the UPF44 though, but I still say that filter is way too small for the LS1. That sucker must go into bypass almost constantly. I used the UPF58 on my LS1.

StevieZ

iTrader: (3)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I talked to the RP guys on the phone and they told me the RACING oil has no protective additives,He said as long as I ran it for 3500 miles or less it would be fine in a street car but didnt reccommend it longer than that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's weird because they told me the exact opposite. The guy I spoke to in their technical support department said that the race oils have their best and most advanced additive package and that they were good for 6K to 7.5K miles between changes on the street.He claimed the race oils were their best oils period. He recommended changing the filter at 3K to 3.5K. RP #41 is labeled as their endurance oil and according to him it is made to last. I emailed them today and asked for a spec sheet on #41. I have always had the best results with it but now we will find out the lowdown.

Fulton 1

iTrader: (9)

Following is an article I'm reposting with permission from Mr. Halverson. It was submitted to the ZR1 Net along with a couple of C5 sites around Sept. 2000. I think it addresses this topic quite well. Should anyone be interested in contacting Hib with questions, he can be reached at finspeed@earthlink.net

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Zroners, Vettenetters and C5ers-
This thread began on the ZR-1 Net a couple of months ago with a post by
Jim Van Dorn about the successes his SCCA/Speedvision World Challenge
road race team, Pirate Racing, has had using Red Line products. The #01
Les Stanford Chevrolet Corvette Z06, driven by "Wild" Bill Cooper, the
#75 Dart Lady/Burtronics Corvette ZR-1, driven by Mark Wolocatiuk, along
with the team support vehicles use Red Line lubricants. Mr. Van Dorn's
email is reproduced at the end of this post.

Van Dorn's statements about his use of Red Line products prompted Mr. Jim
Martin of Royal Purple Motor Oil, Inc., a subscriber to the ZR-1 Net, to
reply saying that (I will paraphrase and condense) while Red Line is a
good product; Royal Purple is better than Red Line, is the best synthetic
oil available and Pirate Racing would be better off using Royal Purple.
Martin ended his post with an offer support for the team. Martin's post
included a brief discussion of some significant performances on engine
dynamometers by engines running on Royal Purple racing oils.

Jim Martin's reply prompted a discussion on the ZR-1 Net list of the
benefits of different synthetic lubricants. That discussion included an
additional post by Mr. Martin with more claims of significant performance
and reliability/durability benefits from using Royal Purple products.
Upon reading Jim Martin's emails, I emailed replies to the ZR-1 Net
requesting Royal Purple to support its claims of performance and
durability with documentation. We went back and forth on the
documentation issue one time in ZR1/N public posts then continued in a
private exchange. After several weeks, Jim Martin and I agreed that Herb
Kutz, Royal Purple's Performance Sales Manager, would meet with me and
supply the documentation to support Mr. Martin's claims of Royal Purple's
performances.

Herb Kutz and I met on Friday, 9/22. In a lunch meeting we discussed his
company's products and he gave me a stack of documents about half-an-inch
thick. I'd like to thank Herb Kutz, Jim Martin and the staff at Royal
Purple Motor Oil for their work in assembling this data.

It has taken me several days to read all the stuff.
Here is a "summary" of what I found:

Several testimonial letters saying their writers were satisfied with
Royal Purple products.

Royal Purple price data for all its products. Of interest: Royal Purple
multiweight synthetic Motor Oils (suggested for street use in gasoline
engines) have a suggested retail price of $5.35@qt.
Royal Purple synthetic Racing oils have a suggested retail price of
$9.35@qt. For reference: Red Line's suggested retail prices are:
$7.75@qt. and $7.75@qt., respectively, for equivalent products.

A body of laboratory test data from friction and wear tests. It supports
the belief that Royal Purple oils have lower friction and wear in
laboratory test situations. Fifteen brands of synthetic and
petroleum-based oils were lab tested against Royal Purple which
outperformed all of them. A brand not listed in these lab test results
was Red Line.

There is a ton of information from fleet durability testing. There was a
test of 5W30 and 10W30 Royal Purple synthetic engine oil in law
enforcement vehicles (presumably most were in highway patrol use)
conducted from 1994-1999 by the Indiana State Police. There was a second
test of Royal Purple diesel engine oil in heavy-duty trucks run in 1996
by Kroger, the supermarket chain, and a third test of Royal Purple in a
long-haul trucking application. The Indiana S.P. test was of interest
because, although it did not test performance, it validated the cost
effectiveness and durability of a 15,000 mile, extended-drain-interval
with a premium 10W30 synthetic engine oil in a duty cycle that included
some operation similar to the street high-performance duty cycle. The
Kroger test compared the durability of Royal Purple to a Mobil product of
unspecified base-stock, type and viscosity. This test documented wear
decreases and slight fuel economy increases. The long-haul truck test
compared Royal Purple to an Amsoil product (although it was not clear in
the data, my assumption was this Amsoil was synthetic) and there was a
noticeable improvement in wear rates from Royal Purple. People reading
data from that specific test might draw a conclusion that Amsoil lacks
adequate anti-wear capabilities compared to Royal Purple. All of this
fleet data shows there are durability advantages and a cost savings
(combination, labor and materials) in using a premium synthetic engine
oil in conjunction with extended drain intervals *compared to* using a
petroleum-based oil at factory drain intervals. These fleet tests did not
include a comparison of Royal Purple and Red Line.

A great deal of documentation supporting Royal Purple's statements that
its synthetic oils are capable of performance improvements when tested in
engines on the dynamometer or cars on the chassis dyno and compared to
various brands of petroleum-based oils. Some of these tests were with
oils of dissimilar viscosities, such as a 20W50 petroleum-based oil of
unspecified type ("type" meaning "motor" or "engine oil" for street use
or "racing oil" for racing) compared to a 10W30 synthetic racing oil. The
dissimilar viscosities and oil types may have skewed the test results
somewhat.

There was one chassis dyno test using a GM, 3500 series pick-up truck
powered by a Vortec 5700 engine. This test used a Dynojet 248H to compare
Penzoil 5w30 (presumably the petroleum based product) with Royal Purple
5w30 synthetic engine oil. The truck made 13 more hp and 8.2 more lbs/ft
torque after the oil change, a filter change and warming the oil to
operating temperature. That is 75% of the gain I got in my own tests on a
Dynojet after putting a Flowmaster cat-back exhaust on a GM truck having
a similar powertrain. It is an astonishing improvement.

There was test data from street high performance or racing engines. There
were results of two different engine dyno tests of sprint car engines.
The first, run by Open Wheel Magazine using a methanol-burning, 360 cuin,
sprint car engine of unknown manufacture, compared a petroleum-based oil
of unknown brand, type and viscosity to a Royal Purple synthetic racing
oil of unknown viscosity. The performance increase was notable, but, at
5hp over a 645hp baseline, not significant. Open Wheel Magazine termed
that "Not bad." The other sprint car engine test, by Midwest Motorsports,
used a 410 cuin. Rodeck alcohol sprinter and compared an unknown brand of
20W50 petroleum-based oil to Royal Purple 41, a 10W-30 Racing Oil. The
performance change was significant, at 24hp and 18 lbs/ft torque. The
power improvement, from an engine that baselined at 796hp, was about 3%.
There was a test run on a DynoJet 248H by Hennessey Motorsports, the
Dodge Viper tuner, comparing Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil of unknown
viscosity to Royal Purple 41, a 10W40 Race Oil. On Royal Purple 41, the
car made 4.2hp more and 3.5 lbs/ft torque more than on Mobil 1. This was
in an engine of about 600hp at the rear wheels. The increase was 0.85% or
0.008 times the total power figure. It's not possible for a car like that
to consistently repeat to even 1% on any chassis dyno, so the results of
this particular test are questionable.

In all this data there was only one test where Royal Purple oil was
compared to a Red Line oil. In this test, Royal Purple 5W30 engine oil
was chassis-dyno-tested against Red Line 5W30 engine oil. The car was a
1999 Ford Mustang with a supercharged engine. The power and torque were
virtually the same, regardless of which brand of 5W30 synthetic engine
oil was used. In fact, at most engine speeds where data was taken, the
numbers were identical. The biggest increase in horsepower was
0.7@5100rpm from Royal Purple and the biggest increase in torque was 3.0
lbs/ft@5100 rpm. The torque improvement was shown by the Red Line 5W30. I
should note some facts about this test: 1) that one oil produced better
horsepower and the other produced better torque at the *same rpm*
indicates the test data supplied, which appears to be a single test, is
actually data from at least two different tests. This problem makes the
results of this test questionable. It would be interesting to see Royal
Purple's all data from all tests rather than some data from each,
combined to appear as one. 2) The power improvement shown by Royal Purple
is beyond the car's ability to repeat dyno data. That, also, makes the
results of this test questionable.

This same test also pitted Royal Purple Racing 21, a 5W30 Racing Oil,
against Red Line's 5W30 Engine Oil and the Royal Purple's race oil
performance was better than Red Line's street oil performance. From
3500-5000 RPM the difference varied from 0-3hp. At 5100 and 5200 rpm,
Royal Purple was better by 5-8 hp, a noticeable gain. The test ended at
5200rpm. These differences would be expected when testing an engine oil
intended for normal street use against a racing oil intended for racing
use.

The one product that was not run in this series of tests with the
supercharged Mustang was a Red Line Race Oil.

What Royal Purple's data proves conclusively is:

1) Royal Purple oils are better than any petroleum-based oils listed in
these test results.
2) Royal Purple synthetic engine oils demonstrate better
reliability/durability when compared to a variety of petroleum-based oils
and one synthetic oil that was not a Red Line product.
3) Royal Purple 5W30 Engine Oil performs as well as Red Line 5W30 Engine
Oil.
4) Royal Purple prices its engine oils lower than Red Line and prices its
racing oils higher than Red Line.

And now, my friends, the Beacon of Reality at peak intensity:

First, let's recall the original point made by Royal Purple's Jim Martin:
while Red Line is good, Royal Purple is the best and Pirate Racing should
switch to it.

In my opinion, and I think many members of these lists might agree:
anything that's the best ought to show, at minimum, a convincing
measurable improvement and, preferably, a significant improvement.

Nowhere in this large quantity of data supplied by Royal Purple, did I
find any facts supporting Mr. Martin's statement that Royal Purple's
products perform better than an equivalent Red Line product. In fact, a
small part of Royal Purple's data seems to indicate Red Line is the
better choice, however, considering the results from the only direct
comparison of Royal Purple and Red Line are questionable; I'm going say
the data shows no difference between the two.

Nowhere in the data supplied by Royal Purple is there any proof that
Royal Purple is the "best" synthetic oil.

I should close this discussion by telling you that Mr. Van Dorn, owner of
Pirate Racing, declined Mr. Martin's offer of support and continues to
use Red Line lubricants in his race cars and support vehicles.

H. Halverson
Technical Writer
Content supplier to
automotive Internet and print media
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Patman

How could RP call their racing oil a true race oil if it has a lot of detergents in it? One of the big things with a real race oil is to have less detergents, for less chances of detonation. Also, by having less detergents, it leaves room for more antiwear additives too.

Blue Fire

so your saying that Red Line is a bit better than Royal Purple Motor Oil? or both the same in a wayż? <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

StevieZ

iTrader: (3)

I just had a very interesting conversation with someone at RP (I won't say who). It turns out as far as street oils go, between Royal Purple Redline and AMSOIL, RP is the only one of the 3 that is API certified! The others say they meet or exceed API specs but you won't find an API donut anywhere on the quart. I went into my garage and checked and sure enough they are not! This means that they can go outside the parameters of API specs in regards to formulating the additive package. What Red line will do is add higher amounts of zinc and phosphorous which can after time, become corrosive and that is not something I would want in my aluminum block! As far as the low moly count is concerned, RP uses a patented SYNERLEC technology as the main antiwear agent which allows for much less moly content and being that this is not a standard additive, it will NOT show up in regular oil analysis since they will not be looking for it. ALSO the flashpoint of the street oils is NOT 400* but 455* and even says so on their website! As far as the racing oils having less detergents to make room for other additives, this again is a falsehood. Since they are using the Synerlec technology, less standard antiwear agents can be used leaving more room for detergents. You can run the race oils for 8K to 10K with no problem what so ever. The ONLY race oil they make that has less detergents and more anti-wear is the 0W4 weight and by the labeled viscosity, you can see why!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I talked to the RP guys on the phone and they told me the RACING oil has no protective additives,He said as long as I ran it for 3500 miles or less it would be fine in a street car but didnt reccommend it longer than that </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">RP just reiterated to me that this is a total falshood.

<small>[ July 31, 2002, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: StevieZ ]</small>

Fulton 1

iTrader: (9)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> It turns out as far as street oils go, between Royal Purple Redline and AMSOIL, RP is the only one of the 3 that is API certified! The others say they meet or exceed API specs but you won't find an API donut anywhere on the quart </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Another bit of marketing. See the following AMSOIL link for more about API certification:

API Certification

StevieZ

iTrader: (3)

Fulton 1 API certification may not be important to you or myself as demonstrated by my use of a non API certified race oil, but for those with cars under warranty I do beleive it is an issue.

I asked as to why there appeared to be some shearing back of the oil in Trevor's analysis and was responded to in detail and I quote:
"First, a single oil analysis will not tell you anything; it is a starting point to be used to compare other data points. They are simply comparing "typical" API specs as advertised on the product sheet which is not a valid comparison.

There was a claim the oil had thinned to an SAE 20 at operating temperature which was "too thin" for the LS1 (I used Racing 11 for 6k miles between drains in my '00 LS1 with oil analysis with excellent results but I digress). Viscosity charts are broken down into SAE viscosities by Centistokes (Cst) and/ or Saybolt Universal Seconds (SSU) with an assumed VI (viscosity index). The chart I have assumes a VI of 95. Most synthetics, including Royal Purple, have a much higher VI therefore less viscosity change will occur through temperature thus discounting the "assumed" viscosity when analyzing an oil with a higher VI. These charts are for general reference, the only true way to gauge oil degradation is by comparing several data points. Additionally, due to having exceptional film strength Royal Purple is not as reliant upon viscosity (film thickness) as is the case with other lubricants, mineral or synthetic. We lubricate 1300+ horsepower NHRA Pro Stockers with an SAE 0w4 (Racing 2005)!!

The second step in the process if you truly find viscosity variances is to ask why; analytical thinking. Yes, higher quality oils withstand much more temperature and fuel, glycol, dirt, etc. contamination however if the viscosity did indeed change significantly between two data points, why? The same holds true with oxidation and/ or nitration. What is causing the oil to oxidize? RP 5w30 and 10w30 exceed 1440 minutes in TFOUT (thin-film oxidation uptake) testing whereas most oils, mineral or synthetic, fail in less than 300 minutes. The oil isn't oxidizing on it's own; an increase in oxidation between two data points reveals either long intervals of excessive heat or excessive contamination."

Also , I am posting a link to a PDF file containing a spec sheet for the SAE/API service grade oils made by Royal Purple
Royal Purple Specs

Patman

That still doesn't explain why Trevor's sample of RP 10w30 showed 29% oxidation in only 1250 miles. It doesn't matter if this is just one sample and not a trend, anytime an oil oxidizes that much in such a short period of time, there is cause for concern. I don't think RP is as durable as they'd like us to believe.

StevieZ

iTrader: (3)

The oil is not oxidizing on its own and the contributing factors are what should be addressed .
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't think RP is as durable as they'd like us to believe </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I will have to disagree on that one too. The place I get my oil from is Herman's Automotive and Marine in Brewster NY. They build Hi-Po motors and race themselves.They have a strictly track car that they race every weekend all year long on 1 single oil change.(You won't see me ever doing that!) They have told me that they will drain the oil out of the car just to evaporate fuel that has contaminated the oil and then return it to the car. They change once a year and have not rebuilt the motor in the last 2 seasons!!!!

<small>[ July 31, 2002, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: StevieZ ]</small>